Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[muz379]

You've said the changes won't affect anyone. She's said that anybody holding an off-peak ticket will be facing a huge extra charge.

What she said is accurate. What you said is not.

I have time and time again acknowledged in this threat that these changes will effect shift workers and leisure travelers . Being a guard who regularly checks tickets I do see that some people travel on off peak tickets between 16:01 and 18:29 . So if you would like to point out where I said nobody would be effected by this .

However what she said was factually inaccurate .I have quoted her words again as it seems you have not read them properly . She was talking about services between Liverpool and Manchester between 16:01 and 18:29 and she said

For anyone using the Manchester-Liverpool service at that hour, the journey is about to get £4.20 more expensive each day, with an anytime return costing a hefty £18.90.

she said that anybodyusing the service will be hit by an increase which is factually not correct and you know it .If she had said anybody with an off peak ticket I would not have accused her of shoddy journalism .

None of the season ticket holders that showed me their season tickets on the service I was working in the "evening peak" today where hit by any increase in fares . so its not anybody that will be effected it is a smaller group of travellers . More about them later .

Where is the factual inaccuracy? The afternoon fare has gone up 117%, and this will affect a significant number of leisure travellers and shift workers. I don't think the reports are "scaremongering" at all, especially as they all reference Northern Rail's response of "pay up or don't travel".

The MEN story suggests that there is no longer an off peak fare between wigan and Manchester . It says this

Wigan to Manchester Piccadilly return rises from £4.20 to £9.10 (up 117 per cent)

This suggests that there is no longer a fare between wigan and Manchester which is £4.20 . Which you and I both know is a complete Lie .

Most of the passengers (both those holding anytime and those holding off peak tickets traveling on and off peak ) that have been confused and complaining to me today have started with something like "I read in the paper that the fares have doubled today " This to me suggests they have read the story in the paper and been Misled into thinking the fare has gone up 117% on all services .

I actually stopped A passenger traveling from Manchester to Stalybridge from buying an anytime return from me because she was traveling before 16:01 and was not planning on returning to Manchester until at least 20:00 and so the more expensive return the story in the paper convinced her she was going to have to buy turned out not to actually be applicable to her .

One passenger didn't believe me when I told him if he traveled before 4 or after 6:30 he could still get an off return for £4.20 because he had read in the paper the fare was now £9.20 between wigan and Manchester .

So yeah thanks to the MEN for that one misleading and confusing passengers .

I dont blame serco for all of the abuse staff are going to receive I blame stories like that for whipping up the hysteria . If they printed the facts which are evening peak restrictions meaning anybody wishing to travel between 16:01 and 18:29 must have an anytime ticket , anytime returns cost more then I would have no issue , it is the way they have suggested just as the guardian piece does that all passengers on all services will be paying £9.20 to return between Wigan and Manchester .

I understand what you're trying to argue- that it isn't such a big deal because the morning travellers won't be affected- but I don't think that's true. A lot of people will be facing fare increases of 120% in the next month, because this Tory government would rather extort money from the poorest in society rather than cut Serco's obscene profits.

But a larger group of people wont be seeing any increase either . Like I said I worked a peak service between Manchester and Southport today , and when I managed to get out to do tickets only 2 people out of all of the passengers traveling who I managed to check the tickets of had off peak returns . Majority of the tickets presented to me where season tickets . And for these travelers there will be no 120% fare increase at all .


My personal opinion is , I feel sorry for those that work shifts or are part time or are having to make an essential journey in the evening peak because they will be hit if they have to travel in the new evening peak to and from work and for some journies it is quite a hefty increase for those used to buying off peak tickets .

I dont feel as sorry for leisure travelers , they make a choice to travel their journey is not essential like those who use the train to get to work . If they cannot afford to travel in the new evening peak then they either get an off peak train or dont have a day out , it is not as if they have been priced off every train running every day majority of services are still off peak services . The restrictions have also not gone anywhere near the weekend when majority of the leisure travelers will be traveling . Before I worked on the railway if I was making a leisure journey I would always wait until after half 9 in the morning because then it was cheaper and the train was not as busy even now with my free travel if I go out walking or something on a rest day I will wait until later in the morning to travel because it is not as busy .

please do explain why it is acceptable to make people wait from 6 until half 9 in the morning for them to travel off peak but suddenly not so acceptable to ask tell them that they also cant travel off peak for 2 and a half hours in the evening as well . I think the amateur dramatics can be done without when it comes to leisure travelers in the evening peak tbh . They can wait just as they have to in the morning .

