New North Wales to Manchester train services

[LNW-GW Joint]

There must presumably be some mechanism for the DfT to specify service levels at stations in England?
I presume the two extra evening trains from Llandudno to the Junction are to meet the SLC, or whatever the current terminology is, on the branch.
;

I think the DfT retains rights to "English" services, but only from Shrewsbury (ie Shrewsbury-Crewe and Shrewsbury-Birmingham).
For whatever reason, the Chester services (ie Chester-Crewe and Chester-Manchester) lie with WG.
But even so, the WG can't ignore those lines, it has to manage the Borders bit as well as the Wales bit, and even-handedly at that.

 

[merlodlliw]

There must presumably be some mechanism for the DfT to specify service levels at stations in England?
I presume the two extra evening trains from Llandudno to the Junction are to meet the SLC, or whatever the current terminology is, on the branch.
;

I imagine Llandudno to the Junction require a given number of services within the franchise.

I think the DfT retains rights to "English" services, but only from Shrewsbury (ie Shrewsbury-Crewe and Shrewsbury-Birmingham).
For whatever reason, the Chester services (ie Chester-Crewe and Chester-Manchester) lie with WG.
But even so, the WG can't ignore those lines, it has to manage the Borders bit as well as the Wales bit, and even-handedly at that. LNW Joint

I am sure you are correct, part of the Wales & Borders franchise was an half hourly service Chester/Crewe. Hourly Chester/Manchester plus the 0712 ex Chester and 1719 ex Piccadilly.
The hourly Manchester/South Wales on Sundays is extra to the franchise requirements,being ATWs idea due to known passenger flows.

 

[SprinterMan]

The stopping pattern of the LHCS to Holyhead makes for interesting reading:

0950 Manchester Pic - Manchester Ox Rd (u) - Earlestown - Warrington Bk Qy - Chester - Flint - Rhyl - Colwyn Bay - Llandudno Jct - Bangor - Holyhead 1236

1303 Holyhead - Bangor - Llandudno Jct - Colwyn Bay - Abergele & Pensarn - Rhyl - Prestatyn - Flint - Chester - Helsby - Frodsham - Runcorn East - Warrington Bk Qy - Earlestown - Manchester Pic 1557

The new timetable in general also appears to leave some big gaps for Abergele & Pensarn during the day, which is a shame.

Adam

 

[merlodlliw]

The stopping pattern of the LHCS to Holyhead makes for interesting reading:

0950 Manchester Pic - Manchester Ox Rd (u) - Earlestown - Warrington Bk Qy - Chester - Flint - Rhyl - Colwyn Bay - Llandudno Jct - Bangor - Holyhead 1236

1303 Holyhead - Bangor - Llandudno Jct - Colwyn Bay - Abergele & Pensarn - Rhyl - Prestatyn - Flint - Chester - Helsby - Frodsham - Runcorn East - Warrington Bk Qy - Earlestown - Manchester Pic 1557

The new timetable in general also appears to leave some big gaps for Abergele & Pensarn during the day, which is a shame.

Adam

Well spotted about Abergele being a call on the Loco Hauled up train 1303 ex Holyhead,I missed that that,just leaves Shotton out,Agree about the gaps at Abergele,local AMs & MP have written to ATW about this.

 

[northwichcat]

The hourly Manchester/South Wales on Sundays is extra to the franchise requirements,being ATWs idea due to known passenger flows.

Obviously Chester-Crewe went to hourly when Virgin introduced an hourly Chester-London service, freeing up a unit for use elsewhere.

If the proposal for an hourly Chester-Yorkshire service goes ahead then I expect ATW won't be required to run peak time extras between Chester and Manchester any more. While I don't expect a Chester-Yorkshire service to include Frodsham and Helsby as standard calling points I imagine some peak time services would call at those stations.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Well spotted about Abergele being a call on the Loco Hauled up train 1303 ex Holyhead,I missed that that,just leaves Shotton out,Agree about the gaps at Abergele,local AMs & MP have written to ATW about this.

I know that it has been said before - by me and others - but I can't see anything inherently wrong with certain services missing out some stops. There is a tendency, it seems, to have 'all stations to (wherever)' services in Wales, which can be frustrating for those who travel from the larger stations...but I suppose that is the future and it will have to be accepted.

 

[Jez]

sorry if this has been mentioned but which diagram is a 175 going to replace a 158 on from Dec? (as a result of a 175 being freed up on the North Wales services. Is itone of the 3 South Wales diagrams or the North Wales coast 158?

