An open letter to Southeastern (Managing Director)

[hassaanhc]

Found someone on Twitter getting people to retweet this letter if they agree with it . I'm not a regular user of Southeastern at all, so I don't know if they're really that bad or (probably more likely ) they are making a big deal out of nothing. I've never had problems when I occasionally use their services.

http://theroyalfactor.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/a-foundation-is-at-bottom-of-building.html?

A foundation is at the bottom of a building, not the bottom of a customer-satisfaction survey

If you are in agreement with this letter, please RT it so that it can be signed by your twitter name, used to help improve your railway service and reduce your fares

An open letter to David Statham, managing director designate, Southeastern Railways

September 2014
Dear Mr Statham,

Congratulations on your appointment. We had asked that passengers, because we are a captive market, could have a say in the recruitment for your role. However, despite our huge stake in your company, we were ignored. Nevertheless we hope that you put our needs as your most important stakeholder before revenue, cost-reduction and hanging onto the franchise with all the profit and consequently personal bonuses it can bring.

We were troubled to see in the press release announcing your appointment that Mr Brown, Go-Ahead Group CEO, described Southeastern merely as part of a 'portfolio'. It is of course much more than that. We, your passengers and salary payers, have little alternative but to pay extraordinarily and unrealistically high fares to use your service, no matter how unreliable it is; many are forced to use you to get to work, interviews, weddings, funerals, football matches and a host of other life events that we are regularly late for or give up on.

Where there is disruption, on each and every occasion it is as though Southeastern has never encountered it before. There is a complete lack of contingency planning, as well as inadequate and contradictory communication. When something goes wrong, it should not have an effect on the entire network; customers should be kept up to date with timely and consistent information.

We were also troubled to see that your PR people saw fit to write you a quote in the press release, in which you cannot surely have noticed the phrase when signing it off: “...am looking forward to building on the firm foundations laid by the current management team.” Southeastern Railways came bottom of all rail operators in the recent Which? survey and has been either bottom or thereabouts in every other survey carried out over the last few years. You can also see from twitter how you let people down in return for sums of money you simply do not deserve. A foundation is at the bottom of a building, not the bottom of a customer-satisfaction survey.

Quotes like this that appear to be copied from other companies', which are working in competitive markets, press information lead passengers to believe that you will continue in the MBA-project driven style of management of your predecessor where providing an actual service is incidental to the business of reducing cost at any cost, aggressively driving profit and totally ignoring what is really happening on the rails. Of course you have shareholders to please but I would ask that you revise any targets you have made them aware of in order that you start to look after the audience that should actually be at the forefront of your thinking, and provides much of your revenue. Profit is not a dirty word but when it is your only objective, passengers suffer.

Let us make it absolutely clear. Southeastern's trains are late, short, expensive and often cancelled; this is no foundation upon which you can build a service. The company could not even be bothered to fix the heating that was left on full on so many trains during the summer, even on the most stifling days. You need to start again. And passengers do not believe the reliability statistics quoted. Please do not use them unless you are ruthlessly transparent with them.

What we would like to hear is an acknowledgement that your service is not the shining example that you claim. And then a plan with targets on how you will fix punctuality, short trains, cancellations and provision of information, particularly during disruption. And we want to see a reduction in fares, not an increase. If government subsidies are lowered, take the shortfall from your profits, not us; you have too much of our money already.

Southeastern has been asked through twitter several times how its senior people are bonused on customer service, we have not had a response. Can you now provide this information, showing the targets relative to those on revenue and cost-management? And how customer service is measured?

Mr Statham, we would be pleased to see your reply so that we can work with you to provide the service passengers have always wanted.

Regards

Your passengers.

@theroyalfactor
@se_raleway

PS, If any relevant politicians are reading this, many of you have been utterly negligent in this very important aspect of constituents' lives. Some have even responded in a manner that seems as though they want employment at Southeastern.If you take up the cudgel it will be a vote winner. But if you take it up and drop it immediately then please don't bother at all, we’ll tackle it ourselves through social media and other action.

Discuss

 

[Via Bank]

Even considering you can never please everyone, and you'll always get this sort of letter, the public's general opinion towards SE's metro services in general indicates a chronic public image and customer relations problem. And frankly, if you try travelling on a stopper from Victoria, it's not hard to see why.

A confusing rat's nest of routes, appalling internal conditions on the 465s, and poorly signposted stations in south London with Oyster readers regularly out of use or broken in some way. Even little details are annoying. The way the CIS changes to "arrived" as soon as the train enters the signal block—there is no excuse for this, it comes across to customers as lying when there's another minute or two before the train is actually standing at the platform.

Admittedly there are a lot of factors working against them, not all of their own doing, but SN and SWT arguably have similar problems and have at least made efforts to maintain customer relations by holding passenger forums and so forth, improve the customer experience, and made their plans for improvements clear. Meanwhile, SE, on being voted bottom in that Which? poll, made that wretched statement saying it was because they were a commuter TOC, taking people to work, etc.