I would love to fly in business class when I go on holiday , but the airline wont lower the fare just because I am a leisure traveler so because I cannot afford it I chose to fly at some obscure time in economy class sometimes from an airport a coach ride away just so I can do so cheaper . You cut your cloth accordingly .

Although I am sure you will continue with your argument about the poorest being hit , because those traveling into Manchester of an evening from places like Alderly Edge,Hale and Bramhall to have a £70 steak and some £10 cocktails in the restaurant one of my friends works in before moving onto the theater are the poorest in society that are being hit hard by these restrictions .

Just how ridiculous the situation is is shown by Serco's internal briefings. If you start a journey in the off-peak you won't be allowed to continue it during the peak, unless it's a direct train. Cue argument after argument with passengers who think they've done the correct thing in going home early, and find that they may as well have stayed in the shops in the first place.

This is one aspect of the restrictions that is annoying , it penalizes people for the fact that there is not a direct service between destinations that they are traveling between . I completely agree that the restrictions should be when you started the journey not if you are changing in the Peak .

It will also be a pain . Because some services that work through MCV and some dont . Take the 15:15 from HUD to WGW , this runs straight through VIC . However other services terminate in vic with the same unit then forming another service . shortly afterwards .

As an aside, does anybody know what the most expensive (to the TOC) way of paying for a fare is? If they're going to try and get 30p out of me, I'd like to make it as difficult and expensive as possible for them.

I hope the guards have thick skins, because they're going to need them. I don't understand why Serco are struggling to keep their staff, it's a complete mystery.

All methods of payment are probably equal in cost , card costs them something to process , although being a big organization im sure that the actual cost per transaction will be nominal . Cash it costs them for someone in the paying in point to count it etc but then probably equals out with card in the end . I suppose you could pay them in 30 single one pence pieces although this is awkward for the guard not the organization . And as an aside some of the excesses are going to be a bit more than 30p , and bronze coins are only legal tender up to a pound so the guard would be within their right to refuse that as payment .

As for thick skins , indeed it is going to take some time to bed into the new restrictions and some abuse will no doubt be taken from the passengers , you have to have thick skin as a guard anyway because even prior to this passengers can be nasty sometimes .

Personally I actually think the removal of cheap evening returns and evening rangers is going to cause the most aggravation when someone has been out for a few drinks or is going out for a drink and has had a few at home already and thinks the guard/ticket office clerk is trying to rip them off because the fare was £2 last week and now the guard/ticket office clerk wants £4 off them .

May already have been discussed but I assume railcards can still be used for the afternoon peak?

The conductor on the 6pm Leeds to Knottingley service had a rather difficult time getting access to his cab never mind checking if people had the right ticket! In fact rather than explain the ticket changes over the tannoy he decided to explain how to get in touch with Northern Rail to complain about the short formed unit! (Actually been a few months since I last caught this service but I never ever remember it being so busy!)

This is one of the reasons that this is not going to work , because most of the trains that people will be traveling on in the evening peak will be like sardine tins and I doubt the STM barrier staff are going to pick up on off peak tickets

If you did decide to go out and do tickets in the evening peak on a sardine tin service , by the time you have go to a passenger with an off peak ticket , and started to do the excess it is going to be time to go back to the door controls .

 

[Starmill]

Unfortunately Northern's vew is that, although Penistone is in South Yorkshire and Moorthorpe in West Yorkshire, the restriction still applies because Moorthorpe is still considered to be part of the South Yorkshire travel area (in addition to West Yorkshire). The CDR restriction text confirms this has been applied.

Wait - cake? Eating!? Gah!

 

[northwichcat]

Of course, this is totally unfair. Restrictions should be defined very differently to how these have been done if you actually want to influence peak flow.

I think it's stupid that passengers with off-peak tickets between Stockport and Navigation Rd/Altrincham/Hale aren't allowed to use the 16:58 or 17:58 Stockport-Chester, which have spare seats but they can use the busy 15:17 and 18:17 Piccadilly-Chester services (departing Stockport at 15:30 and 18:30 respectively.) Price passengers off the quiet trains on to the busy ones. :roll:

 

[Tetchytyke]

I reckon this is a pathetic cheap ploy by Northern to do a U-turn a couple of months into the restrictions and look like the people's heroes, when they are infact.... crooks.

