They were initially diverted to Weybridge before the 2004 full recast to avoid the need for a shuttle between Staines and Weybridge and then turned into stoppers at the time of the recast. I seem to recall that the shuttles were blamed for delays on the line.
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Ideas for South West franchise going forward
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They were initially diverted to Weybridge before the 2004 full recast to avoid the need for a shuttle between Staines and Weybridge and then turned into stoppers at the time of the recast. I seem to recall that the shuttles were blamed for delays on the line.
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Goldfish62
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Agreed - it can marginally quicker to get the bus from Twickenham.
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4tph runs in the peaks and used to in the off-peak. The paths are there so bring it on. There are difficulties in speeding up the Reading service, so restoration of 4tph would be a fair substitute.
southern442
Established Member
What about a shuttle from, say, Exeter Central to Yeovil Pen Mill, so as to make that journey less of a nightmare.
I have previously suggested that if the electrification of the WofE line reach as far as Yeovil it would allow a cross platfrom change from DMU to EMU, with the DMU running Exeter to Westbury (stopping). In doing so it would provide a better link between the two lines as well as other benefits.
For instance if such a service arrived at Westbury just before a GW service to London it wouldn't matter so much that it didn't call at the minor stations (espicially if the rules were relaxed so that longer distance travellers from the west could go via Westbury, but not exit the staion, to get to Castle Cary, Burton and Frome).
There may still be a desire to run through trains from West of Yeovil, but they could run every two or even every three hours, which would dramicly reduce the number of DMU's which SWT's would need. They could even use 22x's as full 10 coach sets (so as to have a similar number of seats as the exiting 10 coach trains formed of 158's and 159's) if there was a lack of work for them (which there may well be by or during CP7, but with still upto 10 years of life left in them, whilst the 15x's would be needing to retire) which would otherwise see the 22x's idle (but would result in a number of end coaches in store). Of course that would very much depend on where the 22x's go next.
If the Sailsbury to Southampton line was also electrified so that the Sailsbury 6 service could also be run by EMU that would allow the Sailsbury 6 service to couple up with another EMU from Yeovil at Sailsbuury and run into Waterloo, doing the reverse on the way out again.
However all of the above is a fair way off, at the very least CP6, if not CP7.
I could not understand your last paragraphs. Could you possibly rephrase them and also explain what 'Salisbury 6' is, please? I tried a search but nothing came up (to do with trains anyway).
It is a nickname given to the Salisbury > Romsey > Southampton Central > Romsey circular services as it looks like a 6 on their network map!
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W14686/2014/07/29
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smoky_bacon
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What I would like to see in the (as near as possible) future is:
1) SWT to take over North Down line to serve Reading-Gatwick, although not sure where the trains for this could be stabled/maintained.
2) Introducing Alton-Guildford direct service 2tph to relieve A31 and A331. Especially that the plan for building Park Barn station (near hospital, Research Park, Sports Centre and Tesco) is likely to go ahead.
Not sure what to do then with Guildford-Ascot service though (shorten to Aldershot-Ascot maybe?).
3) Introduce trains to serve Bordon. I Read a report (although written in 2010 or so) with different options studied and the most likely is extension from Bentley or Farnham to Bordon and the trains would split off Alton services in Farnham (did not say about Sunday when Altons already split off Basingstokes at Woking).
I liked more their second best idea of going further and joining it at the other end also with Portsmouth line in Liss or Liphook. Although it was almost twice as costly in my opinion could bring some other benefits, ie. more people from Alton/Farnham/Aldershot/Bordon using trains to go to South Coast (provided the fares would not discourage them) and maybe it could be used as diverted route if something goes wrong between Haslemere and Woking Junction.
4) Easy access to Crossrail from Guildford, Woking or Surbiton.
Any thoughts, anyone?
1) SWT to take over North Down line to serve Reading-Gatwick, although not sure where the trains for this could be stabled/maintained.
2) Introducing Alton-Guildford direct service 2tph to relieve A31 and A331. Especially that the plan for building Park Barn station (near hospital, Research Park, Sports Centre and Tesco) is likely to go ahead.
