Scotland votes no to Independence

[GarethJohn]

Does anybody outside of Scotland really care if they do disappear, the Scottish people should they vote yes will have to manage if it does go pear-shaped, it may just go very well.

Yes if Scotland went down it would take a lot of UK business with it. Do you think the whole UK will suddenly stop all trading with Scotland?
A strong Scotland will benefit the UK whether its part of it or not.

 

[AM9]

Yes if Scotland went down it would take a lot of UK business with it. Do you think the whole UK will suddenly stop all trading with Scotland?
A strong Scotland will benefit the UK whether its part of it or not.

But surely, if Scotland's population is about 8% of the UK total, it would have to go bankrupt (again) before UK industry took a real hit. Apart from whisky, and maybe hydro electricity, what other important imports from Scotland would we miss?

 

[Hornet]

I saw Gordon Brown's speech and couldn't help but think why couldn't he have been that good when he was PM?

This may have already been asked (and may be a stupid question) but in the event of a yes vote, would the DfT (as they seem to dictate stock allocation these days) be able or even be obliged to instruct the leasing companies to remove locos and rolling stock from Scotland?

I've raised a similar point re: Rolling Stock. I believe an Independant Scotland would likely nationalise the Railways north of the Border. Therefore they would either have to buy up leased Rolling Stock, have to buy brand new/second hand Rolling Stock or re-negotiate leasing arrangements with the lessors, who may feel they would get a greater rate of return on thier assets, if they were leased out to English/Welsh franchises. There is also the question of Track Access charges for cross border Passenger/Freight movements. It would be up to the two DfT's to sort out the nitty gritty. It could end up a major problem, especially as it is estimated that the Scottish Banking system would need to hold £20 Billion stg in case of any Banking meltdown a la the ROI, seeing as the Bank of England will not be a lender of last resort, if Scottish finances are hit in any future financial crisis.

 

[GarethJohn]

But surely, if Scotland's population is about 8% of the UK total, it would have to go bankrupt (again) before UK industry took a real hit. Apart from whisky, and maybe hydro electricity, what other important imports from Scotland would we miss?

You wont miss any imports they will still exist did Ireland stop all trade after gaining it's independence? The UK bailed Ireland to avoid the hit it would take if it went under. Almost any economy in Europe and the World would hit the UK negatively if it failed let alone a major trading partner which what Scotland would be.
Will the UK stop all trade with Europe if it pulls out?
Would the UK stop trading with Scotland? NO.
The difference is that Scotland would decide how much it can make from it's own products.

 

[Hornet]

You wont miss any imports they will still exist did Ireland stop all trade after gaining it's independence?
Will the UK stop all trade with Europe if it pulls out?
Would the UK stop trading with Scotland? NO.
The difference is that Scotland would decide how much it can make from it's own products.

One Country that is worried about what is happening in Scotland is the ROI. The ROI have 12.5% Corperation Tax, much lower than the UK and most European Countries. It has been a major bone of contention in Ireland's bailout negotiations with the EU, with France and Germany especially critical of its low rates and tax regime, which allows Companies to use Ireland to pay minimal amounts of tax. (Google 'Double Irish').

Now, with a proposed clampdown on the 'Double Irish' tax 'scam', and the fact that whatever happens tomorrow, Scotland will have far more independence to levy their Corporation Tax at a competitive figure, there is a fear in the ROI that the Scots will place their Corporation Tax at a figure of 10%, leading to foreign firms to consider leaving the ROI and relocate to Scotland. (Google and Microsoft plus a host of other Hi Tech Industries have been mentioned). These Companies employ around 166,000 people. It will be interesting to see what happens from here on in.

 

[fowler9]

But surely, if Scotland's population is about 8% of the UK total, it would have to go bankrupt (again) before UK industry took a real hit. Apart from whisky, and maybe hydro electricity, what other important imports from Scotland would we miss?

Since a lot of UK industry is actually service industry I can't see much of a difference. I suppose Hero TSC may take all their call centres north of the border.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Yes if Scotland went down it would take a lot of UK business with it. Do you think the whole UK will suddenly stop all trading with Scotland?
A strong Scotland will benefit the UK whether its part of it or not.

