An open letter to Southeastern (Managing Director)

[EM2]

I refer you to S Poole's book on being a SE Station Manager (OK 1980's) to find the detail on how tricky it is to run a service down there. ..

This sounds interesting, do you have the title?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

This sounds interesting, do you have the title?

"Behind the Crumbling Edge" - basically his career on BR - he is still in the industry - top man , was a trainee in my year (1979) - some excellent material on his time as ASM at Woolwich Arsenal and in SE London.

 

[VauxhallandI]

As someone who has been on the 'staff side' of meet the manager events, I have always been pleasantly surprised how nice the majority of southeastern punters are.

There is of course always the occasional individual who wants to talk about the latest in traction motor inverter power ratings, or non-standard seat moquettes, and the slightly more frequent individuals that shout "you should be ashamed of yourself" before carrying on to their jobs in a bank. But on the whole most punters who bother to stop seem to be satisfied.

Responding to one stereotype with another is ok?

Should all Bank employees be ashamed?

 

[LLivery]

I agree that it's always been bad. You can add BR to that list of TOCs as I can attest. I would therefore suggest that the correct question is "why?".

I examined the network in some depth a few years ago, and my conclusions at that time was that there was a lack of direction from on high, because while there were a few bright spots there was no consistency. The fact is that managers turn over very slowly, and many categories of staff too, so that making a change is not an easy task - most of the same people are there from franchise to franchise, and they don't easily change their attitude.

SE also suffers from some inbuilt issues:

1. Services pass through London Bridge - the most congested station in the country (they actually TT more trains in the peak than the theoretical maximum). Hopefully the changes to this station as part of Thameslink will improve things there.
2. It has the slowest services in the SE due to the infrastructure.
3. Due to the slow speeds and the rather higgledy-piggledy nature of the routes, it takes a lot of time to cover the area.

I happen to know Dave Statham quite well and I think that he's one of the 'good guys', and he has a strong focus on customer service. However I think even Jesus H Christ on a Harley Davidson would struggle to turn SE around quickly.

Its a shame because it's not hard to work out Southeastern's problems. Most people are just discontent with things easily fixed (apart from punctuality). But it seems to most people like SE just don't care, just rake in money, get ''awards ''and franchise extensions.

The stations are unloved, many still having those NSE departure screens big as TVs from the 90s which you can just about read from the right angle - while the Penge East footbridge is a total cesspit. More staff, clean Networker floors and a higher frequency on the Hayes Line on Sundays would be start. Those simple improvements not being in the franchise agreement just shows how bad the franchising system is/was.

 

[yorksrob]

As someone who has been on the 'staff side' of meet the manager events, I have always been pleasantly surprised how nice the majority of southeastern punters are.

There is of course always the occasional individual who wants to talk about the latest in traction motor inverter power ratings, or non-standard seat moquettes, and the slightly more frequent individuals that shout "you should be ashamed of yourself" before carrying on to their jobs in a bank. But on the whole most punters who bother to stop seem to be satisfied.

I would have thought someone wanting to discuss moquette design might be a nice change in that circumstance.

Bring back trojan by the way.

 

[ScotGG]

The Networkers were "cutting edge" suburban trains when introduced - trashed by the locals when Connex took over (who paid no attention to the interiors - something like 95% of the windows were etched - course they had to pay to restore them to inherited state) - of course it would help if a good number of the users actually paid something towards their journeys

Indeed. People can evade fares so easily on much of the SE network. It's the same lack of staffing that allows it that also allowed many of the people to travel who vandalised trains. I can barely remember the last time I got on an SE metro train and there wasn't at least one person with feet on seats in every bloody carriage. I know this goes on everywhere but it's the scale of it on SE - on-board staff could do something about that and people that don't give a damn about other passengers.

The best time post-privatisation was definitely post connex and pre-govia when Directly Operated Railways run it. The only time I got a sense that the organisation cared at the top - of course there have always been great members of staff.

Another main criticism is lack of innovation eg better deals on travelling off peak on existing routes, pushing for new services off peak, increased frequencies etc. Maybe they are pushing for all this behind closed doors to the DfT? If they are they are very quiet about it and unsuccessful.