I am certainly not someone who believes in the "customer is always right" billhooks, and of course a Which? survey is going to have self-selection bias, but for goodness' sake: the bottom line is that you have some unhappy customers. The least you can do is apologise to those customers, and promise to try to do better in future.

Frankly, given that sort of attitude, it is no wonder many of SE's customers believe the company has contempt for them—and neither is it surprising that they hold contempt for the Company.

 

[LLivery]

As someone who lives in South London I travel on SN, SWT, SE, FCC and LO often and I must say that Southeastern are frankly terrible. The 465s always have sticky floors and in summer are boiling inside. I have to deal with Southerns lateness all the time, Southeastern not so much, I seem to just be lucky there. It's not hard to work out Southeasterns problems just after one journey. They haven't even bothered to install Air Con on the 376s and have the 375s ever been refurbished since construction?

Most stations are ungated with some only having gates in the ticket office, while all the other entrances don't. Catford Bridge has 5 entrances, only one have gates and 3 entrances are open all day - theres no point having gates at all.

I don't have an issue with frequency in the London suburbs - its the best thing about the network however, its fares are insane and I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a member of its staff smile. The franchise should have never of been extended, frankly its always been bad: Connex South Eastern, South Eastern Trains and now Southeastern. It should have been part of TSGN, the new franchise model could work well and competition only exists between London Bridge and Tonbridge. Then again all the money still ultimately goes to Govia anyway.

 

[SPADTrap]

Then again all the money still ultimately goes to Govia anyway.

I thought the revenue/fare "pot" went to the DfT?

This won't reduce fares though sadly.

 

[HH]

The franchise should have never of been extended, frankly its always been bad: Connex South Eastern, South Eastern Trains and now Southeastern. It should have been part of TSGN, the new franchise model could work well and competition only exists between London Bridge and Tonbridge. Then again all the money still ultimately goes to Govia anyway.

I agree that it's always been bad. You can add BR to that list of TOCs as I can attest. I would therefore suggest that the correct question is "why?".

I examined the network in some depth a few years ago, and my conclusions at that time was that there was a lack of direction from on high, because while there were a few bright spots there was no consistency. The fact is that managers turn over very slowly, and many categories of staff too, so that making a change is not an easy task - most of the same people are there from franchise to franchise, and they don't easily change their attitude.

SE also suffers from some inbuilt issues:

1. Services pass through London Bridge - the most congested station in the country (they actually TT more trains in the peak than the theoretical maximum). Hopefully the changes to this station as part of Thameslink will improve things there.
2. It has the slowest services in the SE due to the infrastructure.
3. Due to the slow speeds and the rather higgledy-piggledy nature of the routes, it takes a lot of time to cover the area.

I happen to know Dave Statham quite well and I think that he's one of the 'good guys', and he has a strong focus on customer service. However I think even Jesus H Christ on a Harley Davidson would struggle to turn SE around quickly.

 

[TheJRB]

The way the CIS changes to "arrived" as soon as the train enters the signal block—there is no excuse for this, it comes across to customers as lying when there's another minute or two before the train is actually standing at the platform.

Considering how Realtime Trains has the ability to "guess" when the train has gone from arriving to standing at the platform, I agree, it seems silly that this sort of technology can't be implemented on the station signs. I'm not a big fan of the screens used at most Southeastern and Southern stations though. They're alright but nowhere near as good as the ones at Ashford (similar design but easier to read) or the larger displays used at Ebbsfleet, Stratford and St Pancras.

Admittedly there are a lot of factors working against them, not all of their own doing, but SN and SWT arguably have similar problems and have at least made efforts to maintain customer relations by holding passenger forums and so forth, improve the customer experience, and made their plans for improvements clear. Meanwhile, SE, on being voted bottom in that Which? poll, made that wretched statement saying it was because they were a commuter TOC, taking people to work, etc.

I am certainly not someone who believes in the "customer is always right" billhooks, and of course a Which? survey is going to have self-selection bias, but for goodness' sake: the bottom line is that you have some unhappy customers. The least you can do is apologise to those customers, and promise to try to do better in future.

Frankly, given that sort of attitude, it is no wonder many of SE's customers believe the company has contempt for them—and neither is it surprising that they hold contempt for the Company.

I agree. We all know that commuters aren't easy to please but to actually say as much to their faces! I'm always taken aback by how satisfied c2c passengers are considering that it's almost solely a commuter operation but then it's reliably at the top of the punctuality table (with London Overground) and perhaps enough people remember the BR days still. Obviously the Southeastern network is much more complex and the bottleneck that is London Bridge probably takes more than its fair share of causing delays but I'm sure there's something to be learned there. I'd say that HS1 passengers are probably much more satisfied with their experience than passengers from the rest of the network, but then they also feel more aggrieved because of their higher fares.

