Buying tickets in advance

[work-traveller]

Genuine query following my visit to a Virgin Trains ticket office:

Question to VT staff: Why do your ticket machines only allow you to purchase tickets that are valid at the time you use the machine? i.e. why will the machine not allow you to purchase an off-peak ticket (assuming it's currently peak time) or for the following day - as is the case with all London Midland ticket machines.

Answer given: Because machines aren't allowed to sell a ticket that isn't valid at that time. Also, there's nothing stopping you from purchasing an off-peak ticket and then using it at peak time.

My response: Ticket barriers, conductors and revenue protection staff would check if your ticket was valid at the time you use it. Also, what would prevent someone from purchasing an off-peak ticket from a member of staff and saying it was to be used later?

VT staff response: We would write on the ticket that we have explained that the ticket is not valid at that time.


So my basic question is:

a) Is the restricted issuing of ticket from VT machines just a VT policy and not a national ticketing policy (in which case the member of staff was being economical with the truth); and
b) Do VT staff write on off-peak tickets (purchased during peak time) that the ticket isn't valid until off-peak?

 

[talldave]

Southern seem to do it as well, see my thread here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105991.

It's a bonkers argument, because (assuming online booking is working) you can stand next to the machine and book Off Peak tickets on a website from your phone, then immediately pick them up - at any time of day (allowing for the delays in the booking being recognised in the system).

 

[work-traveller]

I suspect that someone on an 'away day' proposed this as a great way of regulating ticket use. However, as has been pointed out, it's a policy that has more holes in it than a colander.

 

[splashsquelch]

So my basic question is:

b) Do VT staff write on off-peak tickets (purchased during peak time) that the ticket isn't valid until off-peak?

To not-exactly answer the question, when I buy an off-peak (or gold carded) ticket ahead of time, e.g. the day before travel, from South West Trains, they write 'RA' on the front of the ticket. They tell me this means 'Restrictions Advised', such as not before 10am with a Gold Card.

 

[maniacmartin]

On the other hand, you can bet that if it did sell Off-peak tickets when they weren't valid lots of customers would buy them and then claim they were never told about the ticket not being valid for immediate travel, no matter how big the warnings on the TVM screen were!

 

[bb21]

I don't think TVMs are required to be impartial iirc. If tickets are required for advance travel, buying from the ticket office is a perfectly fine alternative at Euston.

I don't understand why you are pestering ticket office staff about this. What are they expected to do? If you want improvements to the TVMs then get in touch with people higher up.

 

[Greenback]

That's true, the staff have no say about how the TVM's are programmed and cannot override anything. The answers they were quoted as giving are probably the best you could expect in the circumstances.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Also, there's nothing stopping you from purchasing an off-peak ticket and then using it at peak time.

So I wonder what their answer would be to the fact you can already do that by buying a ticket online and collecting it.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....So my basic question is:

a) Is the restricted issuing of ticket from VT machines just a VT policy and not a national ticketing policy (in which case the member of staff was being economical with the truth); and
b) Do VT staff write on off-peak tickets (purchased during peak time) that the ticket isn't valid until off-peak?

AFAIK, it's network wide. I can't comment on part b, but they can note on the ticket if a passenger has been informed of the relevant restrictions.

As far as I see it....

A ticket clerk can tell you the restrictions to your face and, if necessary, write or stamp "Validity Advised" on it to tell guards and RPIs that you have been told when it is valid.

Online journey planners will tell you what ticket is valid for the journey you select, if you want to tell it you are travelling on a different service to the one you actually want to get on then that is up to you really, but if you select ToD, this is noted on the ticket and a guard or RPI will know how you got it.

TVMs don't do journey plans, they can't tell you when a ticket is valid (and if it did everyone would moan that it is just another screen you click okay on without reading, *sigh*) and they can't mark them "Validity Advised".

People, generally, will opt to buy the cheapest ticket they can, and so if a TVM offered off-Peak at 'peak time', the first thing the passenger would say when 'caught' is "Well why does the machine sell them at this time?" and we'd have a whole new line of dispute posted on the forum, with people no doubt saying that the machines shouldn't sell them or there should be [unworkable] safeguards, etc, etc.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[gordonthemoron]

is it not the case that TVMs can sell off peak tickets for the following day after about 3pm?

 

[Adam0984]

The classic example was in W Yorks on the TVMs up until a few weeks ago you could buy a concession ticket (1/2 price for disabled and over 60 with a W Yorks ENCT) and people innocently or not bought it as it was the cheapest ticket I'm not sure how and if the warning was displayed on it's usage but it's the same situation people would roll up to the TVM at 7am and buy the cheapest ticket to London a SSS for £78 when an anytime fare is needed at £160 which leads to confrontation at ticket barriers guards and revenue inspectors

 

[Stats]

TVMs don't do journey plans, they can't tell you when a ticket is valid (and if it did everyone would moan that it is just another screen you click okay on without reading, *sigh*) and they can't mark them "Validity Advised".

