Scotland votes no to Independence

[455driver]

I think you mean English not British and No is the answer.

I do!
Not a good mistake to make that, was it!

 

[Johnuk123]

I do!
Not a good mistake to make that, was it!

You're forgiven.

 

[yorksrob]

Miliband's knee-jerk anti-English comments could have finished Labour as far as the next election is concerned. Who would vote for a Labour party that can only form a government using Scottish MPs to make up the numbers.

Last time I looked, Milliband was suggesting that we needed a constitutional convention on the Governance of England. To this I would agree. The same old Westminster/Whitehall stitch up with a St Georges flag on top will be of neither use nor ornament to the North or South West of England.

We need proper devolution to the regions, not tinkering with voting rights in Westminster.

 

[Johnuk123]

Last time I looked, Milliband was suggesting that we needed a constitutional convention on the Governance of England. To this I would agree. The same old Westminster/Whitehall stitch up with a St Georges flag on top will be of neither use nor ornament to the North or South West of England.

We need proper devolution to the regions, not tinkering with voting rights in Westminster.

Constitutional convention my a**e, there is only one reason Milliband has blocked this and that's because it's not good for labour.
If they had no mp's in Scotland he would be saying what a cracking idea it was.
The bloke is more untrustworthy than Clegg if that's possible even some of his own mp's today are giving him stick.

If you think that a Scottish mp should decide English tax levels at the same time as English mp's being locked out from Scottish affairs you're in a very small majority or you're a troll.

 

[yorksrob]

Constitutional convention my a**e, there is only one reason Milliband has blocked this and that's because it's not good for labour.
If they had no mp's in Scotland he would be saying what a cracking idea it was.
The bloke is more untrustworthy than Clegg if that's possible even some of his own mp's today are giving him stick.

If you think that a Scottish mp should decide English tax levels at the same time as English mp's being locked out from Scottish affairs you're in a very small majority or you're a troll.

"English votes for English laws" sounds fine but by itself will rectify nothing. It wouldn't even work constitutionally. Supposing one party had the largest number of MP's as amongst the UK but a not amongst English MP's ? Who would be the Government ?

This needs careful consideration, and the balance between London and everywhere else needs sorting out as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If I'm a troll, I must be a pretty long serving one !

 

[Oswyntail]

....We need proper devolution to the regions, not tinkering with voting rights in Westminster.

I disagree. Regional devolution would result in further fragmentation, extra cost, and mainly add another level of interfering bureaucracy designed to create jobs for second-rate hacks.
We do need to work out first what is the problem we are trying to address. IMHO, the issue is that the Westminster Parliament has become too detached from the country, and its members do not understand the job they are there to do. For me, any reform must return MPs to represent their constituency, not their party. Just because South Basset returns a Liberal MP does not mean everyone there supports the Liberals on all issues. It could even be that they support the Liberals on no issues, but rejected the rabid Marxist offered by Labour and the vapid aesthete put forward by the Tories. So this MP must be allowed to vote according to his constituents preferences. First, abolish Whips and "Party Discipline", and make every vote a free vote. Secondly, publish the voting record of all MPs in all votes, to enable the constituents to check that their representative is actually representing them. Thirdly, have a "recall" system, to allow constituents to remove MPs who are not representing them.
That should improve representation. Next, abolish any idea of "Party" within all elected bodies. After all, the "Prime Minister" is meant to be the MP who can command the most support in the House, not necessarily the leader of the largest party. So get the MPs to select the PM. She can then select a cabinet from anyone - Adonis for Transport, Hague for Foreign Office etc. The best result of this would be to abolish "Party Rebels", those naughty children who make a living in the House out of stirring up trouble for troubles sake (Bill cash, for instance).
Finally, address the quality of MPs. Treble (quadruple?) their pay, remove their allowances, and stop them having any other paid employment while MPs. Make it a qualification that they must have been ten years out of full-time education, and must not have worked in any capacity, paid or unpaid, for a political or lobbying organisation for ten years.
I have probably left some things out, but I bet this would improve the quality of Government and MPs no end.