As someone who lives in South London I travel on SN, SWT, SE, FCC and LO often and I must say that Southeastern are frankly terrible. The 465s always have sticky floors and in summer are boiling inside. I have to deal with Southerns lateness all the time, Southeastern not so much, I seem to just be lucky there. It's not hard to work out Southeasterns problems just after one journey. They haven't even bothered to install Air Con on the 376s and have the 375s ever been refurbished since construction?

I'd imagine that installing air conditioning to the 376s would require full consent from Eversholt and might be harder to do than it seems (I'm sure somebody had an interesting piece of information about how difficult air con is to retrofit to Bombardier products).

As for the 375s, they've had a "refresh" which involved replacing the seat covers (which admittedly do look much better now than they did) and changing out the carpet in first class.

375609 (a couple of my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/joshtechfission/11279723365 and https://www.flickr.com/photos/joshtechfission/13568110495) also went to Ilford last year, but I think it was a purely mechanical refurbishment as the inside remains unchanged. I saw it yesterday and it still looks much newer than the rest of the fleet even though it's from one of the oldest batches!

 

[W230]

I agree that improving cleanliness of trains, their condition and that of stations too is something SE could reasonably undertake.

However, the problem with comparing them with the likes of c2c is that SE are not "self contained". As already stated there is such a mish mash of rail routes in south London that the only real way you could eliminate late running is to eliminate services and that's never going to be a winner...

Interesting that it's seen by all as being a neglected area whether under BR, Connex or whoever! Probably because it is though!

 

[LBSCR Times]

Even in BR days, the South Eastern Division was the third in line, coming behind the Central Division and a long way behind the South Western.

 

[ScotGG]

I use a number of TOCs regularly around London so I'm not parochial, and in my wide experience Southeastern are the worst.

Communications are non-existent too many times when problems arise. I use the internet on my phone luckily, and know good sites to use like realtimetrains, but many don't and left to SE to help are in trouble. A big lack of staffing is a problem.

There's just too many trains that are short. It's been known for decades more stock is needed. There were supposed to be 12 car trains in the early 90s for metro routes. The 2 car 466s were only introduced as that 12 car plan was cut due to the early '90s recession, so maximum lengths were cut to 10 car - 2 465 plus 1 466 = 10 cars instead of 3x 465 intended. Though you rarely see 10 cars running in the peaks even now. An inadequate 6 car is just as likely.

Now millions have been spent finally upgrading the remaining infrastructure to 12 car that wasn't finished in early 90s, but no new stock soon to do much about it. One of the last TOCs in line for more in London in the coming years.

Don't forget SE users had to pay RPI + 3% for years when the rest of the country was paying RPI +1% meaning many journeys now cost more than alternatives in other TOCs serving London.

To any thinking why not use an alternative - well unless a millionnaire then parking in zone 1 London is just not possible. Most of ones income would go in parking. Past zone 2/3 cycling is not really feasible. Buses are tortuously slow from even zone 2 to central London on a terrible road network (SE London suffers here too - probably the worst in London). Of course no tubes either. As very little employment locally in SE London and Kent central London is the only way for many, and that's the train or nothing. It seems those in charge of SE dating back a long time know this (back to BR going by posts above), and are too complacent.

Having HS1 attached to the franchise (which does nothing for much of the franchise area - certainly nothing for London metro routes) seems to mean more subsidy needed and the DfT wont invest more widely. The lack of growth in passenger numbers also perpetuate this. However as fare evasion on Southeastern is so easy, and so widespread, I firmly believe accurate numbers aren't reported on many metro lines.

 

[EM2]

I much prefer this letter:

 

[Metobusfan]

He isn't md yet! 11 more days

 

[DarloRich]

Lost me after line 1 and just comes across as a wibbling whine which will very quickly be filled in the cabinet marked bin.

Where to start:

• No private company will offer its customers a vote on the appointment of the chief executive!!
  
  
• South Eastern IS just part of the transport portfolio held by Go Ahead.
  
  
• South Eastern passengers, despite what many clearly think, are no more special than other season ticket holders. It seems they think because they live in the South East they should be afforded god like status. Should I point out that many season ticket holders on other TOCS endure similar services on less modern, less well specified rolling stock? Their services also run MUCH less often than SE services, nor are there a plethora of alternative routes available. Try a pacer to work chaps.
  
  
• SE is part of a private company. They exist to make a return for their shareholders. That they should operate for the benefit of their customers seems, for the capitalist supermen of the South East, a worryingly communistic approach to business! Free market economics rule – until we have to pay for them?
  
  
• Funny how many people now using these services were the same ones crying out for privitisation. Free market economics rule – until we have to pay for them?
  
  
• Large sections of this rant show little or no understanding of how the railway system in or country operates. TRY to complain to the right people about the right things!
  
  
• It also shows the belief among many passengers, especially fellow season ticket holders, in the existence of the Haynes Manual of Railway Operations - Would that the world worked like that.

