Scotland votes no to Independence

[Johnuk123]

Not as of yesterday...

Today's result has done him no harm at all as half of Scotland is firmly on his side.

I expect another referendum within 5 years especially if all the concessions fail to appear.

 

[underbank]

Today's result has done him no harm at all as half of Scotland is firmly on his side.

I expect another referendum within 5 years especially if all the concessions fail to appear.

The concessions will appear. Whether Scotland use them is a different matter. Remember that Scotland have had unused powers for some time, such as the power to vary tax rates, which they've chosen not to do.

What will also happen in return is that the Scottish MPs will lose some of their power to make decisions as to what happens in England which makes it a very shrewd move!

 

[Johnuk123]

What will also happen in return is that the Scottish MPs will lose some of their power to make decisions as to what happens in England which makes it a very shrewd move!

When William Hague was asked that this morning he was deliberately evasive and wouldn't answer because he knows Labour won't have it and it needs all party approval.

Salmond has just stood down. Milliband has refused to back the devolution plan for entirely selfish reasons, very typical and very predictable from a weasel like him.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With its yo-yo Scotland and England history in mind, I wonder how closely the residents of Berwick-upon-Tweed watched how the referendum area results came in ?

 

[Zoidberg]

And now Alex Salmond has announced that he's standing down.

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29277527

Alex Salmond is to step down as first minister of Scotland after voters decisively rejected independence.

He will also resign as leader of the Scottish National Party (SNP) after the "No" side won Thursday's referendum by 2,001,926 to 1,617,989 for "Yes".

Oops, just saw mention of that in post #543

 

[bb21]

Can only echo previous comments about it being a victory for democracy.

They seemed pathologically unwilling or unable to discuss detail. Without that they were basically asking the voters to trust that everything would be all right! The answer to every question was scaremongering. That just didn’t wash.

You two better tell that to Tommy Sheridan then , who was harping on about it being a failure for democracy and the voters being bullied by the "No" camp last night after it became apparent that the motion would not pass.

I don't think I have ever seen any politician throw so many toys out of their pram in public.

 

[Railsigns]

Salmond has just stood down.

No, he hasn't; he's announced that he will stand down.

 

[DarloRich]

Found an interesting map on the BBC web site showing results by area and %'s : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29255449

You two better tell that to Tommy Sheridan then , who was harping on about it being a failure for democracy and the voters being bullied by the "No" camp last night after it became apparent that the motion would not pass.

I don't think I have ever seen any politician throw so many toys out of their pram in public.

Interesting failure for democracy with such a massive turnout and clear participation in the debate throughout all levels of society. Hang on does he mean the result was a failure?

When William Hague was asked that this morning he was deliberately evasive and wouldn't answer because he knows Labour won't have it and it needs all party approval.

Salmond has just stood down. Milliband has refused to back the devolution plan for entirely selfish reasons, very typical and very predictable from a weasel like him.

There seems to be similar behavior from the thoroughly decent and non weasley and in no way slimy or untrustworthy chap in charge of the country who doesn't seem to think he can persuade his own party to vote through the required legislation. But he isn't a weasel in any way, not like that awful oik Milliband.

 

[Flamingo]

The concessions will appear. Whether Scotland use them is a different matter. Remember that Scotland have had unused powers for some time, such as the power to vary tax rates, which they've chosen not to do.

What will also happen in return is that the Scottish MPs will lose some of their power to make decisions as to what happens in England which makes it a very shrewd move!

Scottish AM's do not want to be seen as the big bad wolf who increase taxation or decrease benefits. They would rather that Westminster can be blamed for this.

 

[Butts]

Fair play to Salmond - he is going to do the honourable thing and fall on his claymore.

It is my belief this course of action will have a negative impact on the future prospects of the SNP.

Scottish Labour must be rubbing their hands with glee at this unexpected bonus.

 

[Johnuk123]

 

[21C101]

Fair play to Salmond - he is going to do the honourable thing and fall on his claymore.

It is my belief this course of action will have a negative impact on the future prospects of the SNP.

Scottish Labour must be rubbing their hands with glee at this unexpected bonus.

I think its more likely to benefit Scottish tories. Tories got almost as many Scottish votes as the nats in the 2010 election but due to the vote distribution, only one seat, and they ran the SNP a fairly close second in a number of non city seats.

SLAB have had the fright of their lives though, and will I suspect up their game somewhat.

 

[yorksrob]

Greater devolution will be the answer as a way of delaying the inevitable. One day there will be a clear mandate to break up the UK, possibly not in my lifetime but that's the way things are heading in my view.

The push may even come from England rather than Scotland, Wales or NI. One thing I was sure of right from the start when the referendum was agreed was that it was a win win situation for the nationalists.