Precisely. For so many issues that are 'uncertain', there is still the absolute need for an independent Scotland to survive and thrive unless the rUK wants to have a failed state on its northern border. For example, the rUK has an extreme interest in ensuring that the same level of intelligence and police service continues after independence because the alternative would be for them to deal with an extremely vulnerable state on its northern border with which it performs a great proportion of their trade having no security whatsoever, providing a weak link in the security of the rUK itself. Sovereign nations are more than capable of working together to ensure common interests are preserved. The United States has no choice but to provide Canada with considerable help in the form of the NORAD alliance because the alternative would be for its national security to be severely compromised by a weak northern neighbour. Threats about Scotland being allowed into NATO are absurd given that the territory of Scotland is essential for the security of the alliance, as it forms the southern edge of the vital GIUK gap through which all Russian naval vessels must pass to enter the North Atlantic.

One Country that is worried about what is happening in Scotland is the ROI. The ROI have 12.5% Corperation Tax, much lower than the UK and most European Countries. It has been a major bone of contention in Ireland's bailout negotiations with the EU, with France and Germany especially critical of its low rates and tax regime, which allows Companies to use Ireland to pay minimal amounts of tax. (Google 'Double Irish').

Now, with a proposed clampdown on the 'Double Irish' tax 'scam', and the fact that whatever happens tomorrow, Scotland will have far more independence to levy their Corporation Tax at a competitive figure, there is a fear in the ROI that the Scots will place their Corporation Tax at a figure of 10%, leading to foreign firms to consider leaving the ROI and relocate to Scotland. (Google and Microsoft plus a host of other Hi Tech Industries have been mentioned). These Companies employ around 166,000 people. It will be interesting to see what happens from here on in.

I would not advocate a reduced rate of corporation tax in an independent Scotland but I would advocate changing the system so that 'nice' companies have additional tax advantages that help to counterbalance the way in which 'non-nice' companies do business. Co-operatives, small/medium enterprises, companies with German-style labour relations or those that don't cause environmental damage (e.g. a bicycle manufacturer/reseller) should pay lower rates of tax than large, short-term-profit-above-all-else companies with dishonest accountants and unethical lawyers.

 

[yorksrob]

I note that the Tory party is getting hot under the collar about devo max and calling for an English Parliament.

As an Englishman born and bread I certainly don't want an English parliament which is just a chopped down version of the same old parliament as today, with first past the post making rotten boroughs out of the majority of the Country and over-centralised Government by Westminster and Whitehall on behalf of the South East and the City of London.

I'd welcome devo-max in Scotland so long as we get real and meaningful devolution to the Cities and regions of England as well.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Does anybody outside of Scotland really care if they do disappear, . . . . .

A good question, and the significant point is that the rest of the UK doesn't have a voice in the decision; so if anyone does have reason to care, they are unable to express it.

Actually, I think the English should care very much. If Scotland left the Union, then the very unsatisfactory position which England is in, whereby it has no government, will become more acute. Having shared a governement with 3 other nations for so long, each of which has its own executive or assembly, has been manageable, but for England only to be governed by a union with Northern Ireland and Wales might just be enough of a jolt to turn the attention of the electorate to the unspoken crisis in English democracy.

I note that the Tory party is getting hot under the collar about devo max and calling for an English Parliament.

That's interesting. I hadn't seen this issue as being of any interest to any UK party. In fact, its been so unspoken for so long by any of them, that I hesitate to accept that any party does see England's lack of governance as the serious challenge that I beleive it is!

Anyway, as we approach decision day, one commentator in Edinburgh has told me that the balance is so even between yes and no, that the decision is thought to be influenced by the weather!
Sunshine leads to Independence, rain leads to the union.
As the forecast is neither sun nor rain, but grey sky, still we can't tell which way it will go.

The 'yes' parade on the Royal Mile this evening looked lively!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Referendum Thursday is upon us finally and hopefully the television coverage will eventually return to a state of normality after the expected final spike expected of frenetic media euphoria...

 

[Tracked]

Referendum Thursday is upon us finally and hopefully the television coverage will eventually return to a state of normality after the expected final spike expected of frenetic media euphoria...

already I've heard someone on Radio 5 review the papers and say the headlines are all Independence stories, then say anyway & move on to the rest of the news. It's a start ...

they were talking about it for a while beforehand though ...

I think it's going to be a tight vote, no-one's going to be happy with the result, and the arguments will go on for ages ...

 

[Johnuk123]

I think it's going to be a tight vote, no-one's going to be happy with the result, and the arguments will go on for ages ...

Whichever way it goes this argument will be similar to the fallout after the miners strike.
There are still loads of families who were split apart 30 years ago and the bitterness carries on to this day.