I could go on but can’t be bothered.

The simple fact is that if you don’t like the service on offer you have a choice. In fact you have 2. Move somewhere else or get to work by a different means. You choose to use these services, live where you do and work in Central London. Sorry if that sounds harsh but welcome to the capitalist world. Until you vote with your feet/wallet nothing will change.

 

[SETCommuter]

The main issues for me have always been:

• The lack of communication
• The number of unmanned stations
• The focus on HS1 above all other services
• The reduction to 1tph at many stations as a result of the above

 

[bb21]

I lost interest after reading the "I pay your wages" argument. I normally consider that the point where the author ran out of anything meaningful to say.

 

[ScotGG]

I much prefer this letter:

He lives in Greenwich. A station that is staffed for much of the day, and has peak time trains to London Bridge in 7 minutes without any stops. Any issues and a train to Lewisham in 8 minutes and a DLR to Greenwich so little inconvenience. Probably not getting the same issues as many others...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The simple fact is that if you don’t like the service on offer you have a choice. In fact you have 2. Move somewhere else or get to work by a different means. You choose to use these services, live where you do and work in Central London. Sorry if that sounds harsh but welcome to the capitalist world. Until you vote with your feet/wallet nothing will change.

This is just nonsense for many people, particularly younger people or those with young families. Are you middle aged or a boomer by any chance? Not noticed the extortionate cost of rents in London or house prices which leaves a great many people completely unable to move? The circumstances that existed post war to the late 90s/early 2000s are gone. The choice existed then - it doesn't for many now.

Not noticed the concentration of jobs in central London away from suburbs and surrounding counties in the past 20 years plus?

There is NO other option for people served by much of SE - that is the problem. Such as those forced out to say zone 5 when up to 10 years ago they could live in zone 2-3 and use other means. Now it's zone 5/6 and train. Nothing else is remotely feasible, and there's no jobs locally that pay enough to even pay zone 5 rent or buy a house.

Seriously, look at changes in employment and housing in the past 10-20 years. Many older people seem to have no idea. They bought or had children and live in secure social housing before the circumstances changed massively relatively recently. A person on an average income of say 25k can never buy even slightly close to work. God help you if you're on less than that.

 

[DarloRich]

This is just nonsense for many people, particularly younger people or those with young families. Are you middle aged or a boomer by any chance? Not noticed the extortionate cost of rents in London or house prices which leaves a great many people completely unable to move? The circumstances that existed post war to the late 90s/early 2000s are gone. The choice existed then - it doesn't for many now.

Not noticed the concentration of jobs in central London away from suburbs and surrounding counties in the past 20 years plus?

There is NO other option for people served by much of SE - that is the problem. Such as those forced out to say zone 5 when up to 10 years ago they could live in zone 2-3 and use other means. Now it's zone 5/6 and train. Nothing else is remotely feasible, and there's no jobs locally that pay enough to even pay zone 5 rent or buy a house.

Seriously, look at changes in employment and housing in the past 10-20 years. Many older people seem to have no idea. They bought or had children and live in secure social housing before the circumstances changed massively relatively recently. A person on an average income of say 25k can never buy even slightly close to work. God help you if you're on less than that.

Thanks for the ever so slightly patronising response. Cheers. I am neither middle aged nor a boomer by the way and WELL aware of the cost of living in the South East of England. Try moving from the North East to the South East and comparing costs! I earn a bit more than average and well understand the financial pressure on people and the affordabilty of accomodation

But there is an option. Find a job in Manchester or Leeds or Glasgow or Belfast and accept a different way of life. I honestly don’t understand why people don’t.

None of that by the way explains why SE should allow their passengers to vote on the appointment of the MD or why they should cut their fares to a level agreed by the passengers.

 

[EM2]

He lives in Greenwich. A station that is staffed for much of the day, and has peak time trains to London Bridge in 7 minutes without any stops. Any issues and a train to Lewisham in 8 minutes and a DLR to Greenwich so little inconvenience. Probably not getting the same issues as many others...

You assume that he a) travels into London and b) that's the only journey that he does.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is NO other option for people served by much of SE - that is the problem. Such as those forced out to say zone 5 when up to 10 years ago they could live in zone 2-3 and use other means. Now it's zone 5/6 and train. Nothing else is remotely feasible, and there's no jobs locally that pay enough to even pay zone 5 rent or buy a house.

How about moving somewhere that isn't served by SE? Move to Romford, move to Elstree, move to Slough.

 

[DarloRich]

How about moving somewhere that isn't served by SE? Move to Romford, move to Elstree, move to Slough.

In fairness it isnt much better on those routes.

 

[EM2]

In fairness it isnt much better on those routes.

True...however, if you're in zone 5 or 6, there's also the option of using TfL if you go North of the river (e.g. Uxbridge/Ruislip/Ealing).