 

[bussnapperwm]

I disagree. Regional devolution would result in further fragmentation, extra cost, and mainly add another level of interfering bureaucracy designed to create jobs for second-rate hacks.
We do need to work out first what is the problem we are trying to address. IMHO, the issue is that the Westminster Parliament has become too detached from the country, and its members do not understand the job they are there to do. For me, any reform must return MPs to represent their constituency, not their party. Just because South Basset returns a Liberal MP does not mean everyone there supports the Liberals on all issues. It could even be that they support the Liberals on no issues, but rejected the rabid Marxist offered by Labour and the vapid aesthete put forward by the Tories. So this MP must be allowed to vote according to his constituents preferences. First, abolish Whips and "Party Discipline", and make every vote a free vote. Secondly, publish the voting record of all MPs in all votes, to enable the constituents to check that their representative is actually representing them. Thirdly, have a "recall" system, to allow constituents to remove MPs who are not representing them.
That should improve representation. Next, abolish any idea of "Party" within all elected bodies. After all, the "Prime Minister" is meant to be the MP who can command the most support in the House, not necessarily the leader of the largest party. So get the MPs to select the PM. She can then select a cabinet from anyone - Adonis for Transport, Hague for Foreign Office etc. The best result of this would be to abolish "Party Rebels", those naughty children who make a living in the House out of stirring up trouble for troubles sake (Bill cash, for instance).
Finally, address the quality of MPs. Treble (quadruple?) their pay, remove their allowances, and stop them having any other paid employment while MPs. Make it a qualification that they must have been ten years out of full-time education, and must not have worked in any capacity, paid or unpaid, for a political or lobbying organisation for ten years.
I have probably left some things out, but I bet this would improve the quality of Government and MPs no end.

But don't MPs have human rights too in what job they choose or what political ideals they or a group of them have?

 

[Flamingo]

The failure of "Local Democracy" is apparent in the RoI, where parish pump / pork barrel politics dominates, and politicians at all levels are unable to look at the big picture, as the electorate demands local solutions. This causes all kinds of problems, for example every local area demanding it's own A&E and Cancer Centre (despite the population not being large enough to support this), or politicians interfering in judicial and planning processes, as constitutants demand this - or offer "favours" in return.

There is a lot to be said for big central government, it is much harder to corrupt.

 

[Oswyntail]

But don't MPs have human rights too in what job they choose or what political ideals they or a group of them have?

In the real world, to be employed in any post, you generally have to have some qualification. I am suggesting that having worked outside the political hothouse for ten years is just such a qualification. Of course they may have political ideals. But they have to realise that their job is not being party members, or party politicians, but representing their constituents.

 

[Butts]

"Were you up for Portillo" was one of the defining moments of Labour's Landslide General Election victory in 1997.

In the early hours of Friday the Scottish Referendum in my view produced an early result of the same significance albeit on a much reduced scale numerically.

When Eilean Siar emerged from the Gaelic Gobbledygook as a No vote I suspected the game was up for the Yes Camp.

It was heartening to see all the former Conservative heartlands (Borders, Stirling, Perth and Kinross , Angus , Aberdeenshire, Moray, Renfrewshire, Argyll and Bute and of course Edinburgh return to the fold if only vicariously.

The next day I was talking to youngsters who were unaware the Conservatives were once a force in Scotland outwith the urban sprawl. They still control a few Councils , have MSP's and Euro members.

Is there any way back to their former glory ?

 

[ExRes]

After all the ridiculous promises he came up with and his refusal to explain any coherent and credible economic policy, Salmond has the brass neck to accuse the no campaign of tricking the voters

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29296282

Can't he just accept the will of the majority?

 

[90019]

Nothing like a gracious loser, eh?

 

[reb0118]

One Girlfriend....

How many do you have, like?..................

 

[chris89]

How many do you have, like?..................

Went back quite far to find that. I never knew i made that mistake.

