The North Transpennine Core: a quart in a pint pot?

[BurtonM]

Is it possible for through trains from Guide Bridge and Ashton to arrive Stalybridge almost simultaneously since 2012 alterations? Are platforms signalled for reversible working? If so then if the stopper arrives first, it could leave following the non stop Newcastle fast service on a yellow 2-3 minutes afterwards to reach Huddersfield before the following semi fast which would be non-stop to Huddersfield.

Or something similar

I'm fairly sure this is possible.
1&2 go towards Guide Bridge. 5 goes towards Ashton, 4 towards Hud and 3 is bi-directional and can go to all of them.

Not sure about track layouts but two trains can probably arrive in succession, (can also probably be done towards Manchester with 1 and 5, I have fuzzy memories of it happening). If the service from Piccadilly was put into 3, and the one from Victoria in 4, something could be done.

There is a freighter (landfill train?) that often sits about in P3 on certain days though (at about 11am), so that may need accounting for.

 

[deltic08]

I'm fairly sure this is possible.
1&2 go towards Guide Bridge. 5 goes towards Ashton, 4 towards Hud and 3 is bi-directional and can go to all of them.

Not sure about track layouts but two trains can probably arrive in succession, (can also probably be done towards Manchester with 1 and 5, I have fuzzy memories of it happening). If the service from Piccadilly was put into 3, and the one from Victoria in 4, something could be done.

There is a freighter (landfill train?) that often sits about in P3 on certain days though (at about 11am), so that may need accounting for.

Many thanks. So a train from Picc could arrive in 3 and be ready to leave as soon as a non-stop from Vicc has passed through 4. Would it work with a stopper arriving in 4 from Vic and a non-stopper from Picc passing through on 3 at 50mph?

 

[BurtonM]

On the current timetable on a Sunday there are two trains in the Yorkshire direction in a five minute gap, but presently they both use P4. There's a tunnel just east of the station - that might affect how long the stopper would have to wait.
Just Googled the track layout:

Yes, what you're saying would work AFAIK.
If it wasn't for the bridge at the eastern end of the station you could probably put a single bidirectional through line down the middle of P3 and P4.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Firstly Ripon is a City and not a town

Oh dear sorry for the upset.

and is NOT within the golden triangle.

My post didn't say it was, it mentioned the Golden Triangle in addition to Ripon.

Out of 127 submissions, reinstating the railway line to Ripon was one of a handful published.

Where - provide a link and I'll believe you. In any case Select Committees routinely publish most submissions made to them, it does not mean that they consider the submission relevant to them, it does not mean they have considered the submission as evidence as part of their report and it certainly does not mean that they support the submitted document. Submitting irrelevant reports to Commons Select Committees is a well known way for activists to gain publicity.

Ripon is the hub for the Dales and a railhead would be very useful.

So now Ripon is a city and a hub, no wonder when investigating transport in isolated communities the committee ignored the report.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Big church indeed........You are referring to the iconic Ripon Cathedral with has seen countless years of service to the community. Perhaps it will be good to ponder upon the question of how many cathedral cities are now without a railway station in their settlement.

Oh dear sorry for the upset.
...
So now Ripon is a city and a hub, no wonder when investigating transport in isolated communities the committee ignored the report.

Am I right in thinking that the UK is in the minority in having a formal distinction between 'town' and 'city', especially along such bizarre historic criteria?

Ripon is a large village in all but name. If the line through it still existed there might be a good case for a station, but surely not enough people live or visit there to justify rebuilding a line of such length with (as far as I'm aware) no other significant centres of population en-route.
Paul, you often cite the 'Witch Way' bus service as significant competition for the yet-to-start Todmorden Curve service: Any Ripon-Leeds service would have similar competition from the Harrogate and District (also Transdev, coincidentally!) 36 service. The key differences being that Burnley is much bigger, and needed only a short (though admittedly expensive) length of track (plus some signals... and eventually trains!) to get a rail link to the regional 'metropolis'!