 

[otomous]

He lives in Greenwich. A station that is staffed for much of the day, and has peak time trains to London Bridge in 7 minutes without any stops. Any issues and a train to Lewisham in 8 minutes and a DLR to Greenwich so little inconvenience. Probably not getting the same issues as many others...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This is just nonsense for many people, particularly younger people or those with young families. Are you middle aged or a boomer by any chance? Not noticed the extortionate cost of rents in London or house prices which leaves a great many people completely unable to move? The circumstances that existed post war to the late 90s/early 2000s are gone. The choice existed then - it doesn't for many now.

Not noticed the concentration of jobs in central London away from suburbs and surrounding counties in the past 20 years plus?

There is NO other option for people served by much of SE - that is the problem. Such as those forced out to say zone 5 when up to 10 years ago they could live in zone 2-3 and use other means. Now it's zone 5/6 and train. Nothing else is remotely feasible, and there's no jobs locally that pay enough to even pay zone 5 rent or buy a house.

Seriously, look at changes in employment and housing in the past 10-20 years. Many older people seem to have no idea. They bought or had children and live in secure social housing before the circumstances changed massively relatively recently. A person on an average income of say 25k can never buy even slightly close to work. God help you if you're on less than that.

Hear hear, as soon as I saw the letter, I thought, yeah well he's in Greenwich! Little bit different to the outer zones with DLR, Jubilee and ELL in realistic reach and close enough to town to bus or cycle it. Not to mention a better frequency of SE services overall and just two stops to London Bridge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You assume that he a) travels into London and b) that's the only journey that he does.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How about moving somewhere that isn't served by SE? Move to Romford, move to Elstree, move to Slough.

On that basis we'll ask everyone in the poorer served areas of the North and South West to move to zone 3 in North London, cos then they'll be fine. A nonsense argument. Or all those who can afford to leave SE London and live somewhere pricier can leave and then they'll be able to downgrade us even further because we'll count even less.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Lost me after line 1 and just comes across as a wibbling whine which will very quickly be filled in the cabinet marked bin.

Where to start:

• No private company will offer its customers a vote on the appointment of the chief executive!!
  
  
• South Eastern IS just part of the transport portfolio held by Go Ahead.
  
  
• South Eastern passengers, despite what many clearly think, are no more special than other season ticket holders. It seems they think because they live in the South East they should be afforded god like status. Should I point out that many season ticket holders on other TOCS endure similar services on less modern, less well specified rolling stock? Their services also run MUCH less often than SE services, nor are there a plethora of alternative routes available. Try a pacer to work chaps.
  
  
• SE is part of a private company. They exist to make a return for their shareholders. That they should operate for the benefit of their customers seems, for the capitalist supermen of the South East, a worryingly communistic approach to business! Free market economics rule – until we have to pay for them?
  
  
• Funny how many people now using these services were the same ones crying out for privitisation. Free market economics rule – until we have to pay for them?
  
  
• Large sections of this rant show little or no understanding of how the railway system in or country operates. TRY to complain to the right people about the right things!
  
  
• It also shows the belief among many passengers, especially fellow season ticket holders, in the existence of the Haynes Manual of Railway Operations - Would that the world worked like that.

I could go on but can’t be bothered.

The simple fact is that if you don’t like the service on offer you have a choice. In fact you have 2. Move somewhere else or get to work by a different means. You choose to use these services, live where you do and work in Central London. Sorry if that sounds harsh but welcome to the capitalist world. Until you vote with your feet/wallet nothing will change.

Well we live in a capitalist world with lots of state intervention to make it less of a hell hole. We subsidise transport to allow people to travel to work, shops, leisure etc rather than inflict clearances on them by stealth. Moving is NOT an option for everyone. You may work in a business or a profession that requires you to be where you are. Retraining to change jobs might not be available to everyone. You may not be able to afford to move to an area that is better served. Your partner might be unable to leave his or her job so that you can move. Your children might be at a critical stage at school which moving would upset. You might have elderly relatives that you can't just up and leave to it. SE operates trains in a corner of the biggest city in the UK, not some rural backwater, and for many reasons, many of which are not its fault, these trains have been historically poor. Just saying move elsewhere is NOT a satisfactory answer. TfL believed it could do a better job because it recognised this and has effectively been thwarted by anti-democractic moves by people that SE Londoners can't elect or lobby.

 

[DarloRich]

Moving is NOT an option for everyone. You may work in a business or a profession that requires you to be where you are. Retraining to change jobs might not be available to everyone. You may not be able to afford to move to an area that is better served. Your partner might be unable to leave his or her job so that you can move. Your children might be at a critical stage at school which moving would upset. You might have elderly relatives that you can't just up and leave to it.

None of those, really, are reasons not to move but excuses people trot out when they dont want to move. I know, because i used many of them myself!

SE operates trains in a corner of the biggest city in the UK, not some rural backwater, and for many reasons, many of which are not its fault, these trains have been historically poor.

