New North Wales to Manchester train services

[Gareth Marston]

I find it bizarre that it should be cheaper to travel via Crewe to Manchester on a roundabout route involving a change, than a direct train via Warrington. But then logic never enters into the mumbo-jumbo that is free-market economics anyway.

In the absence of the ideal of complete nationalisation (which seems to be politically incorrect nowadays), we should really go back to Big Four style regional companies - or perhaps even Big Three, and combine "LMS" and "LNER" as these days there's a lot of cross-Pennine traffic. Actually make that Big Four, as it makes sense for Scotland to look after their own affairs as they're largely self-contained and have their own political system. Northern, Western, Southern and Scottish. Nice and simple. That would increase the amount of integration on lines like this and facilitate integrated timetables. Cross-Country would be the only difficulty but given they're probably centred on the old London Midland network they could be part of the "Northern" company.

A better integrated tt on the coast would have seen a DMU or two freed up to strengthen the peak turns between Chester and Manchester without causing all the chaos this extra expense LHCS set is causing trying to shoe horn it's operation in to an already mildly congested line.

 

[merlodlliw]

A better integrated tt on the coast would have seen a DMU or two freed up to strengthen the peak turns between Chester and Manchester without causing all the chaos this extra expense LHCS set is causing trying to shoe horn it's operation in to an already mildly congested line.

The LHCS carriages are owned by DB, not sure about the DVT,anyhow DB are not running this train for nothing,The return of £1.2 million to refurb the the carriages at Crewe and with an eye on hiring them out in five years,should DB fail to win the Wales & Borders franchise, if they are still interested in bidding?, my opinion of course.
No one from ATW has yet explained why the LHCS can not start at Llandudno, to save all this juggling of services from December.

 

[SprinterMan]

I have found out why the current 0715 Holyhead to Birmingham via Nantwich train will be terminated at Crewe from December. It currently is a 158 and goes to Birmingham to form an Aberystwyth train back. From December onwards it will be a 175, that returns to Chester and then the depot after working this train. This 175 overnights at Holyhead, and is the reason the 1924 current Shrewsbury to Holyhead train is split at Chester. From December onwards, the 158 working the SHR-Chester portion of the 1924 will return south with the 2G99 to Wolverhampton (and back to Shrewsbury) to form the new 6 car peak train from Shrewsbury to Birmingham. The 175 will finish it's Manchester diagram as today, then run the Chester to Holyhead portion of the current train and overnight there, ready to form the 0715 to Crewe in the morning. This spares the 158 to be used on the peak train

Strangely, there are no similar VT-only fares from Chester/North Wales to Birmingham, despite the faster time via Stafford connecting with Scotland services at Crewe.
People tend to forget that VT provides significant peak capacity on the coast, on top of ATW's standard pattern timetable.
Who knows, coordination of schedules might free up ATW stock for elsewhere.

Such tickets do exist, but are quite rare as the vast majority of the HHD/Chester to London trains don't connect properly with the Scotland-BHM-EUS trains at Crewe on account of Crewe's longer than average interchange time, menaing that as far as the ticketing engine is concerned, no connection exists. The first train of the day (0448 ex-HHD) does make this connection, and there are some cheaper tickets available (not many though because of peak times etc.)

Yes have been saying no stock available, now if the train they are proposing axing was a middle of the day service,perhaps a middle ground could be found,but to axe a very well used morning commuter service Wrexham to Birmingham is another matter,so ATW must expect a backlash. If the train is axed it will be third direct North Wales to Birmingham service lost, two are due for axing in December 2014 from Holyhead.