Interestingly their twitter feed is going into overdrive to make sure that everyone knows it's DafT who imposed the changes, rather than Serco who chose to ramp up fares rather than explore other options (e.g. make less profit).

I maintain that DafT's intention is to neuter the PTE tickets, with the intention of neutering PTE tickets elsewhere in the country (i.e. London). And they're testing it in an area that predominantly doesn't vote Conservative, although they need to watch out with that as marginal constituencies like Shipley will decide the general election.

 

[yorkie]

Not for Penistone to Huddersfield.

Yes, Penistone to Huddersfield is ok.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It started Monday the 8th between the hours of 16:01 and 18:29 and if you start your journey at say 15:55 and have to change trains you need to get a any time ticket which to me is wrong

It's not how other operators word their restrictions, and is a daft and unfair way of doing it.

 

[mwmbwls]

A general reminder that if shorthand three-letter abbreviations are to be used, please use the correct ones as they can cause confusion, and in the case of station names, the correct CRS code.

Some seemingly correct shorthand abbreviations do have other meanings, and can cause confusion, eg. OPR is actually the shorthand for Super Off-Peak Return, not Off-Peak Return (which is mostly SVR - from the old Saver Return). If you are not sure, please write out the full name.

I hate having to point this out as it probably makes me sound petty, but for the sake of clarity, please do use the correct codes (especially if they are three-letters long) as it is a necessary evil.

Your point is not petty - however moderation requires a blend of both pointing out errors and offering guidance as to good practice. Perhaps next time you might like to provide a handy glossary of codes, or reference to a handy, publicly accessible source, that might assist those less familiar with these matters. A broad based community such as ours will inevitably contain lay and expert members The only difference is that nobody starts as an expert.

 

[bb21]

Your point is not petty - however moderation requires a blend of both pointing out errors and offering guidance as to good practice. Perhaps next time you might like to provide a handy glossary of codes, or reference to a handy, publicly accessible source, that might assist those less familiar with these matters. A broad based community such as ours will inevitably contain lay and expert members The only difference is that nobody starts as an expert.

Point taken, however this is not always possible to do with fares, for the very simple reason that different fare types may now have the same name (thanks to "simplification") so there is now no way of being certain what the fare type is given a name without looking it up explicitly. For example, Super Off-Peak Return for London to Banbury is OPR, whereas Super Off-Peak Return for London - Doncaster is SSR (obviously from the old SuperSaver Return pre-simplification), similarly Super Off-Peak Day Return for Woking - London is SCO, whereas the same name for Luton - London is CBA. A useful source is BRFares, which gives fare type abbreviations for all fares of any particular flow, but apart from that, it is impossible to give an exhaustive list, realistically.

For stations, NRE provides a handy link to allow anyone to look up the CRS code of a particular station.

 

[button_boxer]

I'm struggling to see how this is reflected in the restriction codes.

It's not reflected in any individual restriction code, but rather in the fact that journeys starting outside the affected area take a different restriction code from those that start within it, and that code does not impose afternoon peak restrictions at all.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I suppose you could pay them in 30 single one pence pieces although this is awkward for the guard not the organization . And as an aside some of the excesses are going to be a bit more than 30p , and bronze coins are only legal tender up to a pound so the guard would be within their right to refuse that as payment....

Officially, the railway will accept up to 20p per transaction (inclusive) in 1p and 2p coins, and I don't think "legal tender" is the term you are looking for.

 

[maniacmartin]

Legal tender is the term if buying on board, as you have already travelled, thus a debt is created

 

[Starmill]

Fulfillment of your debt obligations vs use of advertised accepted payment methods? Go!

 

[northwichcat]

Legal tender is the term if buying on board, as you have already travelled, thus a debt is created

Technically wouldn't the 'debt' just be the fare to the next station, unless you're not travelling beyond the next station?

 

[noddingdonkey]

Here's a scenario: A passenger turns up at the station intending to travel on the 18.10 service, and dutifully buys an Anytime ticket. The train turns up and is rammed so the passenger is unable to board and has to wait for the next train in an hour's time, 19.10 in the off-peak period.

Common sense and fairness would suggest that the passenger is entitled to a refund of the difference in price between the Anytime and the Off Peak fares in those circumstances. The same logic would apply when the last peak train of the day is cancelled.

Would it be cynical of me to think that no refund would be forthcoming, at least not without an admin fee that makes it not worthwhile to claim.