Agreed - things could, and should, be better. That is the same for many TOCS

Just saying move elsewhere is NOT a satisfactory answer.

Not to poor service provision (which i dont necessarily agree with) or old trains or bad customer service but it is to the cost problem. If it is that hard to make ends meet why do it? Change your job, take a bit lower wage and move to Newcastle or Middlesbourgh or Preston or Carlisle.

Of course that takes time and is difficult

TfL believed it could do a better job because it recognised this and has effectively been thwarted by anti-democractic moves by people that SE Londoners can't elect or lobby.

Such as ? I am unclear what you mean here.

 

[EM2]

Moving is NOT an option for everyone.

But it is an option for many.

You may work in a business or a profession that requires you to be where you are. Retraining to change jobs might not be available to everyone. You may not be able to afford to move to an area that is better served. Your partner might be unable to leave his or her job so that you can move. Your children might be at a critical stage at school which moving would upset. You might have elderly relatives that you can't just up and leave to it.

Might, might, might. But for many people I'd bet that none of those apply, and for those that does, they can still bite the bullet and do it.
I had a schoolfriend who, right in middle of the run-up to his O-levels, was uprooted by his family so that his journey to school took two hours instead of twenty minutes.
My Mum saved a fortune by giving up commuting to Mayfair from Maidstone, and getting a job locally.
When we were still in Maidstone, I got a job in Windsor. The commute was horrific, so I moved.
People do it all the time.

 

[hassaanhc]

Interesting set of responses here of experiences and factors I hadn't thought about last night (well I was tired! ). At first I thought it was a misguided rant and not understanding the problems being faced, pretty similar to what DarloRich posted.

As someone who lives in South London I travel on SN, SWT, SE, FCC and LO often and I must say that Southeastern are frankly terrible. The 465s always have sticky floors and in summer are boiling inside. I have to deal with Southerns lateness all the time, Southeastern not so much, I seem to just be lucky there. It's not hard to work out Southeasterns problems just after one journey. They haven't even bothered to install Air Con on the 376s and have the 375s ever been refurbished since construction?

Most stations are ungated with some only having gates in the ticket office, while all the other entrances don't. Catford Bridge has 5 entrances, only one have gates and 3 entrances are open all day - theres no point having gates at all.

I don't have an issue with frequency in the London suburbs - its the best thing about the network however, its fares are insane and I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a member of its staff smile. The franchise should have never of been extended, frankly its always been bad: Connex South Eastern, South Eastern Trains and now Southeastern. It should have been part of TSGN, the new franchise model could work well and competition only exists between London Bridge and Tonbridge. Then again all the money still ultimately goes to Govia anyway.

Yes I do think the Networker stock has an unloved sort of feel to it. Mostly untouched inside and poor airflow due to the tiny opening windows, not helped by the low speeds. They also feel cramped, and if I ever use their services (only due to bashing various lines, not for any real purpose) I always hope a 375 or 376 turns up, due to the more spacious interior. Frequencies of 6tph on many London lines is actually very good, no doubt helped by the three terminals at the London end (even if service pattern becomes complex and more chance of junction conflicts).

SE also suffers from some inbuilt issues:

1. Services pass through London Bridge - the most congested station in the country (they actually TT more trains in the peak than the theoretical maximum). Hopefully the changes to this station as part of Thameslink will improve things there.
2. It has the slowest services in the SE due to the infrastructure.
3. Due to the slow speeds and the rather higgledy-piggledy nature of the routes, it takes a lot of time to cover the area.

I happen to know Dave Statham quite well and I think that he's one of the 'good guys', and he has a strong focus on customer service. However I think even Jesus H Christ on a Harley Davidson would struggle to turn SE around quickly.

I wonder how many junction conflicts the desire to serve at least two London Terminals causes? Only leads to more confusion and no simple service pattern.

I agree. We all know that commuters aren't easy to please but to actually say as much to their faces! I'm always taken aback by how satisfied c2c passengers are considering that it's almost solely a commuter operation but then it's reliably at the top of the punctuality table (with London Overground) and perhaps enough people remember the BR days still. Obviously the Southeastern network is much more complex and the bottleneck that is London Bridge probably takes more than its fair share of causing delays but I'm sure there's something to be learned there. I'd say that HS1 passengers are probably much more satisfied with their experience than passengers from the rest of the network, but then they also feel more aggrieved because of their higher fares.

Yeah that was a stupid thing to say . I think c2c seem good because their routes are fairly self contained and not particularly congested? The interior condition of the 357s is also very good, and all air conditioned, compared to the 376/465/466. Greater Anglia people also seem to suffer from a lot of delays due to various reasons. FCC aren't liked either, mostly due to things outside their control.