Not sure what to do then with Guildford-Ascot service though (shorten to Aldershot-Ascot maybe?).
3) Introduce trains to serve Bordon. I Read a report (although written in 2010 or so) with different options studied and the most likely is extension from Bentley or Farnham to Bordon and the trains would split off Alton services in Farnham (did not say about Sunday when Altons already split off Basingstokes at Woking).
I liked more their second best idea of going further and joining it at the other end also with Portsmouth line in Liss or Liphook. Although it was almost twice as costly in my opinion could bring some other benefits, ie. more people from Alton/Farnham/Aldershot/Bordon using trains to go to South Coast (provided the fares would not discourage them) and maybe it could be used as diverted route if something goes wrong between Haslemere and Woking Junction.
4) Easy access to Crossrail from Guildford, Woking or Surbiton.
Any thoughts, anyone?
If they could do something to stop Ascot services from Guildford waiting for 10 minutes at Aldershot that would be good but I suspect for the cost vers usage it's not economic.
Less bothered about South West Trains taking over the Gatwick line but perhaps it wouldn't hurt if they had space to stable the trains. I doubt they do.
Less bothered about South West Trains taking over the Gatwick line but perhaps it wouldn't hurt if they had space to stable the trains. I doubt they do.
They do that so they connect with the Waterloo and Alton services.
I guess they can't leave later from Guildford or Ascot. As for connecting with the Alton service. Officially going to Alton at least, one has to wait 33 minutes or there abouts because the following services arrives under the minimum connection time. I'm well aware it's possible but only after figuring it out and not going via other methods, as I had done previously because I thought I'd have to hang around at Aldershot station for 30 minutes. If that makes sense.
Why? What improvements would this deliver?
North Downs line is a bit of an odd line, which could fit into one of three (or even 4 if you consider XC) franchises. Whichever franchise had it would have it's problems and advantages. I think until it becomes an electric line there is little point changing it.
Gven that Alton to Guildford would be 40 minutes, I think that there could be a case for extending such a service to Godalming (48 minutes) as otherwise the trains would be sat idel for two thirds of the time. It would also mean that residents in Farnham could get to their District Council offices without changing trains (compared with two changes now) as well as giving both lines a better service.
I think that a service to Borden is a good idea, I disagree about heading to Liss or Liphook as (although it would enable people to get to their District Council Offices in Petersfield more easily) the main draw of people is towards the north, as a lot of students would be going to Alton College and the Blackwater Valley has a lot more employment opertunities.
I might be tempted to go a step further and look at a Blackwater Valley Metro system, basicly utilising the existing three lines and looking at ways of providing better interconectivity (looking at some of the points raise in the above three points) and providing more stations (either at locations where extra passengers would be drawn to and/or to provide shorter walking links between lines). Which as the urban area has a poulation of 242,000 people (a little below Plymouth and a bit ahead of Milton Keynes), could well see a step increase in the number of people who use rail to get about.
Woking and Surbiton, yes. Guildford, maybe, but only for services not via Woking.
SpacePhoenix
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If the Heart of Wessex Line was doubled tracked all the way and electrified, with a connecting line to make it a triangular junction at Dorchester, could SWT then run trains from Weymouth-Bristol and possibly have some trains instead of going to Weymouth, heading along that line, giving Poole and Bournemouth better links to the XC and other services at Bristol TM?
No, that would be a ludicrous idea. It wouldn't save any time on going via Southampton and if you were going to spend the sort of money on the Heart of Wessex line that your idea entails, you would be better spending it on the line from Bristol to Southampton.