Should have been 'The one, The girlfriend went to in Armadale.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

"Were you up for Portillo" was one of the defining moments of Labour's Landslide General Election victory in 1997.

In the early hours of Friday the Scottish Referendum in my view produced an early result of the same significance albeit on a much reduced scale numerically.

When Eilean Siar emerged from the Gaelic Gobbledygook as a No vote I suspected the game was up for the Yes Camp.

It was heartening to see all the former Conservative heartlands (Borders, Stirling, Perth and Kinross , Angus , Aberdeenshire, Moray, Renfrewshire, Argyll and Bute and of course Edinburgh return to the fold if only vicariously.

The next day I was talking to youngsters who were unaware the Conservatives were once a force in Scotland outwith the urban sprawl. They still control a few Councils , have MSP's and Euro members.

Is there any way back to their former glory ?

Got to remember now that Perth is now a SNP heartland with the 'big hitters' consisting of Pete Wishart and Roseanna Cunningham representing Perth and Perthshire, so I was quite surprised that they voted No.

Likewise with Stirling, I was surprised they went with a No as well.

I've never ever been a Tory supporter and I never will be, however, people that I have been speaking to who hate the Tories with a passion all say that Ruth Davidson was the stand out campaigner for the No campaign.

They've even went as far to say that because of Ruth Davidson alone, they might consider voting Tory again...

 

[reb0118]

Went back quite far to find that.

Very true, just catching up on things. Been in bed with depression since the result. I really think that a "YES" vote could have been a positive catalyst not just for Scotland but for the UK in general. This has been a missed opportunity for all.

That said life goes on and we must all put our shoulders to the wheel and work to improve Scotland and the rest of the UK. If we are better together then it must also be seen that we are.

 

[Whistler40145]

I totally agree reb0118

 

[chris89]

Very true, just catching up on things. Been in bed with depression since the result. I really think that a "YES" vote could have been a positive catalyst not just for Scotland but for the UK in general. This has been a missed opportunity for all.

That said life goes on and we must all put our shoulders to the wheel and work to improve Scotland and the rest of the UK. If we are better together then it must also be seen that we are.

I fully agree with that to no end. As mentioned a lot further back what i would have voted if i was able to do so.

Lots of issues have come up, since the apparent first Commons meeting has been delayed until Tomorrow, instead of Friday. Time will just tell to what will happen. But agree, no matter what way people voted, they have to work together, to try and bring forward what was promised. On various sites sadly seen a lot of gloating from some Yes supporters.

Either way, try not to let the results get to you to much and hope you improve as well. Especially since know what depression can do to the mind.

 

[Oswyntail]

... I really think that a "YES" vote could have been a positive catalyst not just for Scotland but for the UK in general.....

As it happens, I disagree with you. However, the very fact of the referendum has started to make some people think, and this has created an opportunity to start the reform that has been necessary since the 60s. We need to find a way for the UK to have a government that consistently works well for everyone, and where everyone feels their views will be represented, if often rejected. We need to find an effective way to regenerate the country after WW2 (yes, I am serious), and not get distracted by the idealogical battles of the 19th century.

 

[ExRes]

I fully agree with that to no end. As mentioned a lot further back what i would have voted if i was able to do so.

Lots of issues have come up, since the apparent first Commons meeting has been delayed until Tomorrow, instead of Friday. Time will just tell to what will happen. But agree, no matter what way people voted, they have to work together, to try and bring forward what was promised. On various sites sadly seen a lot of gloating from some Yes supporters.

Either way, try not to let the results get to you to much and hope you improve as well. Especially since know what depression can do to the mind.

What does that say for the mentality of yes supporters?, gloating over what ? losing? everyone in Scotland should thank their lucky stars yes didn't win

As for all this stalling and going back on their word lark, it's sunday today, the referendum result was announced on friday

 

[NotATrainspott]

After all the ridiculous promises he came up with and his refusal to explain any coherent and credible economic policy, Salmond has the brass neck to accuse the no campaign of tricking the voters

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29296282

Can't he just accept the will of the majority?