 

[AM9]

I note that the Tory party is getting hot under the collar about devo max and calling for an English Parliament.

As an Englishman born and bread I certainly don't want an English parliament which is just a chopped down version of the same old parliament as today, with first past the post making rotten boroughs out of the majority of the Country and over-centralised Government by Westminster and Whitehall on behalf of the South East and the City of London.

I'd welcome devo-max in Scotland so long as we get real and meaningful devolution to the Cities and regions of England as well.

Probably the subject of a new thread soon after the results of this referendum is known: What about 'independence' for regions/cities in England?
Those pushing for such a change should be careful of what they wish for.

 

[306024]

Probably the subject of a new thread soon after the results of this referendum is known: What about 'independence' for regions/cities in England?

Good idea, we could start with Freedom for Tooting.

(With apologies to younger readers)

 

[21C101]

Good idea, we could start with Freedom for Tooting.

(With apologies to younger readers)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMKsR_wUSfA

 

[Butts]

Referendum Thursday is upon us finally and hopefully the television coverage will eventually return to a state of normality after the expected final spike expected of frenetic media euphoria...

And to add insult to injury the BBC are importing "A Taff" to Edinburgh to anchor their coverage - one Huw Edwards heir apparent to the great DD :cry:
I'd rather have that crackpot Frog from Llanelli !!!

Mind you at least it will be better than STV
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I note that the Tory party is getting hot under the collar about devo max and calling for an English Parliament.

As an Englishman born and bread I certainly don't want an English parliament which is just a chopped down version of the same old parliament as today, with first past the post making rotten boroughs out of the majority of the Country and over-centralised Government by Westminster and Whitehall on behalf of the South East and the City of London.

I'd welcome devo-max in Scotland so long as we get real and meaningful devolution to the Cities and regions of England as well.

You've already got one - The House of Commons
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whichever way it goes this argument will be similar to the fallout after the miners strike.
There are still loads of families who were split apart 30 years ago and the bitterness carries on to this day.

Nonsense - Butts will be working in Glasgow tonight - very close to George Square scene of a big pro-yes rally yesterday

Rumour has it Glazing/Boarding Firms are praying for a narrow No vote.

 

[Greenback]

The crackpot Frog is available and would undoubtedly be cheaper than Huw Edwards, though possibly more drunk as well.

 

[Johnuk123]

Intimidation in full swing.

 

[Flamingo]

Intimidation in full swing.

If I saw that on my polling station, I would certainly vote No!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good idea, we could start with Freedom for Tooting.

(With apologies to younger readers)

Never mind Tooting, Freedom for Pimlico!

 

[Greenback]

If I saw that on my polling station, I would certainly vote No!

As would I. Perhaps the No campaign is actually responsible for the graffiti?

Let's be honest, though, as intimidation goes, a few letters on the wall are a bit feeble. I doubt it would raise an eyebrow in somewhere like Zimbabwe.

 

[90019]

Intimidation in full swing.

I can't say I find that particularly intimidating.
It's the choice threat of the small child who hasn't thought of what they'll do yet.

 

[Johnuk123]

As would I. Perhaps the No campaign is actually responsible for the graffiti?

Let's be honest, though, as intimidation goes, a few letters on the wall are a bit feeble. I doubt it would raise an eyebrow in somewhere like Zimbabwe.

Agreed, but some people will be put off voting No they will see that and turn round. Especially when they have to run a gauntlet in and out.

A blind 75 yr old holding a No poster was punched in the face and knocked to the ground yesterday in Glasgow by 2 men.


One thing's very certain come Friday morning half of Scotland is going to be very unhappy and in shock.
In workplaces and on the streets on Friday some of the winners are going to be un-relentless taunting the losers.
How much retribution will take place nobody yet knows.

 

[68000]

I hear Ian McKenzie MP was asked by the Police to leave the vicinity of the polling station in Port Glasgow this morning. He was shouting at people going in to vote that they Vote No

There was a rally in George Sq yesterday by thousands of Yes supporters and this lot turn up



https://twitter.com/pontyphoto/status/512326137130000384/photo/1

There are a few idiots on both sides

Police Federation statement yesterday http://www.spf.org.uk/2014/09/spf-media-release-independence-referendum-2/

SPF Media Release – Independence Referendum

SCOTTISH POLICE FEDERATION
5 Woodside Place, Glasgow, G3 7QF

MEDIA RELEASE

The Scottish Police Federation represents all police officers in the ranks of constable, sergeant, inspector and chief inspector, police cadets and special constables, over 18,500 people, 98% of all police officers in Scotland.