You may be right. Personally I hope not and I hope that Westminster doesn't weasel out of a proper settlement that provides for the economic and political self determination that Scotland clearly aspires to within the UK. I hope this leads to a better settlement for the rest of Britain and the rest of England as well.

Maybe then, come the next referendum in a generations time we'll feel more like countrymen to each other.

 

[Oswyntail]

... the thoroughly decent and non weasley and in no way slimy or untrustworthy chap in charge of the country who doesn't seem to think he can persuade his own party to vote through the required legislation. But he isn't a weasel in any way, not like that awful oik Milliband

Ah, you are beginning to see sense at last!

.

...or perhaps not

 

[Butts]

I think its more likely to benefit Scottish tories. Tories got almost as many Scottish votes as the nats in the 2010 election but due to the vote distribution, only one seat, and they ran the SNP a fairly close second in a number of non city seats.

SLAB have had the fright of their lives though, and will I suspect up their game somewhat.

It is ironic that the Electoral System works against the Tories in Scotland for Westminster Elections. Both the SNP and Liberal Democrats are over represented.

Most of the SNP and LD seats in Scotland used to be Conservative at one time.

Younger members may not realise the Tories got 33% of the Vote at the 1979 Election and had twenty odd seats in Scotland.

 

[Abpj17]

It is ironic that the Electoral System works against the Tories in Scotland for Westminster Elections. Both the SNP and Liberal Democrats are over represented.

Most of the SNP and LD seats in Scotland used to be Conservative at one time.

Younger members may not realise the Tories got 33% of the Vote at the 1979 Election and had twenty odd seats in Scotland.

Maybe it will increase the Tories' interest in proportional representation?

 

[GarethJohn]

More control for all Nations including England will have to be in all Parties manifesto as this is what they promised.
And if England wants it's own Assembly it should be independent of Westminster and not held on a Couple of days a week their.
Labour lost the most in this Referendum as it was their traditional voters that disagreed with them the most on Independence.

 

[DownSouth]

Greater devolution will be the answer as a way of delaying the inevitable. One day there will be a clear mandate to break up the UK, possibly not in my lifetime but that's the way things are heading in my view.

The push may even come from England rather than Scotland, Wales or NI. One thing I was sure of right from the start when the referendum was agreed was that it was a win win situation for the nationalists.

A Federation with a proper Constitution (instead of people picking and choosing what laws they consider constitutional laws as it's convenient for them) is going to be the lasting answer for the UK.

I'm sure that a bunch of Constitutional lawyers from Canada and Australia would be happy to advise the British on how to make it work with the existing monarchy. The Constitution of Australia would be an ideal model to start with as it has the best defined procedure for making changes to the Constitution (including referenda that actually have proper legal force, unlike this one which would have been more correctly called a plebiscite) and there would be the chance to make various improvements (mostly changes to the separation of powers) just as its writers incorporated lessons (both copying the good and discarding the bad) from the Constitutions of Canada and Switzerland.

Fair play to Salmond - he is going to do the honourable thing and fall on his claymore.

What would Salmond know about honour, has he ever served?

Resigning is just a way to avoid being the first casualty in the SNP's inevitable night of the long knives. If he really was as proud with the campaign as he said he was in his concession speech, he would have had the courage of his convictions to stay and keep fighting the good fight.

To lose the referendum by a margin of over 10% is an absolutely massive defeat for any referendum held in a stable country, even more so for a partisan effort being pushed by one political party where proper referenda usually involve politicians of all parties being led to it by the people. I've participated in a couple of important referenda which had proper legal force (as a voter at the 1998 Australian referendum on the republic, and as a polling officer for the South Sudan secession referendum) and which had next to no level of party politics involved, because there was a broad base of support which led to them taking place. This Scotland plebiscite seems to be the complete opposite, with more features common to a normal election - concession speeches, coverage comparing swing against the SNP vote in previous elections, and then the leader standing down after a whopping great defeat.

Most of the SNP and LD seats in Scotland used to be Conservative at one time.

Younger members may not realise the Tories got 33% of the Vote at the 1979 Election and had twenty odd seats in Scotland.

Times change and parties shift, it's a fact of politics.

This fact was conveniently put to one side by the SNP in their fear campaign, with their attempts to get people to vote Yes because staying in the UK would mean being ruled by the Tories after some elections. The Tories won't get the majority of seats in England forever and neither would Scotland seceding consign the UK to a perpetual Tory government, because new leaders would come through from the other parties to take up the fight.

For a more extreme example, Barack Obama (of the Democratic Party) is a more right-wing president of the USA than any president from the Republican Party prior to George Bush. Both parties have shifted way to the right over the last 40-60 years - the Republican Party which obstructs Obama's legislation at the moment was also the same party which had a president (Eisenhower) deploy the 101st Airborne Division to enforce the racial desegregation of Little Rock Central High School against the wishes of the Democratic Party's state governor.