To be honest, the two direct trains that have been axed are of little use to anyone :P The 0514 off HHD is overtaken by Gerald between Chester & Shrewsbury and will be much better as a Manchester train, and the 0715 off HHD is redundant as the conductor tells passengers for Birmingham to change at Crewe unless you have an advance ticket :P

I find it VERY strange that the service under threat is the 0747 Wrexham to Birmingham. I would have thought the half of it that runs Crewe-Shrewsbury and then Birmingham would be much less likely to be kept, and could easily substituted for a 150 or 153 or something, or just have this pick up it's calls at the local stations. But Arriva is a law unto themselves. Good job there a people such as your good self out there to keep them in check

Adam

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Such tickets do exist, but are quite rare as the vast majority of the HHD/Chester to London trains don't connect properly with the Scotland-BHM-EUS trains at Crewe on account of Crewe's longer than average interchange time, menaing that as far as the ticketing engine is concerned, no connection exists. The first train of the day (0448 ex-HHD) does make this connection, and there are some cheaper tickets available (not many though because of peak times etc.)

Yes, I meant walk-on tickets (SVR, or CDR from Chester).
It's unusual not to make the 7-minute Crewe connection southbound (the Birmingham is often a bit late....).

 

[SprinterMan]

Yes, I meant walk-on tickets (SVR, or CDR from Chester).
It's unusual not to make the 7-minute Crewe connection southbound (the Birmingham is often a bit late....).

Ah right, apologies, my mistake :P Yeah, The Virgin Trains Only on the day tickets are excellent value. It's a shame that they can't just send the North Wales to London train out of Chester a few minutes earlier to make the connection official, but it is probably down to pathing at Crewe North Junction.

Adam

 

[merlodlliw]

Yes, I meant walk-on tickets (SVR, or CDR from Chester).
It's unusual not to make the 7-minute Crewe connection southbound (the Birmingham is often a bit late....).

LNW GW Joint & Sprinterman, Has I wish to pass on this information to an Assembly Member working for us on various ATW timetable proposals.
Is the cheaper fare. Flint to Manchester & return at £15/50 only available if bought on the VT train, also could this £15/50 fare be booked at ATWs Flint booking office? I am sure both of you have answered the question, but please confirm, has both fares £15/50 & £21/60(two routes) appear on Nat Rail.

Also thanks for the new logistics of the 0715 ex Holyhead from December Sprinterman.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is the cheaper fare. Flint to Manchester & return at £15/50 only available if bought on the VT train, also could this £15/50 fare be booked at ATWs Flint booking office? I am sure both of you have answered the question, but please confirm, has both fares £15/50 & £21/60(two routes) appear on Nat Rail.

The £15.50 SVR fare from Flint is visible on the NRE, Virgin and ATW web sites and is available via any of the usual outlets with railcard discounts etc.
It carries restriction 8A - available by any (Virgin) train, break of journey not permitted outbound.
Similar fares are available further west (Rhyl/Prestatyn £22, Colwyn Bay/LLJ £29, Bangor £32, HHD £36).
From Chester, there is no SVR fare but there is an SDR at £13 and a CDR at £10.50 (valid after 0900).
No fare from Wrexham on the single daily service.
The fares generally undercut ATW by about 25%.
Of course, there are limited services on VT from the coast (3 early Up/late Down trains and a couple off-peak), but hourly from Chester.
Connections to/from the Euston-Manchester at Crewe are 17m eastbound and 21m westbound.
There are (expensive) 1st class options too, but you do get free meals.

This was the press item last December: http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about...ins-way-from-north-wales-to-manchester-937776
For some reason it is illustrated by a picture of Watergate Street in Chester, which doesn't have a lot to do with the promotion!

 

[merlodlliw]

The £15.50 SVR fare from Flint is visible on the NRE, Virgin and ATW web sites and is available via any of the usual outlets with railcard discounts etc.
It carries restriction 8A - available by any (Virgin) train, break of journey not permitted outbound.
Similar fares are available further west (Rhyl/Prestatyn £22, Colwyn Bay/LLJ £29, Bangor £32, HHD £36).
From Chester, there is no SVR fare but there is an SDR at £13 and a CDR at £10.50 (valid after 0900).
No fare from Wrexham on the single daily service.
The fares generally undercut ATW by about 25%.
Of course, there are limited services on VT from the coast (3 early Up/late Down trains and a couple off-peak), but hourly from Chester.
Connections to/from the Euston-Manchester at Crewe are 17m eastbound and 21m westbound.
There are (expensive) 1st class options too, but you do get free meals.

