At what point does waiting to buy a ticket stop being reasonable?

[table38]

I've always thought it might reduce the queues at provincial stations if you could put your credit card in first, then the machine would offer you the ticket(s) you usually buy on the first screen!

 

[Techniquest]

"Let's go and have a look at the board" we say as we approach the station. If the Shrewsbury train is late we might choose Liverpool; if we have just missed the Manchester then it might be Stafford.

Or Birmingham. Or Chester.

Bit difficult to book in advance for that!

I can only recall ever doing that once, back in 2005 when I lived in Swansea. Got to the station and joined the queue, still deciding where to go and still hadn't made my mind up by the time I got to the ticket office window so ended up simply blurting out Carmarthen. Can't remember why Camarthen when I could have enjoyed a daytime trip to Fishguard (remember, at the time it was only one daytime and one late night trip to Fishguard), or indeed anywhere else, but a look at the board upon arrival got me Carmarthen.

Irritating really I didn't say Fishguard, as it was a 143 that day on the lunchtime Swansea to Fishguard and I never did get one beyond Carmarthen!

I should point out I do, sometimes, look at the board and make a decision when I get to the station, Hereford these days, but that's more to make sure there's no cancellations or delays rather than a decision-making look. Might have to do that on my next trip somewhere, just wait until I get to the station and make a decision based on the boards!

 

[jopsuk]

At Cambridge, it's common (especially at weekends) for announcements to be made to buy at destination/onboard because the queue is out the door and off towards the busstops.

I reckon with travel to London this results in a lot of free travel, as if trains arrive into the main shed at Kings Cross passengers won't see anywhere to buy a ticket but will see an open barrier.

That's with six desks, four machines and (in these situations) usually two or three staff with mobile machines. Doesn't help anyone with Ticket on Departure!

 

[jimm]

Meanwhile, back in the real world that is the Oxford station some of actually use, let's address a few points raised...

To the OP, exactly how many booking staff do you think should be on duty at Oxford at 7am on a Saturday morning, given that there are also half-a-dozen TVMs available?

Your friend got caught behind people with "complicated needs apparently". Are you suggesting buying split tickets isn't complicated? I wonder what the people behind your friend thought as they waited while her tickets were issued?

And maybe the people with "complicated needs apparently" were also travelling immediately, as is often the case at my local station where we have one window and zero TVMs, plus lots of overseas tourists, which inevitably results in much complication - and long waits at times. But you also get locals who get to the window less than 10 minutes before a departure and expect to renew a railcard, buy a ticket and travel on the said train... and they sure as hell won't step aside and catch the next one, never mind there are half-a-dozen people behind them wanting tickets.

Unless she had so little time left that she had to run from the ticket barrier and jump on a train at platform 1 as the doors closed, I fail to see how she could not have got the number for the car park off the screen. If going to platform 2, she would have had to go straight past it.

And as others said, if you don't have the number for the rail-user discount, you can still pay by phone at the standard rate. Agreed, said rate is extortionate at Oxford (though cheaper than the fine) - for a good reason. Until the current system was introduced, FGW was offering the cheapest all-day car park in central Oxford to all and sundry. The use of the number stops the office workers taking up spaces for rail passengers.

When there are several booking office staff on duty at Oxford, they will indeed use the little electronic notices above each window to say "tickets for today" and so on. But this was 7am on a Saturday with two of them there.

The Oxford barrier staff do issue tickets using their Avantix machines but their key role is to deal with people needing tickets from local unstaffed stations coming into the city who were not able to buy on board, not sell long-distance tickets, never mind splits. They will sell outbound tickets on occasion if there are no arriving services and a queue for the windows, but again, anyone wanting something complicated will likely be referred to the booking office staff.

 

[Greenback]

I'd like to know what the complicated needs were. If I was serving someone who wanted to buy a railcard I'd ask them to stand to one side while they filled out the form so that I could carry on serving others. But on this occasion it sounds like it could have been almost anything.

 

[HullMichael]

Large stations used to have separate windows for immediate travel and advance ticket purchases, but I've not seen this recently.

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Hull has windows marked like this. They are marked something like Tickets for Travel Today and Advanced Tickets/Rovers/Railcards etc. Assuming people read the signs it seems to keep things moving.

