Bolton to get 5th Platform

[Joseph_Locke]

To the best of my memory, and Quail backs that up, p4 is bi-directional.

All Bolton platforms are (effectively) bi-di (p1 from and to Blackburn only)

P5 is being provided to allow (already slow) down (Southport-bound) stopping services to be overtaken by newly-quickened non-stop electrics without having to resort to crossing to P3 and back.

You could do this in the Down Moses Gate Loop, but regular use of this would trigger major repair work anyway.

The new p5 will probably be a Down line only.

 

[Howardh]

They dont have to go to manchester to double back, they can go to Preston and enjoy a very high frequency.
.

So get off at Preston, cross platforms for another train, in all probability a clapped-out NR one (grrreeeaaatt advert for the North West, huh?), get on and off at Bolton for the bus to take you onwards to your final destination, which could be 6 miles + from Bolton TS.

Or

Stay on your nice, comfortable inter-city right up to Trinity Street where you have to cross a bridge to your bus...

Think I know as a passenger which would be the better option.

But, still, when have passengers ever mattered? Mustn't get in the way of the Wigan/Warrington love-in

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All Bolton platforms are (effectively) bi-di (p1 from and to Blackburn only)
P5 is being provided to allow (already slow) down (Southport-bound) stopping services to be overtaken by newly-quickened non-stop electrics without having to resort to crossing to P3 and back.
The new p5 will probably be a Down line only.

So it is being provided as part of the general line upgrade for electrification, then?
In which case the CP5 funds should already be there...

I had this vision where stoppers on the line would all be electric (or why bother?).
So wouldn't Blackburn trains be first stop Bolton?
And Southports run via Atherton (electrics via Bolton to Wigan NW)?
Sorry, don't mean to be picky...
I wince every time I see a Pacer on a Crewe-Manchester service!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wince every time I see a Pacer on a Crewe-Manchester service!

They are not altogether unknown passing through my revered station of Prestbury on the Macclesfield line when our usual Class 323 units are not all in fine fettle...:roll:

 

[ianhr]

All Bolton platforms are (effectively) bi-di (p1 from and to Blackburn only)

P5 is being provided to allow (already slow) down (Southport-bound) stopping services to be overtaken by newly-quickened non-stop electrics without having to resort to crossing to P3 and back.

You could do this in the Down Moses Gate Loop, but regular use of this would trigger major repair work anyway.

The new p5 will probably be a Down line only.

Thanks for clarifying that. So as I understand it now the junction for the Blackburn trains is actually south of Bolton station. Has this always been the case?

It would be interesting to see some comparative track diagrams: historic, existing, and proposed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They are not altogether unknown passing through my revered station of Prestbury on the Macclesfield line when our usual Class 323 units are not all in fine fettle...:roll:

That must really cause some problems! I understood that the reason for diagramming Class 323 units on the Stoke line, rather than any other EMU class, was so that they could get out of the way or keep up with Pendolinos and Voyagers. (Several people have pointed out that it is not intended for the 319s to become common user with the 323s).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Several people have pointed out that it is not intended for the 319s to become common user with the 323s.

One can only but hope that this remains a fact.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All Bolton platforms are (effectively) bi-di (p1 from and to Blackburn only)

I am sure that platform 2 is obviously an exception to this rule. being a terminal bay platform.

 

[snowball]

It would be interesting to see some comparative track diagrams: historic, existing, and proposed.

At the north end of the platforms there used to be several diamond crossings as the routes divided to Preston and Blackburn. This picture was recently posted on Skyscrapercity by Tony H1 (who I think is the same person known on here as Geeves):

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=116863298&postcount=98

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At the north end of the platforms there used to be several diamond crossings as the routes divided to Preston and Blackburn. This picture was recently posted on Skyscrapercity by Tony H1 (who I think is the same person known on here as Geeves):

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=116863298&postcount=98

This visual image evoked a dormant memory for me, with the ubiquitous Class 08 shunter in full view.