This was the press item last December: http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about...ins-way-from-north-wales-to-manchester-937776
For some reason it is illustrated by a picture of Watergate Street in Chester, which doesn't have a lot to do with the promotion!

Thank you for a very comprehensive response,
Bob

 

[adrock1976]

I'm not sure if I'm posting in the right thread or not, as the question that I am asking could come under this one, the Liverpool - Manchester electrification, or Ordsall chord threads.

As I understand the present situation, the Llandudno - Manchester Piccadilly service runs via Warrington Bank Quay and then the Grand Junction line onto the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. The Swansea/Cardiff - Manchester Piccadilly service that runs via Newport, Hereford, and Shrewsbury runs from Crewe via Wilmslow and Stockport.

Would it be theoretically possible for the service arriving from Llandudno to then form the service to Cardiff/Swansea and vice versa? This would obviously reduce the layover time at Piccadilly island platforms and reduce the congestion there when Ordsall chord is up and running. For this to work, there would obviously have to be sufficient layover time at either Warringtom Bank Quay (4 platforms, so should not have a detrimental effect on Preston/Birmingham/London services), or at Stockport/Manchester Airport if revised to run this way (bit of a challenge to insert additional layover time at Stockport I know).

In peace

Adam

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm not sure if I'm posting in the right thread or not, as the question that I am asking could come under this one, the Liverpool - Manchester electrification, or Ordsall chord threads.

As I understand the present situation, the Llandudno - Manchester Piccadilly service runs via Warrington Bank Quay and then the Grand Junction line onto the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. The Swansea/Cardiff - Manchester Piccadilly service that runs via Newport, Hereford, and Shrewsbury runs from Crewe via Wilmslow and Stockport.

Would it be theoretically possible for the service arriving from Llandudno to then form the service to Cardiff/Swansea and vice versa? This would obviously reduce the layover time at Piccadilly island platforms and reduce the congestion there when Ordsall chord is up and running. For this to work, there would obviously have to be sufficient layover time at either Warringtom Bank Quay (4 platforms, so should not have a detrimental effect on Preston/Birmingham/London services), or at Stockport/Manchester Airport if revised to run this way (bit of a challenge to insert additional layover time at Stockport I know).

In peace

Adam

It would have to leave Manchester Picc straight away to clear the island platform, have traincrew relief which is frowned on here and also pay around with catering trolleys. Not feasible.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It would have to leave Manchester Picc straight away to clear the island platform, have traincrew relief which is frowned on here and also pay around with catering trolleys. Not feasible.

The paths either side of Piccadily are also somewhat set in stone and don't tie up
Getting across WCML at Crewe on the flat is also another issue with patching.

 

[Philip]

A few years back the 15:05 Carmarthen to Manchester was really the service to Chester because it ran into platform 14 at Manchester and immediately formed the 20:16 to Chester. The inbound service from Llandudno shunted to Mayfield loop then went into the main station to form the 20:34 Cardiff service. It has been done sort of just not regularly.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The idea might have more legs after the Piccadilly/Oxford Road platform upgrades with Northern Hub (though this will be in the new W&B franchise).
But then if electrification reaches Chester that will change things again.
Crewe is probably the place for an extended (5min?) layover - it happens often enough today one way or another.

 

[merlodlliw]

A few years back the 15:05 Carmarthen to Manchester was really the service to Chester because it ran into platform 14 at Manchester and immediately formed the 20:16 to Chester. The inbound service from Llandudno shunted to Mayfield loop then went into the main station to form the 20:34 Cardiff service. It has been done sort of just not regularly.

In FNW days everything 175 was based on Chester for service, prior to ATW all services from Manchester to Cardiff were another toc using 158s serviced I think at Canton.
I am sure the future will be electric from Chester to Manchester, the importance for the North Wales wires is not a key priority with the new Secretary Of State for Wales, whereas with David Jones(North Wales MP) the predecessor it was key.







In todays Welsh Government reshuffle, I note Edwina Hart remains in charge of Railways.