 

[dcsprior]

I don't know the official answer to the OP's question of what the point is that passengers are no longer required to buy before boarding, but what'd seem fair is to treat excessive queues as a delay. Many (all?) TOCs publish waiting time targets , such as:

East Coast: Our target is that you need not wait to buy a ticket longer than five minutes during peak times or three minutes at other times. Peak times are shown on station information posters.

Scotrail: You will be served at our ticket offices within three minutes at off-peak times. At peak times it should take no longer than five minutes to be served. We will publish the times of these busy periods at each station.​

If these were treated as a delay for the purposes of Delay-Repay/etc, then it wouldn't remove the need to keep queuing, just like other types of delays don't allow you to travel without a ticket - but it may mean its in the TOC's interests to announce "the next service from platform XXX will have pay-on-train allowed today, due to large queues at the ticket office" instead of paying out the DR

I don't believe this could work with the current targets, as they seem very optimistic in some cases. Perhaps TOCs could have a "should/aim to" time and a "must/will" time.

Hull has windows marked like this. They are marked something like Tickets for Travel Today and Advanced Tickets/Rovers/Railcards etc. Assuming people read the signs it seems to keep things moving.

As do Edinburgh Waverley and London Kings Cross, the last time I used those ticket offices (both 1.5-2.5 years ago)

 

[Marton]

Edinburgh still has. Aldo Darlington.


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[Greenback]

I don't believe this could work with the current targets, as they seem very optimistic in some cases. Perhaps TOCs could have a "should/aim to" time and a "must/will" time.

A sensible idea in my opinion. I agree that the quoted target times can be very optimistic in some places, particularly where there are staff shortages. I remember a few shifts in Reading when we were 4 or 5 down out of a total of 9 due to a mixture of unplanned absences and unfilled gaps in the roster due to high management being unwilling to recruit. It made things very difficult, and we still got stick from above about long waiting times!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

"At what point does waiting to buy a ticket stop being reasonable?"

Note the difference between railway stations and airports with regard to this particular matter and the implications then leading from this.

 

[LateThanNever]

A sensible idea in my opinion. I agree that the quoted target times can be very optimistic in some places, particularly where there are staff shortages. I remember a few shifts in Reading when we were 4 or 5 down out of a total of 9 due to a mixture of unplanned absences and unfilled gaps in the roster due to high management being unwilling to recruit. It made things very difficult, and we still got stick from above about long waiting times!

Well if the management are really that appalling then then franchises should be obliged to publish their 'targets' above their booking office windows so then staff and passengers could 'enquire' if they are not met. And if lack of adherence to the targets were then linked to compulsory discounts on penalty fares - perhaps of 100% where travel was from a station that completely failed to meet waiting targets - then that might encourage the management to pay more attention to their service.

 

[Greenback]

This was many years ago now. The targets were, of course, displayed, but not so prominently as they would have been if they were on or above the windows themselves.

Management did bring in some new faces after a few months, though I don't know how much of that was due to complaints from passengers or feedback from us.

I agree that financial penalties and greater transparency would help in focusing the minds of management on filling vacancies rather than just letting things slide. Customers couldn't understand that we were unable to magic staff up just when we needed them, and that the majority of us who were there were thoroughly sick of working overtime and rest days to try and fill the gaps a little.

I myself once did 72 hours in a week.

 

[jimm]

Well if the management are really that appalling then then franchises should be obliged to publish their 'targets' above their booking office windows so then staff and passengers could 'enquire' if they are not met. And if lack of adherence to the targets were then linked to compulsory discounts on penalty fares - perhaps of 100% where travel was from a station that completely failed to meet waiting targets - then that might encourage the management to pay more attention to their service.

You can have all the targets you like. Where I live, and in a number of adjacent rural areas, the ambulance services have been failing for years to meet the response time target to attend the most serious 999 cases. They get a slap on the wrist, told to better and then just carry on in the same way.

If we adopt the ideas you suggest, the staff would be too busy filling in forms measuring if they were achieving said targets to actually sell any boring old tickets.

As Greenback says, there are a whole lot of factors in play here, such as number of staff available to start with, sickness and other reasons for short-notice absence and, of course, those passengers with complicated needs - which, to my mind, encompasses split tickets.

I'd bet that if the passenger in question turns up at Oxford at 7am this Saturday, she would very likely get her tickets in good time. It's the luck of the draw and all the targets in the world aren't going to change that. Just look at punctuality... but that's a whole different can of worms.

