Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[muz379]

Train fares going up so commuters have to pay more so that subsidy is reduced. Rail users start looking for alternatives?

As much as that is one way to view the situation , that is not evidence that the intention behind this is to get more people into cars .

 

[fowler9]

As much as that is one way to view the situation , that is not evidence that the intention behind this is to get more people into cars .

True, but even if that isn't the intention that is obviously what is going to happen. As a regular rail user I have helped plenty of people with train fares and had them say that whilst grateful for the advice it will be cheaper for them to drive and park in a given city centre. Reduce the subsidy, make sure the TOC still gets the same profit when some people stop using the trains, no need for more rolling stock, the road use costs go to the local councils who are having to cut back. Everyone is a winner.... well not quite.

 

[Class83]

Train fares going up so commuters have to pay more so that subsidy is reduced. Rail users start looking for alternatives?

But most commuters will already pay for peak tickets. This change is likely to make their journey home less crowded and commuting by train more attractive. It may reduce the number of off-peak tickets sold (and presumably increase the costs of providing concessionary passes as the PTE will now be charged a peak fare every time a pensioner travels in the evening peak) but whether the Ticet Revenue which equals Price*Volume increases or decreases total revenue we'll have to wait and see.

 

[TOCDriver]

But most commuters will already pay for peak tickets. This change is likely to make their journey home less crowded and commuting by train more attractive.

On the evidence of last week, not surprisingly, it has made not one bit of difference. Commuter demand still outstrips supply and will continue to do so.

 

[mwmbwls]

But most commuters will already pay for peak tickets. This change is likely to make their journey home less crowded and commuting by train more attractive. It may reduce the number of off-peak tickets sold (and presumably increase the costs of providing concessionary passes as the PTE will now be charged a peak fare every time a pensioner travels in the evening peak) but whether the Ticet Revenue which equals Price*Volume increases or decreases total revenue we'll have to wait and see.

IIRC - have we not already established that the reimbursement mechanism for over sixties IPTA residents "free" travel is not on the basis of individual revenue foregone - but on the basis of a block fee from the IPTA to the TOC's , (presumably allocated by ORCATS). This block fee is an estimate informed by passenger counts which must by their very nature be on the basis of sampling. The idea that this fee will rise proportionately with every actual journey is not sound. (In the case of Merseyrail journeys this must be some form of internal transfer but for all other IPTA's this must involve real rather than wooden dollars).

 

[Deerfold]

IIRC - have we not already established that the reimbursement mechanism for over sixties IPTA residents "free" travel is not on the basis of individual revenue foregone - but on the basis of a block fee from the IPTA to the TOC's , (presumably allocated by ORCATS). This block fee is an estimate informed by passenger counts which must by their very nature be on the basis of sampling. The idea that this fee will rise proportionately with every actual journey is not sound. (In the case of Merseyrail journeys this must be some form of internal transfer but for all other IPTA's this must involve real rather than wooden dollars).

In West Yorkshire (most of) the travel is not free, but half price - the cut off point is higher than 60 too - I think only London offers travel to 60-year olds. My understanding is that the ITA pays a proportion of each ticket price. If some of these tickets are now more expensive, the amount paid by the ITA will rise too.

 

[razor89]

In West Yorkshire (most of) the travel is not free, but half price - the cut off point is higher than 60 too - I think only London offers travel to 60-year olds. My understanding is that the ITA pays a proportion of each ticket price. If some of these tickets are now more expensive, the amount paid by the ITA will rise too.

Merseytravel do as well, they issue their own version of the ITSO cards for 60-65 year olds, then once they turn 65 they get the national travel pass.

 

[Deerfold]

Merseytravel do as well, they issue their own version of the ITSO cards for 60-65 year olds, then once they turn 65 they get the national travel pass.

Thanks - I didn't know about that one.

 

[Merseysider]

Currently on the 1553 Salford Crescent - Southport service (a two-car 142) and there's no room to breathe. If the melons in power want to move overcrowding onto non-peak services, the least they can do is ensure there's actually room for said passenger shift.

 

[Chapeltom]

Having witnessed fairly abusive passengers being dealt with 'to the book' by Northern guards, I'm surprised to have not heard of any 'incidents'.

It's quite plausible that some passengers could ask for a cheap evening return, unaware they have been abolished and think they are being swindled. I remember seeing a passenger last year get very abusive with a guard who refused to sell a cheap evening return on the grounds they'd boarded at Manchester Piccadilly!