 

[PHILIPE]

Do we know who will be driving the new Loco Hauled yet. Are Chester being trained ?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Do we know who will be driving the new Loco Hauled yet. Are Chester being trained ?

Shrewsbury conductors

 

[merlodlliw]

Shrewsbury conductors

I have been told using Shrewsbury conductors with experience of Mark 3s,is a major reason why the train wont start at Llandudno.
Mark Isherwood AM has written to ATW asking why the train will only run from Chester on the first Manchester.
I am aware of Chester ATW drivers who have experience of class 67 & DVT,one of them writes on this forum. Has for training others, I am sure this will happen,

 

[Swirlz]

I have been told using Shrewsbury conductors with experience of Mark 3s,is a major reason why the train wont start at Llandudno.
Mark Isherwood AM has written to ATW asking why the train will only run from Chester on the first Manchester.
I am aware of Chester ATW drivers who have experience of class 67 & DVT,one of them writes on this forum. Has for training others, I am sure this will happen,

A Shrewsbury conductor will taxi to Crewe LNWR to prep the train and, with a Crewe driver, will bring it into Chester ECS.

A Holyhead driver then takes charge, with either a Llandudno Junction or Holyhead conductor.

LLJ conductors are being trained up for LHCS at the moment.

Shrewsbury do not sign Manchester or Warrington.

 

[Welshman]

A Shrewsbury conductor will taxi to Crewe LNWR to prep the train and, with a Crewe driver, will bring it into Chester ECS.

A Holyhead driver then takes charge, with either a Llandudno Junction or Holyhead conductor.

LLJ conductors are being trained up for LHCS at the moment.

Shrewsbury do not sign Manchester or Warrington.

Thank you for that explanation.

Although I still don't see why the Shrewsbury conductor and Crewe driver couldn't take it either ECS or in service to Llandudno or the Junction, for the Llandudno Junction or Holyhead conductor to take-over from there, rather than their presumably being taxied or riding on the cushions to Chester.

I wonder if the fact that LLJ conductors are being trained on LHCS at the moment means it could start back again from Llandudno at the May 2015 timetable change?

 

[Swirlz]

Thank you for that explanation.

Although I still don't see why the Shrewsbury conductor and Crewe driver couldn't take it either ECS or in service to Llandudno or the Junction, for the Llandudno Junction or Holyhead conductor to take-over from there, rather than their presumably being taxied or riding on the cushions to Chester.

I wonder if the fact that LLJ conductors are being trained on LHCS at the moment means it could start back again from Llandudno at the May 2015 timetable change?

Shrewsbury and Crewe depot don't sign beyond Chester, so they can't bring it to Llandudno.

A Holyhead driver would have to make his way all the way to Chester just to take it ECS back to Llandudno.

Llandudno Junction conductors are only being trained to cover for when Holyhead men are short.

It isn't practical to have a train prepared at Crewe LNWR, brought ECS to Chester, have a change of traincrew, ECS to Llandudno, then all the way back to Manchester.

The Holyhead driver, even if he did pass Holyhead-Chester, then went Chester-Llandudno-Manchester-Llandudno would be well overdue a PNB, before even getting to Manchester, so it really isn't going to work.

 

[Welshman]

Shrewsbury and Crewe depot don't sign beyond Chester, so they can't bring it to Llandudno.

A Holyhead driver would have to make his way all the way to Chester just to take it ECS back to Llandudno.

Llandudno Junction conductors are only being trained to cover for when Holyhead men are short.

It isn't practical to have a train prepared at Crewe LNWR, brought ECS to Chester, have a change of traincrew, ECS to Llandudno, then all the way back to Manchester.

The Holyhead driver, even if he did pass Holyhead-Chester, then went Chester-Llandudno-Manchester-Llandudno would be well overdue a PNB, before even getting to Manchester, so it really isn't going to work.

I am again grateful for your inside knowledge as to why my amateurish ponderings from the comfort of my armchair with a glass of red at my right hand are not really workable.

 

[Swirlz]

Do we know who will be driving the new Loco Hauled yet. Are Chester being trained ?