They display on screen the validity of the ticket when collecting ToD tickets in more detail than most of the websites you buy the ticket from, so I see no reason why the same message can't be displayed when purchasing the ticket from the TVM. If it did and people accepted without reading the screen then that's their lookout.

 

[bb21]

is it not the case that TVMs can sell off peak tickets for the following day after about 3pm?

Only Anytime tickets are sold if tickets for the following day are required iirc.

 

[TEW]

They display on screen the validity of the ticket when collecting ToD tickets in more detail than most of the websites you buy the ticket from, so I see no reason why the same message can't be displayed when purchasing the ticket from the TVM. If it did and people accepted without reading the screen then that's their lookout.

SWT TVM's advise of the restriction on the return portion of Super Off-Peak tickets to London/Clapham. Do any other TOCs TVMs do that too?

 

[afyutr]

How hard can it be to put one sentence stating the main validity of the Off-Peak ticket (from XXXXhrs / only for trains arriving XXXXhrs) and sell it at all times? Or even that main, important validity point to be printed on the ticket.

If someone buys an incorrect cheaper ticket (especially if the advice is displayed), there is a further check through gateline / RPI / guard; and possible further action against the individual.

If someone buys an incorrect peak ticket for off-peak travel then the ticket is still valid and they simply spend more money than they should have.

Pretty obvious why the TVMs won't be changed.

 

[talldave]

What really irritated me this week was that it was after 9am and the train left at 0923 and still machines wouldn't list the Southern off peak ticket, despite offering the Thameslink off peak ticket which wasn't valid until the 0932 departure.

So, inconsistent and illogical - just what I've come to expect from anything that Southern are responsible for! They'll never change it because they'll not understand the stupidity of the situation. I'll have to update on their response to my email after the obligatory month wait.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

How hard can it be to put one sentence stating the main validity of the Off-Peak ticket (from XXXXhrs / only for trains arriving XXXXhrs) and sell it at all times? Or even that main, important validity point to be printed on the ticket....

What is the main validity for a London Terminals-Edinburgh Off-Peak Return ticket?

 

[30907]

IIRC in Germany the DB machines give you the option of travel immediately/later at an early stage. DB ticketing is different, admittedly, but would an equivalent question allow 95% of pax to go right ahead and the 5% who want an off-peak or a ticket for tomorrow to be given further choices?

Particularly useful for stations with TVM but no staff.

 

[xydancer]

IIRC in Germany the DB machines give you the option of travel immediately/later at an early stage

That's correct. DB machines ask if you are buying tickets for today or later. If you choose later you enter the date you want to travel. I recently bought a Lander ticket (effectively an off-peak regional rover valid only after 0900 on M-F) for a Wednesday a week in advance.

And they work in multiple languages!

 

[mailbyrail]

German ticket machines show what can be done in the 21st century. Fares are even more complex than in the UK in many areas but the machines can cope with the Q&As needed to issue the correct fare in a range of languages.
Why would British rail companies change how they operate their machines? The normal settings are always to charge the maximum fare so the passenger overpays - profits trump fairness every time.
In fact German railways encourage the use of machines to the extent that self service tickets are cheaper.
As for Dutch railways - haven't they closed all ticket offices and only machines are available? I've not been there for several years now.

 

[northwichcat]

That's true, the staff have no say about how the TVM's are programmed and cannot override anything. The answers they were quoted as giving are probably the best you could expect in the circumstances.

They can put up informative notices next to them though, like the staff at Chester did which informed passengers travelling after 09:30 to purchase a 'northwirrallines' Daysaver ticket if making a return journey to Liverpool and not the Anytime Return offered by the TVM when you key in Liverpool.

Northern did like that when their TVMs wouldn't sell their Evening Return product, which they've now resolved by withdrawing the product! Although I seem to recall Northern put up a notice on their TVM at Stockport (next to 2 Virgin machines) saying you could use it for Ticket on Departure even if you booked your tickets from Virgin Trains.
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German ticket machines show what can be done in the 21st century. Fares are even more complex than in the UK in many areas but the machines can cope with the Q&As needed to issue the correct fare in a range of languages.

I found the ones in Munich irritating. If you know which type of ticket you need to purchase still you have to go through a 9 step process to ensure you were purchasing the correct ticket for your journey. There should be a way of bypassing the Q&As for people who know which ticket they need.

At Berlin Schonfeld airport a few years earlier there was were multi-lingual notices next to the TVMs telling you which option to select if you required a single to the city centre.