 

[northwichcat]

Currently on the 1553 Salford Crescent - Southport service (a two-car 142) and there's no room to breathe. If the melons in power want to move overcrowding onto non-peak services, the least they can do is ensure there's actually room for said passenger shift.

I'm sure the 17:06 Manchester Airport-Southport will be worse today. It's operating as 2 carriages instead of 4 due to a shortage of available DMUs alongside 20 other Northern services this evening.

 

[Starmill]

On the Penistone line today, the guard was advising everyone about the new Off-Peak restriction, and was pointing out that everyone's ticket that said 'Off-Peak' on it was not valid on that train as it left Huddersfield after 4. Unfortunately, he said this to somebody with the return portion of a Sheffield - Huddersfield Off-Peak Day Return, and somebody with a Off-Peak Return from Manchester Stations to Penistone. Mine own ticket was also a cross-boundary one, which according to the information on the Northern site, is not affected by the new restrictions (West-South Yorks and vice versa).

What was it everyone was saying about life becoming more difficult for everyone involved? I just smiled and nodded as he wasn't charging anyone "yet".

 

[Solent&Wessex]

There is no reason why it shouldn't be simple.

Unfortunately judging by some things my colleagues have asked me, and similar comments I know the managers have received at both Northern and TPE, it strikes me that some Guards / Revenue Staff have no idea what a PTE area is, have no idea of county / ticketing boundaries, are incapable of grasping the difference between a CDR / SVR, and have absolutely no idea or interest in restriction codes. There are either a lot of very thick people employed, or a lot of people that make absolutely no effort to read nor understand fairly simple briefings, or they have all inwardly digested it but chosen to ignore it.

Sadly I can't find a head banging a wall smilie on here.

 

[Starmill]

I don't know, because I'm not, but if I were a guard I think I'd be thoroughly miffed at the quagmire of restrictions that I'd have to wade through - and if that were going to be done correctly for every single passenger, it would certainly need you to stop and look things up carefully given the complexity of all of the differences nationally - just how practical is that?

Alright, the briefings might be simple enough and contain usable rules of thumb (which there are, it's just that there are exceptions) but nobody can memorise every restriction code, right? It's not like it has been made easy for you to remember in any more of a way than it is for passengers to understand.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Can they be checked by issuing an itinerary on Avantix, or does that not consider ticket validity?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'm the manchester area its not too hard to keep up with the restrictions and apart from a few disgruntled passengers (less than I thought to be far) its gone more smoothly than I thought it would. But I have had to use discretion a few times for people whom I believed to be genuine and didn't have the means to pay the excess

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I don't know, because I'm not, but if I were a guard I think I'd be thoroughly miffed at the quagmire of restrictions that I'd have to wade through - and if that were going to be done correctly for every single passenger, it would certainly need you to stop and look things up carefully given the complexity of all of the differences nationally - just how practical is that?

Alright, the briefings might be simple enough and contain usable rules of thumb (which there are, it's just that there are exceptions) but nobody can memorise every restriction code, right? It's not like it has been made easy for you to remember in any more of a way than it is for passengers to understand.

I don't expect everyone to memorise every single validity code, that is silly. What I would expect someone to be able to work out, having been told many many times and been shown maps about the boundaries of the new evening peak, that it doesn't apply for journeys from Leeds to Selby and Hull, for example.

Can they be checked by issuing an itinerary on Avantix, or does that not consider ticket validity?

The Avantix journey planner takes no account of ticket restrictions or permitted routes. In all cases it finds the quickest journey from A to B, irrespective of whether any tickets are valid for that journey. Having selected a journey, pressing the "fares" button will show all possible fares between A and B, even ones which may be invalid cue to time or route restrictions in relation to the chosen itinerary.

 

[johntea]

I bought a Wakefield to Barnsley ticket last week during the 'peak time' but it has just suddenly occurred to me this should have been off peak as I travelled into South Yorkshire from West Yorkshire?

 

[PermitToTravel]

The Avantix journey planner takes no account of ticket restrictions or permitted routes. In all cases it finds the quickest journey from A to B, irrespective of whether any tickets are valid for that journey. Having selected a journey, pressing the "fares" button will show all possible fares between A and B, even ones which may be invalid cue to time or route restrictions in relation to the chosen itinerary.

Thanks

I bought a Wakefield to Barnsley ticket last week during the 'peak time' but it has just suddenly occurred to me this should have been off peak as I travelled into South Yorkshire from West Yorkshire?