Back on topic (ish!) I was at Stalybridge yesterday in the evening peak, and I observed for the first time the effect of the 5th TPE service on the other side of the pennines. It has to be said that the issues with delays and conflicts between express and local services is as bad if not worse than East of HUD. Glad I didn't NEED to catch the through Northern service to Leeds from there, as it was formed of 2x142- one being an ex-Oldham loop unit (bus seats & no extra luggage racks) and the other being a MiseryTravel example!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
An update from today, the 1713 from Huddersfield (1641 Piccadilly-Selby) was running over 30 late on arrival, due to a train fault according to the PAS). I boarded and took a seat at the rear of the front unit (of 3x170), only for the announcement that the Dewsbury call had been pulled. I and many others who had just boarded, along with several who'd been on already, got off, and platform 8 was by now pretty crowded. The also delayed, but not as much, Scarborough was next on the PIS so I can only assume that the Selby had been held at Piccadilly or Stalybridge allowing 2 of the 'true' express services to pass. When it arrived it was a single 185, already pretty busy even after HUD passengers had left. Think I did right to plump for the 2x142 stopper on P4!

Obviously a 'train fault' can happen anywhere and can't really be predicted, but trains on the line are pretty busy even when things run smoothly- and it appears even that is a rarity!

 

[deltic08]

Am I right in thinking that the UK is in the minority in having a formal distinction between 'town' and 'city', especially along such bizarre historic criteria?

Ripon is a large village in all but name. If the line through it still existed there might be a good case for a station, but surely not enough people live or visit there to justify rebuilding a line of such length with (as far as I'm aware) no other significant centres of population en-route.
Paul, you often cite the 'Witch Way' bus service as significant competition for the yet-to-start Todmorden Curve service: Any Ripon-Leeds service would have similar competition from the Harrogate and District (also Transdev, coincidentally!) 36 service. The key differences being that Burnley is much bigger, and needed only a short (though admittedly expensive) length of track (plus some signals... and eventually trains!) to get a rail link to the regional 'metropolis'!

Back on topic (ish!) I was at Stalybridge yesterday in the evening peak, and I observed for the first time the effect of the 5th TPE service on the other side of the pennines. It has to be said that the issues with delays and conflicts between express and local services is as bad if not worse than East of HUD. Glad I didn't NEED to catch the through Northern service to Leeds from there, as it was formed of 2x142- one being an ex-Oldham loop unit (bus seats & no extra luggage racks) and the other being a MiseryTravel example!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
An update from today, the 1713 from Huddersfield (1641 Piccadilly-Selby) was running over 30 late on arrival, due to a train fault according to the PAS). I boarded and took a seat at the rear of the front unit (of 3x170), only for the announcement that the Dewsbury call had been pulled. I and many others who had just boarded, along with several who'd been on already, got off, and platform 8 was by now pretty crowded. The also delayed, but not as much, Scarborough was next on the PIS so I can only assume that the Selby had been held at Piccadilly or Stalybridge allowing 2 of the 'true' express services to pass. When it arrived it was a single 185, already pretty busy even after HUD passengers had left. Think I did right to plump for the 2x142 stopper on P4!

Obviously a 'train fault' can happen anywhere and can't really be predicted, but trains on the line are pretty busy even when things run smoothly- and it appears even that is a rarity!

Sorry but I have to correct you. Despite your dig about Ripon it is a city with a population of 18,000. The Leeds City Region LDF proposes additional house building to raise population to 26,000 by 2025. Part of the Cathedral dates back to 672AD and is older than any other Cathedral in the UK although Canterbury claims to be four years older.

According to a study in 2004, an estimated 0.73m passengers per annum would use a reopened station in Ripon similar to actual figures of 0.72m passengers per annum using Skipton in 2005. Latest footfall figure for Skipton is 0.95m. It is reasonable to assume a similar figure for Ripon in 2012/13 as both are market towns of similar size and distance from Leeds. Ripon annual visitor figure for 2012 is 1.2m, a proportion of which would travel by rail lifting the figure closer to one million per annum which is nearly the figure to give the required BCR for reinstatement. ATOC has quoted a BCR of 4.61 which is far higher than HS2, Edinburgh-Borders or parts of East-West rail.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Sorry but I have to correct you. Despite your dig about Ripon it is a city with a population of 18,000. The Leeds City Region LDF proposes additional house building to raise population to 26,000 by 2025. Part of the Cathedral dates back to 672AD and is older than any other Cathedral in the UK although Canterbury claims to be four years older.