 

[PHILIPE]

sorry if this has been mentioned but which diagram is a 175 going to replace a 158 on from Dec? (as a result of a 175 being freed up on the North Wales services. Is itone of the 3 South Wales diagrams or the North Wales coast 158?

It has already stated that it will be to increase 175/1s on the Marches Route.

 

[Jez]

It has already stated that it will be to increase 175/1s on the Marches Route.

That wasnt my question, my question was WHICH 158 diagram is to lose a 158 for the Cambrian services to gain an extra.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That wasnt my question, my question was WHICH 158 diagram is to lose a 158 for the Cambrian services to gain an extra.

Not on this tt change but 0700 Salop to Wrexham and 0747 Wrexham to BHM INTL is in frame.

 

[merlodlliw]

Not on this tt change but 0700 Salop to Wrexham and 0747 Wrexham to BHM INTL is in frame.

Correct the 0747 ex Wrexham/Birmingham is number one contender,ATW have been caught off guard on this, I got hold of the leak from a highly reliable source & informed SCRUA/AMs/MPs.
Objections from all have already been sent to ATW including one from a MEP,
ATW Cardiff media dept let the cat out of the bag when they informed a press colleague that Gerald may be used to fill in stops at Ruabon.Chirk and very busy Gobowen, up to now ATW have not denied the Wrexham service will transfer to the Cambrian,surprisingly ATW have informed a Shropshire MP, the blame lies with Welsh Government,

 

[berneyarms]

Correct the 0747 ex Wrexham/Birmingham is number one contender,ATW have been caught off guard on this, I got hold of the leak from a highly reliable source & informed SCRUA/AMs/MPs.
Objections from all have already been sent to ATW including one from a MEP,
ATW Cardiff media dept let the cat out of the bag when they informed a press colleague that Gerald may be used to fill in stops at Ruabon.Chirk and very busy Gobowen, up to now ATW have not denied the Wrexham service will transfer to the Cambrian,surprisingly ATW have informed a Shropshire MP, the blame lies with Welsh Government,

The fact remains that someone is going to have to lose out, so if Wrexham-Shrewsbury line commuters retain their train, someone else is going to lose theirs.

In this case a replacement service is being offered, albeit 15 minutes earlier with a change at Shrewsbury.

Not ideal, but with the rolling stock constraints, what else can be done?

I fail to see what a railway timetable change has to do with an MEP - an MP or AM yes, but where does it fit in an MEP's purview other than to be seen in the newspapers?

 

[merlodlliw]

The fact remains that someone is going to have to lose out, so if Wrexham-Shrewsbury line commuters retain their train, someone else is going to lose theirs.

In this case a replacement service is being offered, albeit 15 minutes earlier with a change at Shrewsbury.

Not ideal, but with the rolling stock constraints, what else can be done?

I fail to see what a railway timetable change has to do with an MEP - an MP or AM yes, but where does it fit in an MEP's purview other than to be seen in the newspapers?

If constituents complain to AMs/MPs etc about losing a direct service, then it is up to their elected representatives to support them.has for a West Midlands MEP thats interesting

I have just been informed of an on line petition, set up by commuters to save a direct Manchester service from North Wales.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/save-the-721-flint-manchester-train
this must be a first.


I have also been sent this comment By Darren Millar AM for Clwyd West

Thursday, 14 August, 2014
Clwyd West AM Darren Millar has written to Arriva Trains Wales after learning that its proposed new timetable does not include an early morning service from Abergele to Manchester.

The proposals show that from December, the current 0634 service from Llandudno to Manchester via Warrington, which stops at all stations including Abergele, is to be axed,

North Wales commuters needing to be in Manchester or Warrington by 9am for work will have to leave Colwyn Bay half an hour earlier at 0613, but this service will not be stopping at Abergele.

Commuters have also raised concerns that the current 0552 direct Manchester service out of Colwyn Bay is also under threat.

Darren said:

“I am very concerned to hear of these proposed changes as many commuters depend on the early morning service from Abergele to get them to work before 9am and it is shameful that their needs have not been taken into consideration in drawing up the new timetable.

“I have therefore written to Arriva Trains Wales highlighting the concerns raised with me and calling for a better service to Manchester which stops in Abergele. We must ensure that North Wales travellers have the rail service they need.”

 

[Philip]

Ok so any thoughts as to what will turn up on what on Manchester - North Wales from December?