No.

Holyhead drivers only.

 

[The Planner]

Holyhead only sign via Warrington and Chat Moss dont they? I've heard it is also a mobile fitter job in case it fails en-route.

 

[Swirlz]

Holyhead only sign via Warrington and Chat Moss dont they? I've heard it is also a mobile fitter job in case it fails en-route.

Correct.

Chester are the only depot that sign Cheshire Lines (via Northwich).
The other diversion route is Chester-Crewe-Warrington-Manchester, but again nobody at Llandudno Junction or Holyhead sign that way either, just a handful at Chester sign via Winsford.

Chester would have been the best depot to have trained for LHCS, but with 60 conductors and 60 drivers, it would have cost a fortune in training costs, and taken ages! At least at smaller Llandudno and Holyhead depots, it's easier to manage.

 

[PHILIPE]

Shrewsbury and Crewe depot don't sign beyond Chester, so they can't bring it to Llandudno.

A Holyhead driver would have to make his way all the way to Chester just to take it ECS back to Llandudno.

Llandudno Junction conductors are only being trained to cover for when Holyhead men are short.

It isn't practical to have a train prepared at Crewe LNWR, brought ECS to Chester, have a change of traincrew, ECS to Llandudno, then all the way back to Manchester.

The Holyhead driver, even if he did pass Holyhead-Chester, then went Chester-Llandudno-Manchester-Llandudno would be well overdue a PNB, before even getting to Manchester, so it really isn't going to work.

Could be relieved at Llandudno Jn or Chester by another Holyhead Driver who has worked something earlier there.

 

[Swirlz]

Could be relieved at Llandudno Jn or Chester by another Holyhead Driver who has worked something earlier there.

So what time exactly do you want the Shrewsbury conductor to prep the train at Crewe LNWR for it to be at Llandudno for such early departure?

Starting it from Llandudno involves massive diagram changes for Shrewsbury guards, Crewe drivers, Holyhead drivers and guards and Llandudno Jn guards.

There might not even be an earlier path available (possessions etc) to get the train, even as ECS to Chester/Llandudno from Crewe LNWR.

 

[Gareth Marston]

So what time exactly do you want the Shrewsbury conductor to prep the train at Crewe LNWR for it to be at Llandudno for such early departure?

Starting it from Llandudno involves massive diagram changes for Shrewsbury guards, Crewe drivers, Holyhead drivers and guards and Llandudno Jn guards.

There might not even be an earlier path available (possessions etc) to get the train, even as ECS to Chester/Llandudno from Crewe LNWR.

The chaotic effect of a non standard insertion is well explained and only goes to show that a better coordinated tt along the north wales coast between VT and ATW would have been a better solution to produce extra DMU's for the peaks between Chester and Manchester and the Holyhead boat train.

 

[The Planner]

Doubt VT would see it that way if it means tinkering with the West Coast.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Doubt VT would see it that way if it means tinkering with the West Coast.

Certainly not with any detriment to the hourly Chester to Euston service which has been one of the biggest improvements in rail in recent years.

 

[merlodlliw]

A Shrewsbury conductor will taxi to Crewe LNWR to prep the train and, with a Crewe driver, will bring it into Chester ECS.

A Holyhead driver then takes charge, with either a Llandudno Junction or Holyhead conductor.

LLJ conductors are being trained up for LHCS at the moment.

Shrewsbury do not sign Manchester or Warrington.

Thank you for such an excellent breakdown of staff to run the Loco Hauled service, however I understand the loco will replace a DMU on the first run Crewe to Chester, I note you mention into Chester ECS?.

The chaotic effect of a non standard insertion is well explained and only goes to show that a better coordinated tt along the north wales coast between VT and ATW would have been a better solution to produce extra DMU's for the peaks between Chester and Manchester and the Holyhead boat train.Gareth

I have to agree with you,I mentioned previous I travel to Rhyl often and find it remarkable a small town in winter has trains to Chester at 0623/0638/0653/0703, only two of them are ATW franchise services,the other two are VT & Welsh Governments Open Access service.