 

[Deerfold]

As do Edinburgh Waverley and London Kings Cross, the last time I used those ticket offices (both 1.5-2.5 years ago)

Kings Cross still does. It has "Tickets for travel today" and "Tickets for travel later".

I'm never quite sure which I should stand it to renew (or reprint) my season ticket - but it's a dilemma I only have every 3 or 4 months.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

So, this morning about 7am, my friend got to Oxford station 20minutes before the train's scheduled departure with the intent of buying her tickets, strolling to the platform, getting the car-parking code, then enjoying a nice journey.

There were a couple of booths open, but the wait time was so long (two people having complicated needs apparently) she nearly ended up missing her train. Because of the excessive wait she ended up not getting the parking code (for mobile phone) and now has to deal with a car-parking penalty, and spent the entire ~90 minute journey worrying about it.

For bonus Irony; the reason she didn't use the ticket machines was because she had to buy a two-split ticket to save ~33% on a regular over-priced return.

The NRCoC says something about arriving a reasonable period before the train to buy a ticket. Could she just have gone to get on the train without a ticket after 15 minutes? That seems more than long enough at 7am on a weekend morning.

Have others had a similar experience where their journey was ruined at the outset by slow or under-manned ticket offices?
What are the potential solutions?

With ScotRail, five minutes is the cut off time.

 

[Flamingo]

With ScotRail, five minutes is the cut off time.

But that's a different country...

 

[SephenWorceste]

It has got worse in Worcester recently. At Foregate Street we have a Tickets for Today counter and a Travel Centre. London Midland seem unable to staff the Travel Centre, often forcing everybody to the same counter with the inevitable delays. At both station in Worcester the ticket counters are regularly closed during advertised hours . Staff take breaks, as they should, but no cover is available. One member of staff saw me and volunteered to open up on her break. I thanked her but insisted on returning later. London Midland really don't deserve their staff. Of course sometimes the ticket machine is broken too. All in all not very good. I always tried to use the local facilities but I feel I am being forced to buy online.

Best wishes, Stephen.



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[radamfi]

It is obvious that the only solution is to ensure that anyone wanting to travel immediately can use a smartcard or mobile app. If necessary, change the fare system to make this easier.

There's no need to visit a TVM in The Netherlands or Switzerland.

 

[Clip]

It is obvious that the only solution is to ensure that anyone wanting to travel immediately can use a smartcard or mobile app. If necessary, change the fare system to make this easier.

There's no need to visit a TVM in The Netherlands or Switzerland.

And we are slowly moving towards mobile and smartcard applications for ticketing.

Its also worth pointing out that we are not Switzerland, The Netherlands or any other country that may pop up in these discussions - we dont have to follow what other countries do all the time do we?

 

[radamfi]

Its also worth pointing out that we are not Switzerland, The Netherlands or any other country that may pop up in these discussions - we dont have to follow what other countries do all the time do we?

If they are doing something that is obviously better than what we do, it surely makes sense to at least look at what they do?

 

[broadgage]

It seems to me that part of the problem is the hugely complicated ticketing system in the UK. This not only adds to the time taken at the ticket office but also effectively rules out the use of TVMs for all but the simplest and local tickets.

Among infrequent rail customers there is considerable fear of huge "fines" being imposed for failing to read part of the small print.
The popular press regularly print stories of little old ladies or families being "fined" considerable amounts.
In some cases they were probably "trying it on" by use of a cheap ticket on a peak train, but other cases are probably genuine. Those who have been thus "fined" would likely in future prefer the reassurance of purchasing the tickets from a human who reassures them several times that the tickets ARE valid for the proposed journey.

It was the rail industry that introduced such huge and growing complexity, and therefore IMHO the rail industry should provide sufficient staff to sell the complex tickets in a timely fashion.

In my view, only two different fares should be payable for local journeys, peak and off peak.
Longer journeys could reasonably have three fares, peak, off peak, and super bargain.

It makes good sense to charge more at peak times and less at of peak times, but I see no merit in numerous different fares for the same journey that vary according to the time of ticket purchase rather than the time of travel.

 

[Greenback]

It seems to me that part of the problem is the hugely complicated ticketing system in the UK. This not only adds to the time taken at the ticket office but also effectively rules out the use of TVMs for all but the simplest and local tickets.