With TfL in charge I'm pretty confident you'd see a 10% + minimum increase in metro passengers numbers in year 1, and that's being conservative.

 

[yorksrob]

I have to say, I know that trains are longer down there, but Northern get a lot of stick, yet its a very rare day up here that I don't get a ticket check.

 

[HH]

I have to say, I know that trains are longer down there, but Northern get a lot of stick, yet its a very rare day up here that I don't get a ticket check.

Well lots of trains don't have conductors, but in my experience, even those that do aren't checked very regularly. This is particularly obvious on the 'schoolkids' trains. Not that I blame the conductors much on those trains; there's some right little scrotes travelling to/from school.

 

[yorksrob]

Well lots of trains don't have conductors, but in my experience, even those that do aren't checked very regularly. This is particularly obvious on the 'schoolkids' trains. Not that I blame the conductors much on those trains; there's some right little scrotes travelling to/from school.

Fair point, though we get the unruly up here as well.

 

[Busaholic]

I can't see that installing ticket gates everywhere is an answer to the problems outlined, nor extra staff employed on the revenue side. The fare evaders won't just simply pay up, but will either walk away or find some other way to scam the system. Perhaps,as in the tax world, we should talk about fare 'avoiders' like the hedge fund manager and his £36,000 'avoidance' with no stain on his character (drinks all round at the club) and the 'evaders' who will probably be younger, unemployed and possibly black who, of course, represent a much bigger threat to society. We may get a whole new sub-section of 'fare lawyers' whose jobs it will be to see that the rich do not have to pay the advertised fares, or at the very least have an equivalent amount repaid in tax. Oh, sorry, you can't get a rebate if you pay no tax in the first place, but we're working on that terrible iniquity.

 

[ScotGG]

Most fare evaders would pay up and there's no practical alternative if going from, say Welling to New Cross. It's just opportunistic behaviour as the chance of being caught is so low.

The tube is gated far more widely as is the overground in south London and places like the old Silverlink north London line, and that's the model to follow, as it works. The rest of what you say is a bit of a nonsense. I must say I havn't seen this army of fare lawyers for wealthier people, enabling them to not pay tube fares, in the decades that barriers have been common on that system...

 

[starrymarkb]

There is of course always the occasional individual who wants to talk about the latest in traction motor inverter power ratings, or non-standard seat moquettes, and the slightly more frequent individuals that shout "you should be ashamed of yourself" before carrying on to their jobs in a bank. But on the whole most punters who bother to stop seem to be satisfied.

The Infamous Peter Skuce?

 

[ScotGG]

I see Southeastern are running short trains today on the Greenwich line - 5 car instead of 10. One of the biggest events all year is going on at Woolwich and Greenwich this weekend - a ship festival on the Thames will hundreds of thousands of people (possibly more than a million) attending.

It's on 2 diagrams. Not a good time to run 2 half length trains. Running short started a while ago & the website lists it all the way up to the end of service. Can they not possibly do something at the depot to sort it? No flexibility?

 

[hassaanhc]

I see Southeastern are running short trains today on the Greenwich line - 5 car instead of 10. One of the biggest events all year is going on at Woolwich and Greenwich this weekend - a ship festival on the Thames will hundreds of thousands of people (possibly more than a million) attending.

It's on 2 diagrams. Not a good time to run 2 half length trains. Running short started a while ago & the website lists it all the way up to the end of service. Can they not possibly do something at the depot to sort it? No flexibility?

Loads of 376s at Dartford. They'd have to find a driver to take it out, path to get it wherever, and might disrupt "maintenance". There were at least two 10-car consists out, but also saw two 5-cars. Also several 6-cars and 8-cars. They're not the only TOC to not bother solving short formations on weekends.

 

[Class 170101]

DOO for five car operation but non-DOO for ten car operation perhaps?

 

[ScotGG]

DOO for five car operation but non-DOO for ten car operation perhaps?

Nah Southeastern are DOO for all services on metro.

hassaanhc - true they're not the only TOC to not bother solving short forms on weekends, and normally it wouldn't be worth it but this weekend is a bit different and I think extra trains have been laid on as this weekend is the biggest event on the line for the whole year. Perhaps the London marathon might be the other.