I cannot see SWT having anything to do with the Heart Of Wessex line between Bristol and Weymouth. In it's current state with single line sections, reduced speeds, overcrowding and frequent delays over 10 minutes I don't think changing the operator will make any difference, at least until changes are made to what's been mentioned. SWT's diesel depot is at Salisbury, with no easy access to the Heart Of Wessex line and it is arguable that the Bristol Temple Meads services only run to give passengers in the west a direct link to Waterloo, and these services are lightly used as it is. Bristol and stations to Castle Cary are all in a FGW "catchment" area and mainly focus on bringing passengers from these stations a direct link to the beach in summer (obviously they act as a stopping service too and are essential for connecting the smaller stations). It would not be cost effective to electrify the Heart Of Wessex line anytime soon and many Weymouth trains currently run through to either Gloucester or Great Malvern which seems to work pretty well at the moment, in the way of using less stock. I just think it's a bad idea and there are bigger issues with the line, rather than changing operators.
Now an Exeter - Westbury/Reading service via. Yeovil, there may be a case for, however. Maybe calling at: Exeter Central, Honiton, Axminster, Crewkerne, Yeovil Junction, Yeovil Pen Mill, Castle Cary, Bruton, Frome and Westbury. With some services extended to Pewsey, Bedwyn, Hungerford, Kintbury, Newbury, Thatcham, Theale and Reading? Perhaps this is still more possible with FGW rather than SWT though.
Now an Exeter - Westbury/Reading service via. Yeovil, there may be a case for, however. Maybe calling at: Exeter Central, Honiton, Axminster, Crewkerne, Yeovil Junction, Yeovil Pen Mill, Castle Cary, Bruton, Frome and Westbury. With some services extended to Pewsey, Bedwyn, Hungerford, Kintbury, Newbury, Thatcham, Theale and Reading? Perhaps this is still more possible with FGW rather than SWT though.
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Could Camberley (and Wokingham, Bracknell etc for that matter) not just have a faster service from London via the Staines line? Say one train an hour calling only at Clapham Junction, Richmond, Staines, Ascot then front portion Reading rear portion Guildford via Aldershot? ISTR services on the Staines line being significantly faster in the 80s, though even then Camberley required a change at Ascot (apart from 2 or 3 years at the end of the 80s)
One of the two existing stoppers to Reading from London could then terminate at Ascot just ahead of the fast train, for connections from the smaller stations.
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SWT do seem to time trains so they dont connect, at least officially.
One of my pet hates!
I see the SWT departures from Exeter have been retimed a minute earlier (and so make the connection out of the Northbound XC service more difficult) except the 0826 which is now timed at 0823 making it impossible for the many passengers from Newton Abbot etc to catch it up to Central as the XC isnt booked to arrive until 0820, the SWT service then sits at Honiton for 4 minutes. Well done SWT, really good customer service, not!
I know it's a fairly obscure flow, but try getting from a Southampton-Portsmouth stopper onto a Portsmouth-Waterloo stopper! 59 min connection at Hilsea last time I looked.
What I find a little annoying is how the connections from just about all the trains which stop at St Denys (whether at Central or Parkway) are pretty poor (Mon-Sat; Sunday is actually better). Often it's quicker for me to walk to Central or Parkway! Also the 2 trains an hour into Central are at xx30 and xx31! Ironically when engineering forces the Salisbury services to run Salisbury-Romsey-Eastleigh-Southampton-terminates, the service interval, and connections, are far better.
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Much as I would like to see it, it isn't going to ever happen - if you used the current xx20 path, it would be behind the Kingston stopper at Twickenham and be behind the Weybridge service at Feltham. Given the arrangements where the Hounslow via Richmond stopper then follows from Barnes, I don't think you could squeeze in an xx22 semi-fast to Ascot. It can't go at xx 35 because of the Windsor service at xx28.
Moreover, an increase in the use of the level crossing would be contested by residents along the route.
There were fewer stopping services in the past.
So I guess the problem is that this line was not built for frequent stopping services within London, i.e. it's not 4-track beyond Barnes (IIRC) so there's no room for fast services.
It looks like most of the stoppers existed in 1950 (yes, a long long time ago and 30+ years before my earliest rail memories, but the only documented source I can immediately bring up: http://www.timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=6§ion_id=1765) except the Weybridge service running out of the Hounslow loop - that seems to be the "killer" on more fast services. Meanwhile the Weybridges were detached off the Windsors - and they managed to run Windsor/Weybridges every 20 minutes during the peak.