We already know the 09:50 Holyhead and 16:50 Llandudno will be the LHCS. Is the current 08:50 Holyhead/Llandudno portion train likely to remain the same in the new TT? Which services are likely to remain a 3-car 175 and which ones will see two 175/0s doubled up to make a 4-car service?

The diagram which starts off as the 05:10 Cardiff to Llandudno then works Llandudno to Manchester runs before working the 17:50 Piccadilly to Holyhead will surely remain a 3-car 175, because currently there aren't any 2-car 175s booked in Cardiff depot overnight.

 

[berneyarms]

If constituents complain to AMs/MPs etc about losing a direct service, then it is up to their elected representatives to support them.has for a West Midlands MEP thats interesting.

I would argue that an MEP's job is to represent their constituents on the European Parliament on issues that arise at a European level.

You can't seriously be suggesting that the change of the Wrexham to Shrewsbury train times is of European significance and is something that the EU would be remotely interested in?

I'm sorry but this sounds like nothing more than someone trying to pander to his/her electorate and win votes. It summarises all that's wrong with politics today.

 

[merlodlliw]

I would argue that an MEP's job is to represent their constituents on the European Parliament on issues that arise at a European level.

You can't seriously be suggesting that the change of the Wrexham to Shrewsbury train times is of European significance and is something that the EU would be remotely interested in?

I'm sorry but this sounds like nothing more than someone trying to pander to his/her electorate and win votes. It summarises all that's wrong with politics today.

I also find it strange, I am aware Oswestry Town Council and similar at Gobowen have alerted local West Midlands politicians to the proposed axing of the train,so I presume thats where the MEP picked it up, I suppose it could be argued West Midlands is in Europe and ATWs owners are German hence some kind of Euro connection Gobowen sees large numbers board this train being a big catchment area.
SCRUA have a committee meeting this evening to discuss further strategy on saving the service after ATW denied axing the 0634 direct Llandudno/Manchester train in July, then produced the consultative timetable less than a month later showing the service would be axed, similar mutterings from ATW about the ex Wrexham 0747 puts everyone on guard.
Its no use ATW blaming Welsh Government(letter from ATW) finance Director, ATW should have told the WG Minister they don't have enough trains to run an hourly service on the Cambrian without axing other well used services.

 

[krus_aragon]

Its no use ATW blaming Welsh Government(letter from ATW) finance Director, ATW should have told the WG Minister they don't have enough trains to run an hourly service on the Cambrian without axing other well used services.

Hadn't they (ATW) spent the past few years saying there was no rolling stock available?

 

[merlodlliw]

Hadn't they (ATW) spent the past few years saying there was no rolling stock available?

Yes have been saying no stock available, now if the train they are proposing axing was a middle of the day service,perhaps a middle ground could be found,but to axe a very well used morning commuter service Wrexham to Birmingham is another matter,so ATW must expect a backlash. If the train is axed it will be third direct North Wales to Birmingham service lost, two are due for axing in December 2014 from Holyhead.

 

[Mark62]

Yet another handout to the private sector from taxpayers. I wonder if all receipts received from these publicly funded services will be handed back to the taxpayer or go straight into the shareholders pocket. I think rail privatization is simply a license to print money. But that was the intention all along.
Its a pity the government didnt step into fund extra trains from Whitby when North Yorkshire County Council refused to do so recently

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yet another handout to the private sector from taxpayers. I wonder if all receipts received from these publicly funded services will be handed back to the taxpayer or go straight into the shareholders pocket. I think rail privatization is simply a license to print money. But that was the intention all along.

You seem to have overlooked the fact that one of the extra ATW trains (the new loco-hauled train) has been donated by DB as a "change of control fee" for their takeover of Arriva in 2010.
It's not just a one-way street.
DB has also funded losses over the franchise period at Chiltern and XC (they are back in the black now).

 

[merlodlliw]

You seem to have overlooked the fact that one of the extra ATW trains (the new loco-hauled train) has been donated by DB as a "change of control fee" for their takeover of Arriva in 2010.
It's not just a one-way street.
DB has also funded losses over the franchise period at Chiltern and XC (they are back in the black now).