I suppose that there are not all that many of us around now who remember passenger trains approaching Bolton station from the Lostock direction, then taking the curve onto the Blackburn line over the long-lifted tracks there.

 

[Peter Lanky]

This visual image evoked a dormant memory for me, with the ubiquitous Class 08 shunter in full view.

I suppose that there are not all that many of us around now who remember passenger trains approaching Bolton station from the Lostock direction, then taking the curve onto the Blackburn line over the long-lifted tracks there.

I remember the track very well, but have no recollection of ever seeing a train on it. What type of service would have done this manoeuvre?

 

[muddythefish]

At the north end of the platforms there used to be several diamond crossings as the routes divided to Preston and Blackburn. This picture was recently posted on Skyscrapercity by Tony H1 (who I think is the same person known on here as Geeves):

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=116863298&postcount=98

Great photo and a poignant reminder of how the railways used to be before all the infrastructure was ripped out. Some classic freight stock being shunted by the 08 !!

 

[Darren R]

I remember the track very well, but have no recollection of ever seeing a train on it. What type of service would have done this manoeuvre?

The Johnson Street Fork (as the avoiding line was known) was never used by scheduled passenger services. It was mainly used by the pick-up goods between Bulwell sidings (towards Lostock Junction) and the various goods yards and sidings to the north, along with the Astley Bridge branch. It was also used by excursions and football specials from time-to-time - but we are straying dangerously close to this becoming a nostalgia thread!

Regarding the current platform 4: there is a signal at the Manchester end which makes it look as though the platform is bi-directional. However, I'm fairly certain this is not the case. There is nowhere to cross back over to the correct line until the erstwhile Burnden Junction and there are no further 'up' signals beyond the end of platform 4 to allow this. I've only ever once seen this signal being used - it was several years ago and accordingly I may be remembering it wrong, but I don't think it cleared at all (although there may be a 'shunt'-type signal also - I don't take any notice when I pass it on the train!) The train had run into platform 4 from the Preston direction because of problems of some sort. It ran forward wrong-line, before stopping at the 'down' signal just to the south end of the station, reversing into platform 2 and then reversing out again towards Manchester.

I think the signal at the Manchester end of platform 4 is only there to allow trains from the Lostock direction to terminate in that platform and head off back out again in the direction from whence they have just come.

 

[chorleyjeff]

This visual image evoked a dormant memory for me, with the ubiquitous Class 08 shunter in full view.

I suppose that there are not all that many of us around now who remember passenger trains approaching Bolton station from the Lostock direction, then taking the curve onto the Blackburn line over the long-lifted tracks there.

Passenger trains? Why? Wigan to Blackburn went the direct route through Chorley.
i know a Horwich running in route used the curve.
I assumed the other users were goods/mineral trains. But enlightenment would be welcome.

 

[spongsdad]

This visual image evoked a dormant memory for me, with the ubiquitous Class 08 shunter in full view.

I suppose that there are not all that many of us around now who remember passenger trains approaching Bolton station from the Lostock direction, then taking the curve onto the Blackburn line over the long-lifted tracks there.

There are one or two of us left, Paul
Come to think of it, it wasn't an 08 class either, rather an Aspinall 0-6-0ST

 

[Philip]

Manchester - Scotland services have used the Bolton and Chorley lines for many years, long before TPE was thought of. I blame the diversion towards Wigan primarily on incorporating the Scotland service with the Barrow and Windermere service which meant Scotland trains became much busier with local passengers. This was in 2007 when Virgin ran a 2-hourly service (though in essence it was still a 2-hourly service albeit with extras in the peak hours up until May). Ideally, upon electrification and higher line speeds, Bolton should go back to having two inter-urban semi-express trains per hour as it did in 2007, re-route the Scottish services via Bolton but running every hour and non-stop from Manchester to Bolton then non-stop to Preston. Wigan retains two Scotland trains per hour plus a third if Liverpool goes on the map, more than enough.