I see nothing to disagree with there. The ticketing system is a lot more complicated compared to when I was selling tickets.

Among infrequent rail customers there is considerable fear of huge "fines" being imposed for failing to read part of the small print.

I'm not sure it's so widespread. I have numerous friends and family who rarely, if ever, travel by train, but that is not because of a fear of a large fine, it's for more practical reasons.

Maybe it varies by area, as there are no PF's around these parts and the chances of getting a huge bill on a long distance seems relatively small compared to some places.

The popular press regularly print stories of little old ladies or families being "fined" considerable amounts.
In some cases they were probably "trying it on" by use of a cheap ticket on a peak train, but other cases are probably genuine. Those who have been thus "fined" would likely in future prefer the reassurance of purchasing the tickets from a human who reassures them several times that the tickets ARE valid for the proposed journey.

That's a fair point.

It was the rail industry that introduced such huge and growing complexity, and therefore IMHO the rail industry should provide sufficient staff to sell the complex tickets in a timely fashion.

Sadly, it all comes down to money.

In my view, only two different fares should be payable for local journeys, peak and off peak.

Fortunately, there is only one fare from Llanelli to Swansea, well two if you count single and return separately!

Longer journeys could reasonably have three fares, peak, off peak, and super bargain.

It makes good sense to charge more at peak times and less at of peak times, but I see no merit in numerous different fares for the same journey that vary according to the time of ticket purchase rather than the time of travel.

If you are referring to Advance tickets, then the value of these to the TOC's is in managing demand as well as creating revenue. As always, the trouble with any sort of reform will be making it revenue neutral. There are bound to be winners and losers, and the latter are likely to be very vocal about opposing any changes that leave them in a worse position.

I'm afraid that, while I recognise the problems, I can't offer any solutions.

 

[radamfi]

Southern have implemented KeyGo, which works out the best fare at the end of the day based on the journeys you have made, and debits your card accordingly. So, whilst sorting out ticketing is highly desirable, it is actually possible to create a user friendly smartcard system even with our crazy fare system.

 

[northwichcat]

Note the difference between railway stations and airports with regard to this particular matter and the implications then leading from this.

If ticket queues worked like Airports then a member of staff would come along 5 minutes before the trains departs and identify who in the queue wants the next train and who wants a later train.

 

[Deerfold]

Southern have implemented KeyGo, which works out the best fare at the end of the day based on the journeys you have made, and debits your card accordingly. So, whilst sorting out ticketing is highly desirable, it is actually possible to create a user friendly smartcard system even with our crazy fare system.

And it's a shame it's being introduced on a TOC-by-TOC basis with no national planning. Most passengers don't really care which TOC they're travelling with so the artificial boundries on such a card are an annoyance.

 

[talldave]

Southern have implemented KeyGo, which works out the best fare at the end of the day based on the journeys you have made, and debits your card accordingly. So, whilst sorting out ticketing is highly desirable, it is actually possible to create a user friendly smartcard system even with our crazy fare system.

But, sadly, it's still possible to get an even cheaper journey by splitting old-fashioned paper tickets.

That's why I shall probably be sticking to paper and have so far only used my "Key" smartcard once.

 

[Sammy h]

Most ticket offices have windows for immediate travel only to prevent this kind of thing happening.

 

[sbt]

Most ticket offices have windows for immediate travel only

Exactly NONE of the stations I use or pass regularly, which are rather busy, being SWT commuter stations, have this.

"For values of 'Most' trending towards 'A Few'."

 

[satisnek]

At both station in Worcester the ticket counters are regularly closed during advertised hours .

Seems that London Midland are having problems in this area - several times in the past few months I have found Kidderminster booking office closed when it shouldn't be.

 

[jimm]

Most ticket offices have windows for immediate travel only to prevent this kind of thing happening.

Most big ticket offices on a weekday perhaps, with a number of staff on hand but this was at 7am on a Saturday, with two staff on duty - how many do you think should be on duty at that time?

The OP gave no info as to whether the people "with complicated needs" were not also travelling immediately and I, for one, would consider buying a split a complicated transaction.

For those posting about LM stations, there have been issues around a redundancy programme and possible redeployments of staff affected, which has dragged on for months. During this, recruitment has been pretty much frozen, with inevitable problems in particular areas.