Very true, thats why I started the thread, only pity is the Loco Hauled starts at Chester and not Llandudno on its first run into Manchester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Some interesting factors arriving from the public, I realise this is not fares thread, However to get into Manchester Piccadilly at 0849 departing from Flint on VT trains at 0712 its £15/50 return off peak via crewe, On the ATW service to Piccadilly via Warrington its £21/60 off peak on the 0721, both trains arrive within a minute of each other at Piccadilly.
Many commuters have cottoned on now after the publicity of the axing of the direct Llandudno 0634 to Manchester from December.
I am told ATW wont accept these tickets, so return departure is limited to the 1655 VT,or wait an hour for the next.But it saves £30 on a weeks travel to work.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Some interesting factors arriving from the public, I realise this is not fares thread, However to get into Manchester Piccadilly at 0849 departing from Flint on VT trains at 0712 its £15/50 return off peak via crewe, On the ATW service to Piccadilly via Warrington its £21/60 off peak on the 0721, both trains arrive within a minute of each other at Piccadilly.
Many commuters have cottoned on now after the publicity of the axing of the direct Llandudno 0634 to Manchester from December.
I am told ATW wont accept these tickets, so return departure is limited to the 1655 VT,or wait an hour for the next.But it saves £30 on a weeks travel to work.

Isn't that precisely what privatisation - and competition - supposedly is all about? ATW can always reduce their fares to match those of Virgin!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Strangely, there are no similar VT-only fares from Chester/North Wales to Birmingham, despite the faster time via Stafford connecting with Scotland services at Crewe.
People tend to forget that VT provides significant peak capacity on the coast, on top of ATW's standard pattern timetable.
Who knows, coordination of schedules might free up ATW stock for elsewhere.

 

[bigbadhenry]

Arriva Trains Wales agrees to continue to run early morning Abergele to Manchester train after Clwyd West AM concern over poss scrapping.

Daily Post Conwy

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Isn't that precisely what privatisation - and competition - supposedly is all about? ATW can always reduce their fares to match those of Virgin!

Is it very rare to read of other TOC's reducing their prices to the price levels charged by Virgin Trains....or am I taking the example of the exorbitant fares charged by Virgin Trains on some Manchester to London services as their benchmark ?

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Is it very rare to read of other TOC's reducing their prices to the price levels charged by Virgin Trains....or am I taking the example of the exorbitant fares charged by Virgin Trains on some Manchester to London services as their benchmark ?

I would assume that it is very rare! Virgin do offer a cheap alternative to Manchester, but not, as LNW-GW Joint says, to Birmingham, although there are some cheap advances with Virgin and London Midland, but the slower Arriva trains are cheaper. However, an example of cheap fares are those from Birmingham to London, where Virgin, Chiltern and London Midland are in competition, no real compettition for Virgin from Manchester, is there?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Strangely, there are no similar VT-only fares from Chester/North Wales to Birmingham, despite the faster time via Stafford connecting with Scotland services at Crewe.
People tend to forget that VT provides significant peak capacity on the coast, on top of ATW's standard pattern timetable.
Who knows, coordination of schedules might free up ATW stock for elsewhere.

Having two operaraptors in a non prioritised setting leads to inefficiency, indeed if VT were on the graph first and then ATW filled in around them a lot of the issues of these threads wouldn't arise.

 

[SprinterMan]

Arriva Trains Wales agrees to continue to run early morning Abergele to Manchester train after Clwyd West AM concern over poss scrapping.

Daily Post Conwy

Presumably 1H81 will pick up an Abergele call then?

Adam

 

[merlodlliw]

Arriva Trains Wales agrees to continue to run early morning Abergele to Manchester train after Clwyd West AM concern over poss scrapping.

Daily Post Conwy

Heres the story from another source, http://www.rhyljournal.co.uk/news/1...ice-from-abergele-to-manchester-is-saved.aspx

Excellent outcome. It does assist to involve Politicians and make them aware.

 

[nw1]

Having two operaraptors in a non prioritised setting leads to inefficiency, indeed if VT were on the graph first and then ATW filled in around them a lot of the issues of these threads wouldn't arise.

I find it bizarre that it should be cheaper to travel via Crewe to Manchester on a roundabout route involving a change, than a direct train via Warrington. But then logic never enters into the mumbo-jumbo that is free-market economics anyway.

In the absence of the ideal of complete nationalisation (which seems to be politically incorrect nowadays), we should really go back to Big Four style regional companies - or perhaps even Big Three, and combine "LMS" and "LNER" as these days there's a lot of cross-Pennine traffic. Actually make that Big Four, as it makes sense for Scotland to look after their own affairs as they're largely self-contained and have their own political system. Northern, Western, Southern and Scottish. Nice and simple. That would increase the amount of integration on lines like this and facilitate integrated timetables. Cross-Country would be the only difficulty but given they're probably centred on the old London Midland network they could be part of the "Northern" company.