Just seems a bit funny to put on an extra service for the crowds but then run 2 of the standard at half length for most of the day, which wasn't diagrammed. Fair enough things happen but no contingency to fix it seems a bit poor, unless it has been done as crowds using the line less than expected?

I understand that they'd have to find a driver to take it out, path it, and maybe disrupt maintenance, but it suggests a big lack of resiliency to not be able to do anything on such a major weekend. Not one driver to do it, or one spare train? Bearing in mind the services today are a fraction of Mon-Sat it seems likely a few are spare. In terms of paths it would be from Slade Green to Plumstead, or maybe they've could've substituted and used stock at Plumstead sidings?

 

[Tetchytyke]

SouthEastern have the most modern of any of the south London TOCs. Both Southern and SWT's metro services are operated by trains that are at least 15 years older than the Networkers. The problem is not a lack of investment in modern rolling stock, the problem is that the TOC simply can't be bothered looking after the modern equipment that they've been provided with.

Bear in mind that SouthEastern are STILL allowed to impose bigger fare rises than the rest of the country, supposedly to pay for the HS1 services you can't travel on unless you pay yet more money out. And just so as people don't get clever and use the "classic" express trains instead, they add stops and slow the journeys down to make them useless to morning commuters.

I have to laugh at people suggesting that people who don't like SouthEastern should "move somewhere else". Never mind suggesting instead that the greedy fat cats at GoVia do their job properly given the obscene profits they make, no, that would be too difficult. The extent that some people will go to on here to defend the greedy fat cats is amazing. Privatisation does nothing other than steal money from the improverished fare payer and the taxpayer and hand it, wrapped in a big ribbon, to the millionaire greedy directors.

The reason why the TOCs won't resolve the weekend short forms is simple: it costs them money. It's the same in my neck of the woods, sticking four carriage trains out on a Saturday morning (even when there's an FA Cup semi-final at Wembley) because "maintenance" means half the 350 fleet has to sit in Bletchley yard all weekend. I never knew "maintenance" was short for "we pay Siemens/Alstom/Bombardier per mile and we'd rather you were squashed like sardines than spend the cash". Funnily enough the TOC by me is also run by GoVia.

 

[ScotGG]

I didn't know southeastern could still add on bigger fare rises than other TOCs. Doesn't seem fair at all given to penalise the area of London and home counties which is the poorest - the generally deprived SE London and north Kent areas, which are nowhere near as prosperous as much of south London and south west London. And to pay for a High Speed service no metro user ever uses (it'd be a curious commute to go from, say somewhere in Bexley borough out to Northfleet, walk 30 mins to cross to Ebbsfleet as no one could be bothered to knock heads together and have a link between the two very close stations, to go St Pancras then tube to work place), and many couldn't afford to anyway.

As for Networkers, yep they aren't looked after, despite being newer than some southern and South West stock (though the newer Desiros and class 377s are usable by many 'metro' commuters) but you wouldn't know by comparing the refurbed Class 455, for example, to a tatty, unrefurbished Networker.

No refurbs planned either. Southern users can look forward to a multitude of new stock, Thameslink the 387s then 700s, South West gets new stock and refurbed stock like class 458/5 and 466, and LO gets a 5th car. SE is last in line - the forgotten relative in many ways, but until the constituencies served get more vocal and the MPs respond I don't see the DfT shifting tack.

And its Sunday - the frequencies right now -
Sidcup line - only every 30 minutes
Bexleyheath line every 30 minutes
Greenwich line has a boost due to the Tall Ships festival this weekend but normally less and some poor folks only get one every 30 minutes like Erith
Hayes line - every 30 minutes
Chistlehurst line - every 30 minutes though some stations get long distance stopping

Still, very poor for such busy and populated areas. So poor compared to LO.

 

[hassaanhc]

Nah Southeastern are DOO for all services on metro.

hassaanhc - true they're not the only TOC to not bother solving short forms on weekends, and normally it wouldn't be worth it but this weekend is a bit different and I think extra trains have been laid on as this weekend is the biggest event on the line for the whole year. Perhaps the London marathon might be the other.

Just seems a bit funny to put on an extra service for the crowds but then run 2 of the standard at half length for most of the day, which wasn't diagrammed. Fair enough things happen but no contingency to fix it seems a bit poor, unless it has been done as crowds using the line less than expected?