 

[muz379]

Officially, the railway will accept up to 20p per transaction (inclusive) in 1p and 2p coins, and I don't think "legal tender" is the term you are looking for.

Why would I not be looking for "legal tender"
In fact checking again according to the legal tender guidelines from the royal mint they match exactly with the amounts advertised on that national rail page . I got it wrong bronze coins are only legal tender up to 20p

http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines

Legal tender is the term if buying on board, as you have already travelled, thus a debt is created

this was my thinking on the matter

Technically wouldn't the 'debt' just be the fare to the next station, unless you're not travelling beyond the next station?

Would it not be would the debt not be where they intended to travel to ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interestingly their twitter feed is going into overdrive to make sure that everyone knows it's DafT who imposed the changes, rather than Serco who chose to ramp up fares rather than explore other options (e.g. make less profit).
I maintain that DafT's intention is to neuter the PTE tickets, with the intention of neutering PTE tickets elsewhere in the country (i.e. London). And they're testing it in an area that predominantly doesn't vote Conservative, although they need to watch out with that as marginal constituencies like Shipley will decide the general election.

Evening peak restriction were applied in Birmingham several years ago.

I notice you only ever mention Serco in your tirades against Northern.
Don't Abellio also have something to do with it?

 

[northwichcat]

Would it not be would the debt not be where they intended to travel to ?

So if you're travelling from Walsden to Leeds and the conductor comes around before Todmorden then the debt is the fare to Leeds even if before you get there public transport gets shut down between Dewsbury and Leeds due to extreme weather conditions?

 

[muz379]

So if you're travelling from Walsden to Leeds and the conductor comes around before Todmorden then the debt is the fare to Leeds even if before you get there public transport gets shut down between Dewsbury and Leeds due to extreme weather conditions?

I dont know hence why I posed it as a question , I could quite easily be wrong not that in a practical sense it makes any difference

I would have thought the contract was formed when you boarded the train and thus the terms of the contract would have been where you intended to travel to .


otherwise I could only issue a UPFN for a journey that someone has actually made which is not correct .
Say in your suggested story someone boards the train at walsden intending to travel to leeds with no money , ticket or other means of payment . I could issue them with a UPFN for the fare to Leeds . The UPFN is an agreement between the passenger and the toc that they will pay the debt they owe at a later date

 

[Philip C]

Since this station opened in October 1990, it has only ever been named as Woodsmoor station and Stockport council recognise Woodsmoor as the correct area name.

Sorry, Paul, but in your original posting (#683) you indicated that the BBC had called the stations at Woodmoor (singular wood) Woodsmore. Hence my posting.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Evening peak restriction were applied in Birmingham several years ago.

Predominantly by Cross Country, same in Manchester and Leeds for flows priced by TPE.

I notice you only ever mention Serco in your tirades against Northern.
Don't Abellio also have something to do with it?

I suppose they do, to be honest. I'll remember to call them crooks too. Their management of Greater Anglia would justify it

 

[mwmbwls]

Now the plan is actioned - has there been any noticeable reduction in congestion in trains leaving the city centres?

 

[bnm]

Predominantly by Cross Country,

Within the West Midlands boundary fares are predominantly set by the PTE. It was they, in 2010 who introduced the evening peak restrictions on Off Peak tickets from the Birmingham stations, Jewellery Quarter and Five Ways.

 

[matthewluck]

Now the plan is actioned - has there been any noticeable reduction in congestion in trains leaving the city centres?

4 carriage 156 from Deansgate -Southport approx 16:40 left several passengers on the platform, full and standing right up to every door

 

[northwichcat]

4 carriage 156 from Deansgate -Southport approx 16:40 left several passengers on the platform, full and standing right up to every door

That'll be the 16:28 Deansgate-Southport. Any passengers for Salford Crescent and Bolton would have only had a 5 minute wait until the next service, so maybe the Southport service needs a pick-up only restriction at either Salford Crescent or Bolton to ensure that no passengers for Westhoughton and stations beyond are left behind.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

otherwise I could only issue a UPFN for a journey that someone has actually made which is not correct .