There's just too many trains that are short. It's been known for decades more stock is needed. There were supposed to be 12 car trains in the early 90s for metro routes. The 2 car 466s were only introduced as that 12 car plan was cut due to the early '90s recession, so maximum lengths were cut to 10 car - 2 465 plus 1 466 = 10 cars instead of 3x 465 intended. Though you rarely see 10 cars running in the peaks even now. An inadequate 6 car is just as likely.

Now millions have been spent finally upgrading the remaining infrastructure to 12 car that wasn't finished in early 90s, but no new stock soon to do much about it. One of the last TOCs in line for more in London in the coming years.

When you look at how much new stock Southern have got over the years, I'm sure many people think Southern put their own funding for the stock! :P It's just that Southeastern haven't been lucky in gaining more trains, and the franchising model makes it very uneconomic for TOC to put their own funding for trains. Unfortunately Southeastern have to wait. No wonder why they want Tube lines extended, due to the much more frequent and standardised service available.

Lost me after line 1 and just comes across as a wibbling whine which will very quickly be filled in the cabinet marked bin.

Where to start:

• No private company will offer its customers a vote on the appointment of the chief executive!!
  
  
• South Eastern IS just part of the transport portfolio held by Go Ahead.
  
  
• South Eastern passengers, despite what many clearly think, are no more special than other season ticket holders. It seems they think because they live in the South East they should be afforded god like status. Should I point out that many season ticket holders on other TOCS endure similar services on less modern, less well specified rolling stock? Their services also run MUCH less often than SE services, nor are there a plethora of alternative routes available. Try a pacer to work chaps.
  
  
• SE is part of a private company. They exist to make a return for their shareholders. That they should operate for the benefit of their customers seems, for the capitalist supermen of the South East, a worryingly communistic approach to business! Free market economics rule – until we have to pay for them?
  
  
• Funny how many people now using these services were the same ones crying out for privitisation. Free market economics rule – until we have to pay for them?
  
  
• Large sections of this rant show little or no understanding of how the railway system in or country operates. TRY to complain to the right people about the right things!
  
  
• It also shows the belief among many passengers, especially fellow season ticket holders, in the existence of the Haynes Manual of Railway Operations - Would that the world worked like that.

I could go on but can’t be bothered.

The simple fact is that if you don’t like the service on offer you have a choice. In fact you have 2. Move somewhere else or get to work by a different means. You choose to use these services, live where you do and work in Central London. Sorry if that sounds harsh but welcome to the capitalist world. Until you vote with your feet/wallet nothing will change.

Yeah I thought a lot of it was nonsense, in common with the views many season ticket holders have about the railway.
They have no idea about how much the TOC has their hands tied with various things, especially getting more trains. Many think there there is a whole stash of rolling stock hidden somewhere, and TOCs deliberately want to disrupt the services.
How many spare staff are companies going to keep, where are they going to be based, and what routes will they sign? And stock can't be switched easily during disruption due to maintenance limits and other restrictions. And the reaction towards the missing out of stops to recover the service, not wanting to understand that there is no other way to recover the service (I have been shocked at how easily that recovers time, I recall a 20 late train that ran fast for 10-15 stops (normally 40 mins journey time) and made up the time so was on time for next trip). I know it is a bitter pill to swallow and affects you more, but how will things get back to normal otherwise?
Signalling and trains break, like everything else. Most of it is not due to "incompetence" or poor maintenance!
Some would probably rather have 0 coaches rather than 4 if not enough units are available for the usual 8 coach service.
Yes there are some commuters that understand the problems, but sadly many of them have unreasonable views, often with no willingness to understand :roll:. The TOC does not set out with the intention to make your journey hell.
Or what about thinking they're too important to take an earlier train (wherever possible) if they keep getting delayed? I'd probably do that eventually.
Everyone thinks they can run the railway better, in which case why don't they apply for employment with a TOC!
If only it was so easy!

I do hope my views don't turn out to be unreasonable, but the bottom line is I have very few problems when using the railway, even if I don't normally use it where timing is absolutely critical. I use FGW and SWT. Compared to buses, the railway is much more reliable (ask anymore in the Southall area using the 120, which is badly affected by major roadworks in the middle of the route).

The main issues for me have always been:

• The lack of communication
• The number of unmanned stations
• The focus on HS1 above all other services
• The reduction to 1tph at many stations as a result of the above

Lack of communication seems to be a common problem amongst many TOCs. The only time I've got caught up in major disruption was when I deliberately went to get a train from Southall after the lightning strike at Reading a month or two ago. It was annoying that a cancellation was not entered into the system, but I'm not sure how much more they could have done towards ensuring the first train in an hour had more than 3 cars. I was also at the far end of the platform, where there was no screen or speakers nearby.

 

[Busaholic]

Even considering you can never please everyone, and you'll always get this sort of letter, the public's general opinion towards SE's metro services in general indicates a chronic public image and customer relations problem. And frankly, if you try travelling on a stopper from Victoria, it's not hard to see why.

