Getting an earlier connecting train with an advance ticket

[Class45]

A friend of mine has an advance ticket to travel from Luton to Penzance. The itinerary has him catching the 08.48 service from Luton to St Pancras in order to connect with the 10.06 to Penzance which is the only train he has a reservation coupon for. Would he be allowed to catch an earlier train from Luton in order to have more time to travel between stations in London?

 

[Chapeltom]

On the non-reserved portion, anything within reason, yes. On returning north from Luton via St Pancras, I took a train which left me time to use the facilities at London Euston. I think it was about 45 minutes earlier than the suggested service, anything more than that is pushing it.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

On the non-reserved portion, anything within reason, yes. On returning north from Luton via St Pancras, I took a train which left me time to use the facilities at London Euston. I think it was about 45 minutes earlier than the suggested service, anything more than that is pushing it.

I do it quite a lot when connecting to London trains at Leeds, I always travel on the earlier ex-Skipton train to give 45 rather than 15 minutes to change. Never had any problems at all.

 

[Hadders]

You'll need to get an FCC train rather than an EMT one as you need to take an unreservable train.

 

[Class45]

Thanks for the replies, that's what I thought would be the case.

 

[yorkie]

The public rules say you should take "appropriate" connecting services.

There is no definition of "appropriate" but, for sure, allowing an extra half an hour is obviously appropriate.

You'll need to get an FCC train rather than an EMT one as you need to take an unreservable train.

This is not part of the contractual terms, but I agree that the guidance to staff (also available in our Fares Guide: 1.1.3 Advance tickets) is that only unreservable trains can be caught. Stevenage to London on EC is given as an example of an exception. The position Luton to St Pancras is unclear. Common sense would indicate that this should be an exception. It would not be clear to a passenger wishing to take the first available train to London that there would be any reason why such a train would not be an "appropriate connecting service".

 

[Be3G]

The public rules say you should take "appropriate" connecting services.

There is no definition of "appropriate" but, for sure, allowing an extra half an hour is obviously appropriate.

Whilst this has no grounding other than gut instinct, I'd say that anything that arrives at an interchange station within two hours of the next departure on the itinerary would be acceptable, as that's the maximum one can force the NRE site to provide an itinerary for.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I believe the dubious wording of the '& Connections' routeings is "an appropriate connecting train as shown on the tickets or other valid travel itinerary".

The original intention, when introduced by Virgin Trains, was quite clear, but now with everything having been 'Simplified', so that everyone knows where they stand, and everyone out to save any money they can, it's a little murky, no-one really knows what a 'valid travel itinerary' is.

 

[gord]

I thought of an interesting one when I came back from Lowestoft last weekend (Lowestoft to Wolverhampton advance...Virgin Trains and Connections). I had a booked train to catch at Ipswich. I could take a reasonable train from Lowestoft to Ipswich on the East Suffolk line to connect and this train was not reservable. However, it is also valid to go via Norwich to get from Lowestoft to Ipswich. Would I have been allowed to have gone via Norwich to meet my connection at Ipswich? I'm thinking not as the Norwich to Ipswich leg is a reservable train.

I guess what I'm asking is that if there are two valid routes to connect to your booked train on an advance ticket, but one route is reservable or has a portion that is reservable, does that mean you must take the other route?

I took the East Suffolk line of course because it was simpler for my timings...but it did get me thinking.

 

[island]

Official guidance is that you must take all the trains for which you have reservations, and not any other reservable trains, with the exception of services between Stevenage and London and v/v.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It is sometimes stated on this forum that an "& connections" element of an an Advance ticket which does not come with a specific reservation can only be travelled on an 'unreservable' service. I'm not aware of any foundation to this belief, and in practice, I have disregarded it when travelling.

I guess what I'm asking is that if there are two valid routes to connect to your booked train on an advance ticket, but one route is reservable or has a portion that is reservable, does that mean you must take the other route?
.

No. In my opinion, if the route and time is appropriate, the journey should be valid.

Notice should be taken of any itinery that is provided at the time of booking, as that route and time should be taken as evidence of an acceptable train in terms of 'appropriate'. Anyone considering pushing the boundaries of 'appropriate' can always ask before boarding, and, in my opinion are unlikely to be refused. That includes travelling on 'reservable' services.

 

[Sleepy]

I pass people on Advance tickets such as Cardiff or Manchester to Chelmsford on Norwich bound services all the time, cannot see any point in trying to explain they should only use the other 4 services an hour ? Time is better spent dealing with people travelling 2 hours early/late or without any ticket when you only have about 20 mins to look at around 350 tickets (Stratford- Chelmsford).