In issuing a UFPN to a station beyond the next one isn't that because the passenger has admitted that they are intending to travel to said station without a ticket or means to pay for a ticket? Couldn't in theory a UFPN be issued by rail staff before the passenger has boarded the train if they tell station staff they have lost their wallet/had it stolen etc?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
TfGM have again highlighted the alternative was station parking charges and said they had no say in the withdrawal of evening returns:

Evening Peak Restrictions were implemented on 8th September
following an agreement within the Direct Award between the DfT and
Northern Rail. The restrictions apply to Northern Rail and to other
operators’ services across Greater Manchester. The introduction of
evening peak restrictions by Northern Rail was one of three options
presented to Northern Rail as part of their interim franchise agreement
in order to raise revenue (The other options were: across the board
ticket price increases or the introduction of car parking charges.).
Northern Rail is operating the extended franchise until February 2016,
but with a reduced subsidy. Government policy is to reduce taxpayer
funding of the railways.

TfGM was not party to the negotiations between the DfT and Northern
Rail that led to the decision to implement Evening Peak Restrictions.
However, TfGM has agreed to assist Northern Rail in the delivery of this
plan and has worked closely with Northern Rail to address concerns
over multi-modal ticketing and communicating these changes to
customers. Northern Rail has launched an extensive communications
plan to brief all retail staff and its revenue contractor ahead of the
changes. The changes will not affect the majority of Northern Rail’s
passengers who already use season tickets and full peak returns. It is
also hoped that introduction of the restrictions will reduce crowding on
evening peak services.

http://www.transportforgreatermanch...l_rail_service_performance_and_station_issues

 

[Starmill]

Well it didn't take long did it for Northern to oversell me a ticket! Less than a week I make it. The difference was only 15p so I didn't notice, but I wasn't asked what time I was completing my journey and a ticket clerk simply assumed that because I had begun a journey at around 1530 I would be needing an Anytime ticket. As ever, these new restrictions are simply being used as yet another method for the TOC to try to rip off it's customers, and have absolutely nothing to do with giving anyone a more comfortable journey. It's totally not acceptable for anyone to sell a ticket on the assumption that the person will be travelling in the evening peak, if it is after the morning peak has ended.

 

[spargazer]

no it was cut and paste, is that the answer you seek?

 

[Starmill]

Within the West Midlands boundary fares are predominantly set by the PTE. It was they, in 2010 who introduced the evening peak restrictions on Off Peak tickets from the Birmingham stations, Jewellery Quarter and Five Ways.

Indeed, but aren't the West Mids restrictions only on trains from those stations to other stations in the PTE area? So no evening restrictions on contra-peak journeys even if they are from the City Centre. And no evening restrictions at all for people who commute to Wolverhampton, say. Or people making journeys that are not to or from Birmingham at all. And they're for a shorter time. And they don't appear to apply to the nNetwork Daytripper.

So I think my point about Northern's restrictions being by far the harshest and least targeted and blanket-implemented in the country stands.

 

[Hadders]

Well it didn't take long did it for Northern to oversell me a ticket! Less than a week I make it. The difference was only 15p so I didn't notice, but I wasn't asked what time I was completing my journey and a ticket clerk simply assumed that because I had begun a journey at around 1530 I would be needing an Anytime ticket. As ever, these new restrictions are simply being used as yet another method for the TOC to try to rip off it's customers, and have absolutely nothing to do with giving anyone a more comfortable journey. It's totally not acceptable for anyone to sell a ticket on the assumption that the person will be travelling in the evening peak, if it is after the morning peak has ended.

Why don't you simply state exactly which ticket you want, eg 'an off-peak day return from x to y'.

I think it's a poor show that evening restrictions have been introduced but the fault lies with the DfT for wanting to reduce the subsidy.

 

[Starmill]

Why don't you simply state exactly which ticket you want, eg 'an off-peak day return from x to y'.

I think it's a poor show that evening restrictions have been introduced but the fault lies with the DfT for wanting to reduce the subsidy.

I just asked for 'a single' - it would never have been a problem before. The fault lies with Northern for the crudeness and stupidity with which the restrictions have been imposed.

 

[Howardh]

Right. If I go from Blackrod to Picc (return) starting in the evening peak, it's £8.80 return. If I go one stop further away and go from there, Adlington, it's a much cheaper £5.70 return.
So anyone living half-way between the two....have a little walk top Adlington and save yourself £3.10 and have an extra pint!

 

[Merseysider]

Why don't you simply state exactly which ticket you want, eg 'an off-peak day return from x to y'.

Even when you ask for a specific ticket, the clerk might not sell you it.

For some journeys, it'll be cheaper (given that you can't change trains after 4pm to continue your journey) to buy part off-peak and part peak. It's ridiculous.