To: News Editor
Date: 17 September 2014
Subject: Independence Referendum

In response to increased press reports and comment implying increased crime and disorder as a consequence of the Independence Referendum Brian Docherty, Chairman of the Scottish Police Federation said;

“The Police Service of Scotland and the men and women who work in it should not be used as a political football at any time and especially so in these last few hours of the referendum campaign.

As I have previously stated the referendum debate has been robust but overwhelmingly good natured.

It was inevitable that the closer we came to the 18th of September passions would increase but that does not justify the exaggerated rhetoric that is being deployed with increased frequency. Any neutral observer could be led to believe Scotland is on the verge of societal disintegration yet nothing could be further from the truth.

Scotland’s citizens are overwhelmingly law abiding and tolerant and it is preposterous to imply that by placing a cross in a box, our citizens will suddenly abandon the personal virtues and values held dear to them all.

At this time it is more important than ever that individuals be they politicians, journalists or whoever should carefully consider their words, maintain level heads and act with respect. Respect is not demonstrated by suggesting a minority of mindless idiots are representative of anything. One of the many joys of this campaign has been how it has awakened political awareness across almost every single section of society. The success enjoyed by the many should not be sullied by the actions of the few.

Police officers must be kept free from the distractions of rhetoric better suited to the playground that the political stump. If crime has been committed it will be investigated and dealt with appropriately but quite simply police officers have better things to do than officiate in spats on social media and respond to baseless speculation of the potential for disorder on and following polling day”

ENDS

 

[Greenback]

Indeed, there are a few idiots on each side, but the number is proportionally bound to be very small indeed. That's a reassuring and sensible message from the SPF.

 

[Butts]

The crackpot Frog is available and would undoubtedly be cheaper than Huw Edwards, though possibly more drunk as well.

How did you know I was referring to you

Seriously I was in Abertawe, Pays de Galles on the night of the vote to create the Welsh Assembly.

Huw Edwards was the anchor that night when the treacherous last result from Carmarthen sealed what was a very close deal, causing the "White Settlers" in Pembrokeshire to choke on their Muesli.

Edwards is a fine broadcaster, as a fluent Welsh speaker perhaps he should conduct proceedings in his native tongue. It would probably make more sense to viewers than the bull**** the Politicians will be spouting.

 

[chris89]

Bit later into the day but.

All the Scottish on here or those living in Scotland and can vote. All the best for you and your choice. Im Sure/ Hope the Majority of the UK will support, no matter what the outcome is.

Result should come apparently between half 6 to half 7.

Know other half is voting after work and already has her sticker, when she went through Waverley.

 

[GarethJohn]

Are they counting the result by Constituency or by total Votes of all Scotland ?
In other words if 60 seats Vote YES 40 Vote NO or will it be 60% of all Votes collected?

As the Tory vote can be 2nd in Wales but came if it came 2nd and 3rd in every seat it would have lost to a Party winning 1 seat but gaining 10% of all total Votes.

 

[table38]

It's a total of the entire vote (so not by constituency)

And no recounts for the entire vote, so it really could come down to just one vote!

 

[DelayRepay]

And to add insult to injury the BBC are importing "A Taff" to Edinburgh to anchor their coverage - one Huw Edwards heir apparent to the great DD :cry:
I'd rather have that crackpot Frog from Llanelli !!!

Strangely, the BBC are producing coverage in Welsh tonight, to be broadcast on S4C in Wales. However they appear not to be producing coverage in Gaelic which seems odd.

Butts, if you don't want to watch Hugh, BBC 1 in Scotland have their own coverage. For those not in Scotland, the BBC 1 Scotland coverage will be on BBC Parliament. And for those in Scotland who want the Huw Edwards, he'll also be on the News Channel.

 

[Butts]

Strangely, the BBC are producing coverage in Welsh tonight, to be broadcast on S4C in Wales. However they appear not to be producing coverage in Gaelic which seems odd.

Butts, if you don't want to watch Hugh, BBC 1 in Scotland have their own coverage. For those not in Scotland, the BBC 1 Scotland coverage will be on BBC Parliament. And for those in Scotland who want the Huw Edwards, he'll also be on the News Channel.

Only about 200,000 Gaelic Speakers so that's not a surprise.

I will be watching Huw not the amateurish BBC Scotland or STV coverage.