I understand that they'd have to find a driver to take it out, path it, and maybe disrupt maintenance, but it suggests a big lack of resiliency to not be able to do anything on such a major weekend. Not one driver to do it, or one spare train? Bearing in mind the services today are a fraction of Mon-Sat it seems likely a few are spare. In terms of paths it would be from Slade Green to Plumstead, or maybe they've could've substituted and used stock at Plumstead sidings?

It seems all the Cannon Street to Slade Green (and return) trains (plus some only to Plumstead) were all extras, run using 376 stock. There were definitely spares, even accounting for those that are dud and can't run in service (surely all of them can't be broken?) I was on the 2B71 1507 Slade Green to London Cannon Street (Greenwich at 1533) which was the full 10 coaches (376 pair) and there was no shortage of seats on it, so lower loadings than expected could be a reason :?.

The reason why the TOCs won't resolve the weekend short forms is simple: it costs them money. It's the same in my neck of the woods, sticking four carriage trains out on a Saturday morning (even when there's an FA Cup semi-final at Wembley) because "maintenance" means half the 350 fleet has to sit in Bletchley yard all weekend. I never knew "maintenance" was short for "we pay Siemens/Alstom/Bombardier per mile and we'd rather you were squashed like sardines than spend the cash". Funnily enough the TOC by me is also run by GoVia.

Don't know about London Midland but SWT seem good with extra services and longer trains for events. There were matches at Twickenham yesterday and they ran a few fast 455 pairs Waterloo>Twickenham before the match and return direction after the match, something that has gone on for ages. Usually it leads to the Hounslow services becoming 8 cars too. Also events at Ascot lead to extra trains. They did come under fire in January for minimum length trains on weekends with special offers on their tickets, which I think they learned from this summer. Even when there are no events, I can see why people are annoyed at having paid a premium to travel by train, outside the peak times too, and still are having to stand because their trains are min length, seeing unit after unit sitting around in sidings.
However the "maintenance" line does get wheeled out by SWT and I'm not convinced about it being completely true. How much maintenance do these modern trains require? Surely they're not suggesting the Desiro trains are unreliable?

 

[90019]

A person on an average income of say 25k can never buy even slightly close to work. God help you if you're on less than that.

My brother earns less than that, is in his mid 20s, and last year bought a rather nice shared ownership two bedroom flat (and that's a flat, not a cupboard) in zone 2 - Clapham, to be precise.


It can be done.

 

[ScotGG]

It seems all the Cannon Street to Slade Green (and return) trains (plus some only to Plumstead) were all extras, run using 376 stock. There were definitely spares, even accounting for those that are dud and can't run in service (surely all of them can't be broken?) I was on the 2B71 1507 Slade Green to London Cannon Street (Greenwich at 1533) which was the full 10 coaches (376 pair) and there was no shortage of seats on it, so lower loadings than expected could be a reason :?.

The crowds would perhaps be going from London Bridge to Greenwich at that time as fireworks and some other events start in the evening?

90019 - that seems VERY unusual in the current environment. He would need a hefty deposit which at that age is normally only possible if lucky enough to have wealthy parents, as someone who is on average salary (or less) will not be able to save up enough for a deposit due to very high prices and historically low interest rates. Is there a partner involved too? Historically it was 4.5x single earnings for a mortgage as the limit but now that's gone 4.5 x joint, which assumes one parent never wants to take time off for children which is a rotten state of affairs. And shared ownership seems a bit of a wheeze - as people are increasingly priced out they instead get to own a smaller and smaller %. The young today have it far worse than the over 40's did. Help to buy is supposed to help but really it just maintains prices at very high levels compared to post war averages, so the buyer has more to pay off over a longer period.

 

[HH]

I didn't know southeastern could still add on bigger fare rises than other TOCs. Doesn't seem fair at all given to penalise the area of London and home counties which is the poorest...

The reason for this is historical. During the first franchises fares rose at RPI-1% adjusted for performance. SE performance was poor so their prices fell quite a lot during this period. Generally prices per km were much cheaper than other services in LSE. The RPI+3% is really an attempt to get them back into sync.