 

[muddythefish]

It is ironic that the Electoral System works against the Tories in Scotland for Westminster Elections. Both the SNP and Liberal Democrats are over represented.

Most of the SNP and LD seats in Scotland used to be Conservative at one time.

Younger members may not realise the Tories got 33% of the Vote at the 1979 Election and had twenty odd seats in Scotland.

I wonder who turned the Scots against the Conservative party ? Yet another of her legacies to the nation.

 

[St Rollox]

I wonder if the pro union Better Together campaign will condemn the violence in Glasgow City center last night by their supporters.

And if the Better Together people love Scotland so much why burn the Scottish flag?

 

[bb21]

Shameful scenes last night. There is no excuse for violence.

 

[Butts]

I wonder if the pro union Better Together campaign will condemn the violence in Glasgow City center last night by their supporters.

And if the Better Together people love Scotland so much why burn the Scottish flag?

Both sides would condemn the behaviour by the lunatic fringe, interesting it happened in Glasgow. It may well have a connection with the sectarian divide which still exists and tribal loyalty associated with Football Clubs in the City.

Whilst regrettable it was nothing on the scale of the Poll Tax protests a few years ago.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder who turned the Scots against the Conservative party ? Yet another of her legacies to the nation.

Whilst undoubtedly Mrs T could be one of the causes, the rise of the SNP was certainly another factor - they used to be known as Tartan Tories

Much the same as UKIP presenting a threat to the Conservatives in England rather than to Labour or LD'S.

 

[DownSouth]

Has it been positively confirmed by a neutral inquiry that any of the hooligans on either side of the riot were actually Better Together campaigners?

Staging a riot with their people on both sides of it would be an excellent way for the Yes campaigners to get back at the "Yes or else" graffiti at polling places which they allege was a false flag operation by No campaigners.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Has it been positively confirmed by a neutral inquiry that any of the hooligans on either side of the riot were actually Better Together campaigners?

Staging a riot with their people on both sides of it would be an excellent way for the Yes campaigners to get back at the "Yes or else" graffiti at polling places which they allege was a false flag operation by No campaigners.

It was pretty clear to see that the people there were Loyalist Unionists from Glasgow's import of the Northern Ireland problems. I very much doubt any of them voted Yes this year.

 

[Greenback]

Sad to see that the religious and political divide in Glasgow is still evident.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Sad to see that the religious and political divide in Glasgow is still evident.

Unfortunately it is still evident.
Having to go past George Square this morning, I took the precaution of googling for the webcam which I found soon enough, but not before coming across this gem of a report from the Press and Journal: https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...ensions-glasgow-pro-union-demonstration-held/

19 September 2014
Live webcam: Tensions in Glasgow as pro-union demonstration held
Hundreds of people crowded into Glasgow’s George Square tonight, with police separating rival supporters of the union and independence.

Officers, some on officers, earlier formed a wall to divide a large number of people waving union flags from a small group of Yes supporters.

(sic) - my italics

Its quiet enough now that this morning's Loyalist procession with its Flute band has passed, but last night my daughter and her fellow passengers were subjected to harrassment and disgusting verbal abuse on a Queen St - Edinburgh train by Yes badge wearing neds demanding to know people voted and threatening those who didn't reply or were unwise enough to say "No". Train was delayed but not sure if the polis or BTP involved.

 

[Johnuk123]

Miliband is without doubt the biggest hypocrite since Nick Clegg after refusing to back the idea of Scottish mp's not voting on purely English issues.

It's things like this that make people hate politicians who are simply doing what's best for them and bugger the rest of us.

Miliband's knee-jerk anti-English comments could have finished Labour as far as the next election is concerned. Who would vote for a Labour party that can only form a government using Scottish MPs to make up the numbers.

 

[455driver]

Without wading through this thread to see if it has been asked before-

Do the British, Welsh and Northern Irish got a vote on whether we want to keep them?

 

[Johnuk123]

Without wading through this thread to see if it has been asked before-

Do the British, Welsh and Northern Irish got a vote on whether we want to keep them?

I think you mean English not British and No is the answer.

 

[St Rollox]

Sad to see that the religious and political divide in Glasgow is still evident.

Don't get the divide part.
Both YES and No camps are very broad churches.

But only one side attracts people who would burn the Scottish flag.

Maybe that's why the nickname of the No side was Bitter Together.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Has it been positively confirmed by a neutral inquiry that any of the hooligans on either side of the riot were actually Better Together campaigners?

Staging a riot with their people on both sides of it would be an excellent way for the Yes campaigners to get back at the "Yes or else" graffiti at polling places which they allege was a false flag operation by No campaigners.

So you think the nutter element running round Glasgow shouting about the Pope??? and burning Saltires were secret YES voters.

Interesting.