A confusing rat's nest of routes, appalling internal conditions on the 465s, and poorly signposted stations in south London with Oyster readers regularly out of use or broken in some way. Even little details are annoying. The way the CIS changes to "arrived" as soon as the train enters the signal block—there is no excuse for this, it comes across to customers as lying when there's another minute or two before the train is actually standing at the platform.

Admittedly there are a lot of factors working against them, not all of their own doing, but SN and SWT arguably have similar problems and have at least made efforts to maintain customer relations by holding passenger forums and so forth, improve the customer experience, and made their plans for improvements clear. Meanwhile, SE, on being voted bottom in that Which? poll, made that wretched statement saying it was because they were a commuter TOC, taking people to work, etc.

I am certainly not someone who believes in the "customer is always right" billhooks, and of course a Which? survey is going to have self-selection bias, but for goodness' sake: the bottom line is that you have some unhappy customers. The least you can do is apologise to those customers, and promise to try to do better in future.

Frankly, given that sort of attitude, it is no wonder many of SE's customers believe the company has contempt for them—and neither is it surprising that they hold contempt for the Company.

Oh for that halcyon period post- Connex when it was back in the public domain and things were improving. Allowing ANY company to have adjoining franchises is not only inviting trouble but positively stirring it up.

 

[DarloRich]

The main issues for me have always been:

• The lack of communication

• 
  
  

  Lack of communication seems to be a common problem amongst many TOCs. The only time I've got caught up in major disruption was when I deliberately went to get a train from Southall after the lightning strike at Reading a month or two ago. It was annoying that a cancellation was not entered into the system, but I'm not sure how much more they could have done towards ensuring the first train in an hour had more than 3 cars. I was also at the far end of the platform, where there was no screen or speakers nearby.

  
  I honestly dont think it is a LACK of communication which is the problem but a lack of customer understanding and acknowledgement of that communication.
  
  Whenever people talk about communication in this sense what they often mean (and want ) is a detailed communication telling them exactly how long trains will be stopped for but things really aren't that easy or simple.
  
  On the TOC side there really is no excuse for not getting the message out. Social media offers an quick and easy route to promulgate that information. London Midland are very good at using this route. It is so easy and i assume cheap!
  
  I appreciate SE aren't fantastic in this regard but you would hope internal best practice could be shared throughout group companies.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes I do think the Networker stock has an unloved sort of feel to it. Mostly untouched inside and poor airflow due to the tiny opening windows, not helped by the low speeds. They also feel cramped, and if I ever use their services (only due to bashing various lines, not for any real purpose) I always hope a 375 or 376 turns up, due to the more spacious interior. Frequencies of 6tph on many London lines is actually very good, no doubt helped by the three terminals at the London end (even if service pattern becomes complex and more chance of junction conflicts).

The Networkers do seem a bit tired now. I once used the loo in one and the interior seemed a lot more etched and graphitied than anything I've seen on a 14* or 15*. Then again, it has been 20 years, so perhaps its about time for a refurb. That plus lots and lots of flat junctions.

I have to say, I've not had many issues using them for the last few years and the family seem to like this new high speed thingy.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

He lives in Greenwich. A station that is staffed for much of the day, and has peak time trains to London Bridge in 7 minutes without any stops. Any issues and a train to Lewisham in 8 minutes and a DLR to Greenwich so little inconvenience. Probably not getting the same issues as many others...

To be pedantic, his locality is given as Greenwich. Realistically, that means his local station could plausibly be any of the four stations between Deptford and Westcombe Park.

 

[ComUtoR]

Southeastern have regular "meet the manager" sessions. The next one is 18th September at Charing Cross

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/contact/meet-the-manager/

Rather than a faceless rant on twitter I'm sure they would welcome any "feedback" and give any inquiring minds some enlightenment.


I am a regular SE user for both work and leisure and find that they are often vilified unfairly. They have some issues for sure but nothing I haven't experienced elsewhere.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The Networkers were "cutting edge" suburban trains when introduced - trashed by the locals when Connex took over (who paid no attention to the interiors - something like 95% of the windows were etched - course they had to pay to restore them to inherited state) - of course it would help if a good number of the users actually paid something towards their journeys - not just Metro pax , but even well paid bankers from Stonegate. I use them sporadically to Blackheath and Maze Hill - and find Southeastern quite acceptable. It is the major disruptions and bad weather problems that people find unacceptable. I refer you to S Poole's book on being a SE Station Manager (OK 1980's) to find the detail on how tricky it is to run a service down there. ..

 

[Bald Rick]

As someone who has been on the 'staff side' of meet the manager events, I have always been pleasantly surprised how nice the majority of southeastern punters are.

There is of course always the occasional individual who wants to talk about the latest in traction motor inverter power ratings, or non-standard seat moquettes, and the slightly more frequent individuals that shout "you should be ashamed of yourself" before carrying on to their jobs in a bank. But on the whole most punters who bother to stop seem to be satisfied.