Oh and there are plenty of very well off places in Kent...

 

[anme]

You assume that he a) travels into London and b) that's the only journey that he does.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How about moving somewhere that isn't served by SE? Move to Romford, move to Elstree, move to Slough.

Depopulating the southeast is an interesting solution. But why stop at the southeast? Bad trains in the north? Move them all to Notting Hill! Things will be fine once we all live in Kensington and Chelsea.

 

[nottsnurse]

Oh and there are plenty of very well off places in Kent...

Indeed. I don't recognise SE London as being the deprived wasteland some are making it out to be either.

The area surrounding the stations near where I have relatives in SE London (Penge East/West, Kent House and Clock House) are hardly deprived areas. Yes they are 'economically diverse' but they're not ghettos!

Kent House is a fine example, it has a private estate (Barnmead Rd) right outside the door.

 

[Philip C]

Just to give a flavour of life with SouthEastern.

This morning a train failure at/near Tunbridge Wells has brought the Hastings Line service to a halt. National Rail Enquiries and Journey Check (on SouthEastern TOC web-site) states that it is OK to travel on the Hastings-Ashford trains to Ashford; BUT tickets are NOT available via High Speed services.

Talk about seizing defeat out of the claws of victory!

As a foot-note it is my understanding that the extra fares rises over recent years on this TOC have been applied to the Hastings Line but, clearly, there is a determination that no benefit will accrue!

 

[Tetchytyke]

My brother earns less than that, is in his mid 20s, and last year bought a rather nice shared ownership two bedroom flat

And the emphasis there is "shared ownership". Most of the flat doesn't belong to him, it belongs to the developer/housing association. And that can cause all sorts of headaches when you come to sell.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Just to give a flavour of life with SouthEastern.

This morning a train failure at/near Tunbridge Wells has brought the Hastings Line service to a halt. National Rail Enquiries and Journey Check (on SouthEastern TOC web-site) states that it is OK to travel on the Hastings-Ashford trains to Ashford; BUT tickets are NOT available via High Speed services.

Talk about seizing defeat out of the claws of victory!

As a foot-note it is my understanding that the extra fares rises over recent years on this TOC have been applied to the Hastings Line but, clearly, there is a determination that no benefit will accrue!

To give a flavour of life with Southeastern:

I was heading towards Tunbridge Wells from London after the train failed. We were 24 minutes late into Tonbridge but the guard informed us regularly during the delay and apologized that the trains was being terminated there. The staff at Tonbridge were dealing well with the disruption and there were plenty of them there. I arrived at my destination 36 minutes late, the latest my journey with Southeastern has been since the beginning April.

Two sides of the coin

 

[Philip C]

To give a flavour of life with Southeastern:

I was heading towards Tunbridge Wells from London after the train failed. We were 24 minutes late into Tonbridge but the guard informed us regularly during the delay and apologized that the trains was being terminated there. The staff at Tonbridge were dealing well with the disruption and there were plenty of them there. I arrived at my destination 36 minutes late, the latest my journey with Southeastern has been since the beginning April.

Two sides of the coin

I don't think I would disagree with you. Good, often excellent, staff working well during adversity. Disappointing decisions being made elsewhere in the organisation.

 

[jnjkerbin]

I don't think I would disagree with you. Good, often excellent, staff working well during adversity. Disappointing decisions being made elsewhere in the organisation.

Sorry, I think I over interpreted your original post - my sentiments exactly

 

[ScotGG]

The reason for this is historical. During the first franchises fares rose at RPI-1% adjusted for performance. SE performance was poor so their prices fell quite a lot during this period. Generally prices per km were much cheaper than other services in LSE. The RPI+3% is really an attempt to get them back into sync.

Oh and there are plenty of very well off places in Kent...

Yep but they are now well above parity. Off the top of my head a report out recently found the average fare to be 10% above other London area TOCs on similar distances. Anyone remember reading that and got the link? I will try and find it as bloody google keeps bringing up todays fares announcement on searches. I need to find it, but I don't think it included HS1 and was a decent independent, thorough like-for-like comparison.

And of course there are some well-off places in Kent and SE London, but looking at wider averages in income etc across the entire county and compare with others shows it to less wealthy. Same with London boroughs.