I'm apologise to 61653 HTAFC for continuing this widely off topic discussion in his thread but he is absolutely correct that only the UK has such a bizzare sytem where cities are declared by royal decree. Under this ludicrous system Ripon is a city whereas that capital of ours down south with a population of 8million isn't (are we the only country in the world not to have a capital city?)

Queen Victoria obviously thought so too because when Ripon declared itself a city on establishment of its large church as a cathedral, she steadfastly refused to ratify it, presumably sitting there muttering "We are not amused" and considering locking up the inhabitants of Ripon in the Tower for their treasonous behaviour. It took Parliament 30 years to overrule her.

According to a study in 2004, an estimated 0.73m passengers per annum would use a reopened station in Ripon similar to actual figures of 0.72m passengers per annum using Skipton in 2005. Latest footfall figure for Skipton is 0.95m. It is reasonable to assume a similar figure for Ripon in 2012/13 as both are market towns of similar size and distance from Leeds. Ripon annual visitor figure for 2012 is 1.2m, a proportion of which would travel by rail lifting the figure closer to one million per annum which is nearly the figure to give the required BCR for reinstatement. ATOC has quoted a BCR of 4.61 which is far higher than HS2, Edinburgh-Borders or parts of East-West rail.

Fine. How about starting a new thread about it, not cluttering up a thread about the capacity of the lines through Huddersfield?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To be fair, I did contribute to the off topic diversion myself. Fair point, I may have underestimated the size of Ripon and its hinterland, but I maintain the point that due to its' relatively small size and isolated location, it is unlikely to be top of the list for any reinstatement. It also would do nothing to ease the congestion which prompted this thread.

IIRC someone suggested diverting all freight via Thornhill and Wakefield Kirkgate, though I was under the impression that this was already the case, with no freight routed via Dewsbury during the day if at all. No doubt if I'm mistaken someone will correct me...

Far from reopening Harrogate to Northallerton, if we're going to suggest outlandish solutions to congestion between Leeds and Manchester the route via Heckmondwike to Heaton Lodge would be the more obvious one, along with the Micklehurst loop line on the other side of the pennines... Sadly though both routes are lost to history.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Far from reopening Harrogate to Northallerton, if we're going to suggest outlandish solutions to congestion between Leeds and Manchester the route via Heckmondwike to Heaton Lodge would be the more obvious one, along with the Micklehurst loop line on the other side of the pennines... Sadly though both routes are lost to history.

I must have explained the problems of reopening the Micklehurst loop line on a number of threads on this website since 2011 and nothing in the interim period has yet convinced me to the otherwise.

 

[deltic08]

To be fair, I did contribute to the off topic diversion myself. Fair point, I may have underestimated the size of Ripon and its hinterland, but I maintain the point that due to its' relatively small size and isolated location, it is unlikely to be top of the list for any reinstatement. It also would do nothing to ease the congestion which prompted this thread.

IIRC someone suggested diverting all freight via Thornhill and Wakefield Kirkgate, though I was under the impression that this was already the case, with no freight routed via Dewsbury during the day if at all. No doubt if I'm mistaken someone will correct me...

Far from reopening Harrogate to Northallerton, if we're going to suggest outlandish solutions to congestion between Leeds and Manchester the route via Heckmondwike to Heaton Lodge would be the more obvious one, along with the Micklehurst loop line on the other side of the pennines... Sadly though both routes are lost to history.

No, it isn't top. It is fourth in ATOCs list of communities to be connected behind Ashington (already has rails and platforms), Lewis-Uckfield and another I can't think of at the moment.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I must have explained the problems of reopening the Micklehurst loop line on a number of threads on this website since 2011 and nothing in the interim period has yet convinced me to the otherwise.

Indeed you have, and the final sentence of the paragraph you quoted shows that we are in agreement on this matter! Though if it were possible, it would be a better option for reinstating the four-tracking of the route in part, than the sections where the four tracks shared the same alignment - for the reason that linespeeds on the existing alignment would not be compromised.

Prior to electrification being announced, NR had proposed re-laying track through the two disused bores of Standedge tunnel, which might be a better option to allow overtaking of slower services. Having seen the problems of under-capacity along the route, it is frustrating that it appears to be an "either-or" situation. The single bores might not be suitable for OHLE anyway though I suppose...