Could they run the Weybridge services fast from Hounslow to Staines? Might that free up paths?
I have no particular connection with this part of the world BTW, just curious.
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starrymarkb
Established Member
158s are fine to Exmouth - they need to use Local Door at St James's Park (but so do a pair of 153s) - they were common on the Devon Metro back in 2006-7
HarleyDavidson
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Back in the 1980's there used to be a fast service from Reading, 36 headcode. They used to be supplemented by a service from Guildford via Ascot, 27 & 28 headcodes & 35 headcodes.
36 - Clapham, Richmond, Staines, Ascot, Bracknell, Wokingham & VV.
28 - All stations from Guildford to Staines, Feltham, Twickenham, Richmond, Clapham or via Hounslow, as above to Feltham, Hounslow, Clapham.
35 - All stations Guildford to Reading via Ascot.
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May I take this opportunity to answer this.
1. Transferring the North Downs line to SWT would make sense, along with the transference of Basingstoke - Reading, especially with the new layout at Reading almost making conflicts a thing of the past. The transfer of the North Downs would eliminate another TOC on TOC delay scenario, it means that SWT could then use 2 units one from either direction and form a 6 car set to Waterloo from Guildford in the AM/PM peaks, to take some of the locals off the buses & out of their cars. Adding the Basingstoke - Reading section to the North Downs line could effectively give passengers from S&NE Hampshire an easier route to Gatwick.
Stabling of stock could take place at Guildford, Reading or Redhill, this would probably involve some night shifts for train drivers & guards,but would eliminate 99% of empty running or travelling or if the route between Guildford & Woking were cleared for the stock, possibly stored in the currently unused sidings behind platform 6 at Woking.
2. The station at Park Barn or near Tesco & RSCH is a good idea, however it could be thwarted by the steep gradient out of Guildford towards Ash/Reading. I dont know if the authorities would be very supportive of a station being built on such a gradient.
3. Bordon "Newtown", if that happens it will be a small miracle, land speculators have been buying the trackbed to force the price up, if it were built, then it would be a good idea to create a through link to Liss, however it should be borne in mind that the old line required a reversal at Bordon & it was a separate railway beyond Bordon towards Liss.
You also have the big problem of the A3 dual carriageway at Longmoor, although that could be an ideal place to build a "Parkway" station, then you have the industrial estate at Liss to deal with, along with a level crossing & two houses.
4. Crossrail 2 as it may become is a long way away and if it does secure funding, it will more than likely be well outside the second franchise.
36 - Clapham, Richmond, Staines, Ascot, Bracknell, Wokingham & VV.
28 - All stations from Guildford to Staines, Feltham, Twickenham, Richmond, Clapham or via Hounslow, as above to Feltham, Hounslow, Clapham.
35 - All stations Guildford to Reading via Ascot.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
May I take this opportunity to answer this.
1. Transferring the North Downs line to SWT would make sense, along with the transference of Basingstoke - Reading, especially with the new layout at Reading almost making conflicts a thing of the past. The transfer of the North Downs would eliminate another TOC on TOC delay scenario, it means that SWT could then use 2 units one from either direction and form a 6 car set to Waterloo from Guildford in the AM/PM peaks, to take some of the locals off the buses & out of their cars. Adding the Basingstoke - Reading section to the North Downs line could effectively give passengers from S&NE Hampshire an easier route to Gatwick.
Stabling of stock could take place at Guildford, Reading or Redhill, this would probably involve some night shifts for train drivers & guards,but would eliminate 99% of empty running or travelling or if the route between Guildford & Woking were cleared for the stock, possibly stored in the currently unused sidings behind platform 6 at Woking.
2. The station at Park Barn or near Tesco & RSCH is a good idea, however it could be thwarted by the steep gradient out of Guildford towards Ash/Reading. I dont know if the authorities would be very supportive of a station being built on such a gradient.
3. Bordon "Newtown", if that happens it will be a small miracle, land speculators have been buying the trackbed to force the price up, if it were built, then it would be a good idea to create a through link to Liss, however it should be borne in mind that the old line required a reversal at Bordon & it was a separate railway beyond Bordon towards Liss.