Better Together said a Parliamentary motion would be lodged in the Commons on Friday. It consists of a single paragraph of text and they were not even capable of doing that on time. Only after everyone realised they had missed their first promised deadline did they finally cough it up and it will be lodged this Monday.

In Alex's phone call to David Cameron he said that the Gordon Brown timetable for devolution was effectively irrelevant. This was the timetable that all three parties had vowed to uphold only hours before.

The three parties said they would work together to deliver devolution but at only 7am on Friday, a mere hour after the result was definitively known, did David Cameron throw a wrench between the parties by demanding the West Lothian solution to be an essential part of the devolution timetable. He had not said this beforehand at all, but he more than knew he would need to.

It is true that we must give them a few months to sort things out but initial signs are not good. The idea of the three parties constructively working together in the event of a No vote was always as much of a fantasy as any of the plans put forward by the Yes side. David Cameron has put William Hague in charge of the future of devolution - if that is the best they can do after the most politically engaging question in British history then may god help us all.

 

[Johnuk123]

Chris Grayling today :

"In Scotland justice is wholly devolved. As Secretary of State and Lord Chancellor, I have virtually no role there. But Scottish MPs today can still vote on my proposals to toughen the justice system in England and Wales. That clearly cannot continue.”

Only Milliband would argue that it definitely should continue because England with 86% of the population of the UK can go to hell as far as the labour party is concerned.

 

[Oswyntail]

... If that is the best they can do after the most politically engaging question in British history then may god help us all.

A fatuous comment, even by the standards of the Yes campaign :roll: Who would you suggest? Salmond?

 

[Butts]

Very true, just catching up on things. Been in bed with depression since the result. I really think that a "YES" vote could have been a positive catalyst not just for Scotland but for the UK in general. This has been a missed opportunity for all.

That said life goes on and we must all put our shoulders to the wheel and work to improve Scotland and the rest of the UK. If we are better together then it must also be seen that we are.

I am afraid you can't argue with 28/32 Regions Voting No (including West Lothian ).

 

[reb0118]

(including West Lothian )?

Is that a question?

 

[chris89]

What does that say for the mentality of yes supporters?, gloating over what ? losing? everyone in Scotland should thank their lucky stars yes didn't win

As for all this stalling and going back on their word lark, it's sunday today, the referendum result was announced on friday

I wouldn't suggest the majority are though. If take a look at articles on facebook, reddit (/r/scotland) You get some Yes voters calling those who voted No Traitors etc. Or saying told you so, after nothing was announced on Friday. Democracy happened. I just hope what Westminster said will happen. Or it will only add to the divide happening in Scotland.

Or saying what happened on Friday night is how all No voters act. (At least on /r/scotland, people like that are downvoted like anything)

 

[yorksrob]

As it happens, I disagree with you. However, the very fact of the referendum has started to make some people think, and this has created an opportunity to start the reform that has been necessary since the 60s. We need to find a way for the UK to have a government that consistently works well for everyone, and where everyone feels their views will be represented, if often rejected. We need to find an effective way to regenerate the country after WW2 (yes, I am serious), and not get distracted by the idealogical battles of the 19th century.

Absolutely. Amen to that !

 

[Johnuk123]

The thing is had that poll with Yes 2% in front not occurred nothing would have been offered at all, it really caused panic.

I mean Gordon Brown Britains most anonymous mp suddenly surfaced from the bogs of Cowdenbeath and promised loads of stuff that would never have seen the light of day otherwise.

 

[Butts]

The thing is had that poll with Yes 2% in front not occurred nothing would have been offered at all, it really caused panic.

I mean Gordon Brown Britains most anonymous mp suddenly surfaced from the bogs of Cowdenbeath and promised loads of stuff that would never have seen the light of day otherwise.

I wonder if that Poll was "a plant" to galvanise the No camp into action

You've obviously visited before
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is that a question?

Ho Ho , you are recovering well

 

[St Rollox]

What do members think the reason is for massive rise in membership for the YES parties?
The SNP have went from 20,000+ to 70,000 members in just over a week.