Correct - the off-peak restriction on tickets from Wakefield to Barnsley is only that they're not valid after 0930. Did you ask for an anytime return, or did the booking office or conductor choose the wrong ticket?

 

[johntea]

Thanks

Correct - the off-peak restriction on tickets from Wakefield to Barnsley is only that they're not valid after 0930. Did you ask for an anytime return, or did the booking office or conductor choose the wrong ticket?

The conductor chose the wrong ticket - I'll send them a short moan as a result

 

[PermitToTravel]

Thanks

 

[Crossover]

There is no reason why it shouldn't be simple.

Unfortunately judging by some things my colleagues have asked me, and similar comments I know the managers have received at both Northern and TPE, it strikes me that some Guards / Revenue Staff have no idea what a PTE area is, have no idea of county / ticketing boundaries, are incapable of grasping the difference between a CDR / SVR, and have absolutely no idea or interest in restriction codes. There are either a lot of very thick people employed, or a lot of people that make absolutely no effort to read nor understand fairly simple briefings, or they have all inwardly digested it but chosen to ignore it.

Sadly I can't find a head banging a wall smilie on here.

I dare say it isn't a problem confined to the railways as I'm sure other companies have staff who have the best part of bugger all idea what they are selling unless they are reading it out of a book, and even then they still don't always know

Certainly there should be some awareness of the basics (and advising that a Manchester to Sheffield SVR isn't valid in the afternoon peak is a basic and fundamental error) and with the wherewithall to maybe look up restriction codes (can the Avantix offer such?). Sadly some people have no interest in it and any new stuff either goes in one ear and out of the other or only half stays in then we end up with the misconceptions demonstrated recently

 

[djjawuk]

I've just bought an Advance from Glasgow to Huddersfield for Tuesday 7 October and it's routed me: Glasgow 1400, Preston 1623, Bolton 1700 arr Huddersfield 1813, suggesting an Advance is valid for the last two legs even though then start and end in the affected area after 1601.

The wording of the Northern publicity on the new restrictions says that it only applies to Off Peak tickets - no mention of Advances. So does this mean that Advances are still valid on some trains where Off Peak tickets aren't? I'm not surprised there's confusion!

 

[IanD]

Doesn't apply to Advances or Glasgow to Huddersfield tickets either!

 

[bb21]

Advance fares are not affected by time restrictions, on the whole.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I've just bought an Advance from Glasgow to Huddersfield for Tuesday 7 October and it's routed me: Glasgow 1400, Preston 1623, Bolton 1700 arr Huddersfield 1813, suggesting an Advance is valid for the last two legs even though then start and end in the affected area after 1601.

The wording of the Northern publicity on the new restrictions says that it only applies to Off Peak tickets - no mention of Advances. So does this mean that Advances are still valid on some trains where Off Peak tickets aren't? I'm not surprised there's confusion!

There is nothing to be confused about.

Does the journey on the ticket, Glasgow to Huddersfield, start and finish entirely within the same PTE area? No. Problem solved.

 

[Deerfold]

I've just bought an Advance from Glasgow to Huddersfield for Tuesday 7 October and it's routed me: Glasgow 1400, Preston 1623, Bolton 1700 arr Huddersfield 1813, suggesting an Advance is valid for the last two legs even though then start and end in the affected area after 1601.

The wording of the Northern publicity on the new restrictions says that it only applies to Off Peak tickets - no mention of Advances. So does this mean that Advances are still valid on some trains where Off Peak tickets aren't? I'm not surprised there's confusion!

Advances are often sold for journeys which would be peak on other tickets. I often catch the 0700 Leeds - London and see many people with advances on that train (although not for the lower price tiers and sometimes priced at almost as much as the peak single).

 

[northwichcat]

Does the journey on the ticket, Glasgow to Huddersfield, start and finish entirely within the same PTE area? No. Problem solved.

Caution needs to be applied to that approach. Burscough Bridge to Manchester STNs is not within a PTE area yet is affected.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Caution needs to be applied to that approach. Burscough Bridge to Manchester STNs is not within a PTE area yet is affected.

Is it also the case of Alderley Edge in Cheshire East is another such a non-PTE affected area where Manchester STNs is involved ?

 

[unlevel42]

Moorthorpe and South Elmsall are in West Yorkshire but have off peak restrictions to journeys that start/finish from South and West Yorkshire.
What is the reason for this?