You also have the big problem of the A3 dual carriageway at Longmoor, although that could be an ideal place to build a "Parkway" station, then you have the industrial estate at Liss to deal with, along with a level crossing & two houses.
4. Crossrail 2 as it may become is a long way away and if it does secure funding, it will more than likely be well outside the second franchise.
Rich McLean
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The current plan is as follows for the Devon Metro off peak:
1tph Barnstable - Exeter St Davids then Semi fast to Exmouth (Class 158)
1tph Exmouth - Paignton all shacks (Class 150)
1tph Paignton - Exeter St Davids semi fast (Dawlish - EXD Non Stop Class 150/158) apart from the hour where XC or HSS pick up this path
This gives Exeter - Torbay 2tph
Turbo's will make it down as far as Paignton on Cardiff - Paignton and Return Diagram, while 1 x 158 will come down on a Cardiff - Plymouth Diagram and another will come up from Penzance to Cardiff in the morning. the 0524 BRI - PZN and 0624 BPW - EXD will also be 158s, with 2 x 158 going up to Bristol from Exeter the night before. These will be swapped for maintenance and keep crew knowledge on 158s for Bristol Crews
The rest of the 158s will be on Exeter/Plymouth - Penzance Diagrams, together with 150s/153s on early and late turns in order to move stock around for the Cornish Branches and Guinnislake branch
Not set in stone, but that is the plan, unless the Dft have other ideas and send the 158s North
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I think those ideas are a little misplaced:
1. Six coach trains into Waterloo in the peak, no matter where they come from, are a waste of track capacity.
2. Basingstoke to Reading would be better linked into express trains to Paddington than having through trains to the North Downs Line (although the Paddington train idea requires electrification from Reading to Basingstoke). I don't think the layout at Reading does lend itself to through trains through platform 7 between the Basingstoke and North Downs Line. Are you suggesting that people would travel on direct trains from Basingstoke to Gatwick. That is not a quick route.
3. There would still be the potential for TOC on TOC delays at the east end of the route. Is it important to eliminate TOC on TOC delays? What problem does this solve?
4. Even if (diesel) stock could be stabled at Guildford, it would still need to run to a depot for servicing - are you suggesting they run to Salisbury for this?
5. Early arrivals and late departures at Gatwick are key and passengers use the line to connect at Reading. Indeed, you can argue that it is most appropriate for FGW to run the trains because of the connections into trains at Reading.
While it remains a diesel route, it is appropriate for the North Downs line to be run from the Reading end by the Great Western franchise with some stabling at Redhill.
Where is this slack coming from?
They dont have much time at the terminus stations to turn around so the only other way would be to cut out station stops which sort of defeats the object of running the service if it isnt going to stop at the stations en route.
Rapidash
Member
I dunno, but sounds like a lot more hassle to me, as that's alot of services coming up from Torbay on which people will be wanting to go up to EXC, and I doubt the connections will be there for it.Hope I'm wrong, as the extra capacity from the 158's will be very welcome. 153 Shuttle service ala Queen Street - Cardiff Bay perhaps?!
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The only way would be a recast of the timetable. Perhaps it isn't possible but I doubt FGW want their services to keep running late. It's not by tens of minutes but over the course of a year, I'm sure they add up and every minute triggers fines to which ever company is said to have caused it.
HarleyDavidson
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Well as someone who knows the patch and has lived and worked on it for nearly 50 years, I think I have more than enough experience to know what's what.
1. 6 car trains are NOT a waste of pathways, they're an integral part of it, there are several in the AM/PM peak times and it is always better to a 6 car train than a 0 car train, also you seem to forget that the maxima for the SWT patch is 10 coaches when it comes to 158 & 159 trains.
2. SWT could easily run a couple of morning trains up to Reading as 3 cars, bring them back to Basingstoke and attach to an Up London either a Salisbury - Waterloo or even the 6 car 159 set that originates in Portsmouth, whilst it's not going be the fastest, it would enable passenger from Bramley or Mortimer to have a seat, rather than fighting for one with the hoards at Reading.