 

[Starmill]

I'm going to have an interesting situation like this soon. I have a Leeds - Edinbrugh AP with a change at York that is far too tight for my liking only 9 minutes. Given the high frequency of Leeds - York trains, I'd rather get the preceding one and be a bit more sure of making the connecting Northbound train. But I have a reservation for the TPE, which is problematic. So it's almost the opposite case, it clearly is a connection but it is still reservable. Tickets routed EC & CONNECTNS.

 

[Butts]

I normally travel from Falkirk and often have an East Coast and Connections or Virgin Trains and Connections ticket.

As both involve a change of Trains in Edinburgh and Stations in Glasgow I have often travelled a lot earlier than the suggested service and never had a problem.

Indeed it offers the opportunity to break your journey and max out time in the Lounges if travelling 1st Class.

 

[SephenWorceste]

I had a Elstree to Birmingham advance. Following advice from this forum I took a train an hour earlier than strictly necessary. I used that extra time for a meal at St Pancras. I did not deviate from my route or go sightseeing in London. I think it was reasonable and appropriate. I had my excuse ready. I needed the extra time for the underground at rush hour with heavy luggage. I think catching an earlier train to minimise the risk of missing a booked train is an unfortunate necessity with the punctuality of some services. In reality my ticket was not checked from Elstree to Birmingham. In the end I did not take my booked train from Euston either. It was very late so I took an on time later train. Following the usual advice from this forum I asked the train manager not the man on the platform. Best wishes, Stephen.


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[The Ham]

Following the usual advice from this forum I asked the train manager not the man on the platform. Best wishes, Stephen.

Quite, I have been given advise by station staff which goes against what is shown on the TOC's own online rail planner.

 

[yorkie]

...Indeed it offers the opportunity to break your journey and max out time in the Lounges if travelling 1st Class.

You are not allowed a Break of journey on an Advance ticket, however a visit to a lounge is not within the definition of a break of journey - so you're OK!

I'm going to have an interesting situation like this soon. I have a Leeds - Edinbrugh AP with a change at York that is far too tight for my liking only 9 minutes. Given the high frequency of Leeds - York trains, I'd rather get the preceding one and be a bit more sure of making the connecting Northbound train. But I have a reservation for the TPE, which is problematic. So it's almost the opposite case, it clearly is a connection but it is still reservable. Tickets routed EC & CONNECTNS.

There is no contractual term that you'd fall foul of. The example given of Stevenage-London isn't the only one. I'm sure a TPE Guard has informed me that TPE allow the use of appropriate connecting services, but I can't remember where/who now. I have found a reassuring post from a Guard which I've sent you via PM.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I had a Elstree to Birmingham advance. Following advice from this forum I took a train an hour earlier than strictly necessary. I used that extra time for a meal at St Pancras
I did not deviate from my route or go sightseeing in London. I think it was reasonable and appropriate. I had my excuse ready. I needed the extra time for the underground at rush hour with heavy luggage. I think catching an earlier train to minimise the risk of missing a booked train is an unfortunate necessity with the punctuality of some services. In reality my ticket was not checked from Elstree to Birmingham.

.
This is reasonable and, I believe, fully permitted.

Without wishing to stray off-topic, I do wonder if the walk to the Met at St Pancras (at least 300m), followed by the walk from Euston Square (at least 500m) is actually sufficiently shorter than the direct walk via Brill Place/Phonenix Road (approx 1000m) to be worthwhile? (obviously the deep level tubes wouldn't be recommended for this journey with heavy luggage).

A bus/taxi would be easier, though not included in the ticket.

In the end I did not take my booked train from Euston either. It was very late so I took an on time later train. Following the usual advice from this forum I asked the train manager not the man on the platform. Best wishes, Stephen.

Again, it's sensible. If they'd enforced an unnecessary delay, they'd have upset a customer and potentially had to pay out compensation!

 

[Oscar]

I'm going to have an interesting situation like this soon. I have a Leeds - Edinbrugh AP with a change at York that is far too tight for my liking only 9 minutes. Given the high frequency of Leeds - York trains, I'd rather get the preceding one and be a bit more sure of making the connecting Northbound train. But I have a reservation for the TPE, which is problematic. So it's almost the opposite case, it clearly is a connection but it is still reservable. Tickets routed EC & CONNECTNS.

An interesting scenario would be that a passenger made this journey in the opposite direction, the East Coast service was delayed, the passenger missed the TPE connection and the next service was CrossCountry. The ticket says route EC & Connections so in theory the passenger should be the right to use the next available connection run by any TOC in this scenario. I'm not sure what the CrossCountry guard would say though.

 

[SephenWorceste]

> do wonder if the walk to the Met at St Pancras (at least 300m), followed by the walk from Euston Square (at least 500m) is actually sufficiently shorter than the direct walk via Brill Place/Phonenix Road (approx 1000m)

I have always wondered about that. I usually walk. Easier than escalators, stairs, gates, crowds and tube train.


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