The two semi-fast inter-urban services should be the electric Blackpool which could also work as a portion train, the other half going to Windermere (if this branch is electrified) and a faster diesel service to Barrow using 185s.

All this talk of the Mid-Cheshire line and the Sheffield and North TPE lines needing more trains, well so do Bolton and Chorley and I think these two have a bigger case than some seeing as they have had a service taken away in the last year.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Passenger trains? Why? Wigan to Blackburn went the direct route through Chorley. I know a Horwich running in route used the curve. I assumed the other users were goods/mineral trains. But enlightenment would be welcome.

I think, as has since been stated, football excursion trains used the Johnson Street fork.

 

[Starmill]

It's my firm belief that if Manchester - Scotland trains ever do return to the Bolton route, they must not stop there unless they are all marked as Pick Up Only on the northbound and Set Down Only on the southbound. But even that might not be enforced, and the southbound might be almost impossible to enforce, so it's best if they just don't stop.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's my firm belief that if Manchester - Scotland trains ever do return to the Bolton route, they must not stop there unless they are all marked as Pick Up Only on the northbound and Set Down Only on the southbound. But even that might not be enforced, and the southbound might be almost impossible to enforce, so it's best if they just don't stop.

Does a similar "pick-up/set-down" situation still exist at Stockport railway station on certain long-distance services ?

 

[Starmill]

Does a similar "pick-up/set-down" situation still exist at Stockport railway station on certain long-distance services ?

Nope, it doesn't with a few minor exceptions, eg the 0700 M-F Only MAN - EUS.

 

[Howardh]

It's my firm belief that if Manchester - Scotland trains ever do return to the Bolton route, they must not stop there unless they are all marked as Pick Up Only on the northbound and Set Down Only on the southbound. But even that might not be enforced, and the southbound might be almost impossible to enforce, so it's best if they just don't stop.

Hope that's tongue-in-cheek

The old inter-city trains (run by Virgin) that stopped at Bolton were happy to pick up and drop off at Manchester, and TPE Scotland-bound trains so I can't see why a return should be any different? Maybe avoid/restrict timetabling long-distance in the middle of peak hours so trains could leave northwards from Manchester in the AM peak (not many commuters Man > Bolton at 0800) the other way in the evening?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Off on a tangent (or sky bridge);

Why do trains at Bolton stop such a distance from the fairly new footbridge, inconveniencing passengers.

Will the route from train platform to bus stance be a convenient one or a series of double backs? That is, will it be necessary to walk from platforms 1-3 along the whole length of the footbridge, through the ticket barrier and then back again along a parallel sky bridge?

 

[Howardh]

Off on a tangent (or sky bridge);

Why do trains at Bolton stop such a distance from the fairly new footbridge, inconveniencing passengers.

Will the route from train platform to bus stance be a convenient one or a series of double backs? That is, will it be necessary to walk from platforms 1-3 along the whole length of the footbridge, through the ticket barrier and then back again along a parallel sky bridge?

(b) Yes, afaia that's the plan. You can see the gate in the ticket hall where the bridge will be
(a) Thought the re-development of TS was supposed to enable trains to stop nearer the steps? Not happening as noted - rather conveniently the driver stops adjacent to.....now guess

 

[thealexweb]

It's my firm belief that if Manchester - Scotland trains ever do return to the Bolton route, they must not stop there unless they are all marked as Pick Up Only on the northbound and Set Down Only on the southbound. But even that might not be enforced, and the southbound might be almost impossible to enforce, so it's best if they just don't stop.

Going on non-stop journey times it is logical the Manchester to Scotland trains should go via Bolton, as post-December 2016 the Bolton route will be up to 15-20 mins faster than the current slow route.