As for creating Basingstoke - Gatwick as a direct service & saying it's not a quick route, you can say that equally about Southern's dreadfully unreliable Southampton - Gatwick (Victoria) service, that's just as bad.
Anyway, if you have a load of luggage & kids behind you, you want ease & simplicity and minimal changes of trains, creating a Basingstoke - Gatwick service would do that for passengers coming up from stations on the Salisbury line, as well as Winchester, Fleet etc.
These units could be provided from Salisbury after being serviced.
3. You seem to have forgotten that with the new layout at Reading, there will be a direct route from the from Oxford Road Jn, Cow Lane Jn, under the mainline to Platforms 10 - 15, with platforms 14 & 15 being the best options as the provide easy access to the reinstated dive under just off the end of those platforms.
4. What I am on about is by removing FGW from the equation, you get one less TOC on TOC delay (TDA has a lot to answer to in my mind, a 5h17 idea), by giving the North Downs line (I'll refer to it as NDL from now on), it eliminates a double whammy of delays.
For example, at the moment a FGW late runner impinges on SWT & SN and possibly FCC (TGSN as it will become).
Remove FGW and it becomes SWT on SN & FCC (TGSN), it is simply removing another layer of wasteful bureaucracy from the system, less paperwork, less managerial/back room staff needed to argue whose fault it is, so money saved in all departments, which is good thing.
Anyway the line will become integrated into Basingstoke ROC in the next 3 or so years so you might as well keep it within the deep alliance, so operationally it would be prudent to keep the whole lot together.
5. FGW to be quite honest couldn't & quite simply cannot run a decent service across the NDL, it's regularly late and it's one of the primary causes of delays on SWT's Portsmouth mainline services, the 0434 is one of the worst performers going, even after they retimed it, it still misses the connection into the 0514 to Waterloo at Guildford.
In my experience SWT has a bit of reputation for sorting out bad running trains.
The first trains can be berthed at Redhill, nothing to say that SWT crews could not do night work and stay with the trains overnight either at Redhill or Gatwick or if necessary run ECS from Guildford to either Redhill & Gatwick or Reading.
You may say that is a waste of money, but SWT already run ECS from Salisbury to both Yeovil Jn & Axminster each weekday morning, rather than provide a depot & fuelling point say at Exeter Central or on the former depot site at Exmouth Jn. Guildford to Reading & Redhill is a short hop by comparison.
Better still when the franchise comes up for renewal, integrate it into the SWT franchise, but a part of the franchise is that the franchisee has to electrify the NDL, but in return they get discounted new rolling stock & help to fund any necessary platform extensions, which would seem to be a reasonable deal for long term growth.
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Extra slack is easy, just electrify the line.
I notice that during peak rush hour to get from Basingstoke to Gatwick Airport passengers have to catch a train to Farnborough Main; walk to Farnborough North; catching a train to Redhill and then a train to Gatwick.
Alternatively they can catch a train to Waterloo; then a train to Clapham Junction and finally a train to Gatwick Airport.
Outside of peak rush hour they just need to catch a train to Clapham Junction and change there.
At least National Rail Enquiries allows passengers to double back via Waterloo or at least they show a ticket price which looking up the times.
Alternatively they can catch a train to Waterloo; then a train to Clapham Junction and finally a train to Gatwick Airport.
Outside of peak rush hour they just need to catch a train to Clapham Junction and change there.
At least National Rail Enquiries allows passengers to double back via Waterloo or at least they show a ticket price which looking up the times.
3141
Established Member
I don't think they have] to change between Farnborough Main and Farnborough North. If I leave Overton at 0820 I can change at Woking, get a train to Guildford, and then use a North Down Line train to Gatwick. It would take one hours 39 minutes, which is only ten minutes longer than going via Clapham Junction outside the peak hour.
The suggested change between the Farnborough stations is one of the theoretically possible but impractical routes that National Rail Enquiries sometimes produce.
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