There were few people complaining about how the service was being run prior to December 2013 and it is my belief that things should return to how they were. Trying to restrict PTE passengers from boarding Inter-City services is unenforceable and since it is not levied against comparable GM stations e.g. Stockport, it is not welcome in Bolton either. A comprise to please both sides may have to be removing the Chorley station stop due to its short platform lengths.

Wigan Council claims it is fighting to maintain fast services to Manchester. Post-December 2017, once Northern Rail has access to large numbers of Class 319s and the Lostock Junction to Wigan North Western electrification is completed, the 319s will be able to provide the faster services to Manchester with the extra capacity needed for PTE passengers.

 

[Peter Lanky]

Post-December 2017, once Northern Rail has access to large numbers of Class 319s and the Lostock Junction to Wigan North Western electrification is completed, the 319s will be able to provide the faster services to Manchester with the extra capacity needed for PTE passengers.

Is this a definite? Everything I've read so far suggests that Lostock to Wigan is in the 'thinking about it' stage.

If this electrification happens, there appears to be 3 routes from Manchester to Scotland:
The current route via the edge of Warrington.
Via Bolton and Wigan NW
Via Bolton and Chorley.

The idea solution would be a combination of all 3 routes to give the best combination of capacity, short journey times, and allowing the maximum number of people to have access to a service to Scotland without having to change trains, or faster journey to Manchester.

This is probably at odds with official thinking, where the preference appears to be able to boast a headline grabbing fast time, even though this may well be advantageous to fewer than 50% of people who would use the route. (HS2-style thinking)

 

[swt_passenger]

Is this a definite? Everything I've read so far suggests that Lostock to Wigan is in the 'thinking about it' stage.

DfT have funded it, along with the Windermere branch.

...The DfT also announced today (13 December 2013) the following measures to improve rail services:

The railway line between Wigan (North Western Station) and Bolton (Lostock Junction) will be electrified, at an estimated cost of £37 million and targeted for completion by 2017. This will enable the conversion of the busy Wigan to Manchester Victoria services and Wigan to Manchester Airport services from older Pacer diesel trains to more modern and higher capacity electric trains.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/road-and-rail-projects-to-boost-local-and-regional-transport--2

As far as I can see NR are thinking about the details, rather than the basic idea:

Oxenholme to Windemere and Wigan to Lostock
The Department for Transport announced additional funding to electrify these routes in autumn 2013.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/North_West_electrification.aspx

 

[billio]

This visual image evoked a dormant memory for me, with the ubiquitous Class 08 shunter in full view.

I suppose that there are not all that many of us around now who remember passenger trains approaching Bolton station from the Lostock direction, then taking the curve onto the Blackburn line over the long-lifted tracks there.

I do remember seeing trains with coaches passing on this line very occasionally about 50+ years ago. Whether they were a service or something else I do not know.

Not having been in Bolton for a very long time, I am confused as I thought Bolton's 5th platform was a south facing bay used by Rochdale stopping services. I remember catching trains from there about 4-30, shortly after the Glasgow - Manchester service had called at the adjacent platform, quite often hauled by a Britannia or a Scot.

Incidentally, the photograph doesn't show the through line to Manchester which must have lifted sometime before the photograph was taken. I remember that saddle tank trundling through with wagons full of steel off-cuts bound for Bradley Fold.

 

[Peter Lanky]

I do remember seeing trains with coaches passing on this line very occasionally about 50+ years ago. Whether they were a service or something else I do not know.

Not having been in Bolton for a very long time, I am confused as I thought Bolton's 5th platform was a south facing bay used by Rochdale stopping services. I remember catching trains from there about 4-30, shortly after the Glasgow - Manchester service had called at the adjacent platform, quite often hauled by a Britannia or a Scot.

Incidentally, the photograph doesn't show the through line to Manchester which must have lifted sometime before the photograph was taken. I remember that saddle tank trundling through with wagons full of steel off-cuts bound for Bradley Fold.

The south facing bay is now platform 2, but I think it has also been known as 1a at some stage, and is occasionally used for trains from Man Vic terminating at Bolton.

The 5th platform is on the extreme right looking south, closest to the church.

 

[billio]

The south facing bay is now platform 2, but I think it has also been known as 1a at some stage, and is occasionally used for trains from Man Vic terminating at Bolton.

The 5th platform is on the extreme right looking south, closest to the church.

Thanks, now I understand.

 

[Bevan Price]

Is this a definite? Everything I've read so far suggests that Lostock to Wigan is in the 'thinking about it' stage.

If this electrification happens, there appears to be 3 routes from Manchester to Scotland:
The current route via the edge of Warrington.
Via Bolton and Wigan NW
Via Bolton and Chorley.

The idea solution would be a combination of all 3 routes to give the best combination of capacity, short journey times, and allowing the maximum number of people to have access to a service to Scotland without having to change trains, or faster journey to Manchester.

This is probably at odds with official thinking, where the preference appears to be able to boast a headline grabbing fast time, even though this may well be advantageous to fewer than 50% of people who would use the route. (HS2-style thinking)

Via Bolton + Wigan NW to Preston is likely to be confined to diversions arising from engineering work, because it can only use Platform 1 at Wigan NW, and that has a 10 mph restriction. In consequence Bolton to Preston via Wigan is at least 10 minutes slower than going via Chorley.

Because of the higher speed limits on the Wigan/WCML than on the Bolton/Chorley route, there is little difference in their Manchester / Preston journey times - despite those via Wigan having to crawl around the Parkside Jcn - Golborne Jcn curves. And Wigan might need these services if DfT ever proceeds with a one-time suggestion that Euston - Glasgow services run non-stop between Euston & Preston.

 

[Starmill]

Put it this way, if every train had 8x23m coaches, it wouldn't matter if the Scotland trains stopped at Bolton or not. There is plenty of capacity between Manchester and Stockport.

However what you will get on these services will be 4x20m coaches a lot of the time. This is not at all sufficent to carry anything more than a small flow of Bolton passengers in addition to the very large flows between Manchester and Cumbria + Scotland that have been developing of late. It is not a nice experience starting your 3-hour journey stood up crushed against the wall with all of your luggage etc because there are a large number of people using the train because it is the fastest way between Manchester and Bolton.

Of course, it mightn't be such a problem if sufficient capacity were available on other services, but isn't Manchester - Bolton still running at slightly less capacity than it was before the change? I'm very surprised at the assertion that 'few' people were unhappy with the previous setup as the Bolton Commuters vs Socts argument got going on here more than a few times!

As for stopping anywhere between Bolton and Preston you can forget it. Is this an inter-city service or not!?

 

[Peter Lanky]

Via Bolton + Wigan NW to Preston is likely to be confined to diversions arising from engineering work, because it can only use Platform 1 at Wigan NW, and that has a 10 mph restriction. In consequence Bolton to Preston via Wigan is at least 10 minutes slower than going via Chorley.

Because of the higher speed limits on the Wigan/WCML than on the Bolton/Chorley route, there is little difference in their Manchester / Preston journey times - despite those via Wigan having to crawl around the Parkside Jcn - Golborne Jcn curves. And Wigan might need these services if DfT ever proceeds with a one-time suggestion that Euston - Glasgow services run non-stop between Euston & Preston.

Surely the 10mph restriction would only be a problem if the train was not stopping? If it wasn't stopping, there would be no point in using that route at all under normal conditions. I see the diverted TPE trains crawling through there every day. Going so slowly, it seems pointless that they don't stop; it must 'waste' at least 2 mins on the journey time, but could be useful for some people to the north east of Wigan who would normally have used Chorley.

Your last point confirms my thoughts that the 'powers that be' seem more concerned with a few heading grabbing journey times than actually providing a service to the population.