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First West of England (Bristol, Bath & The West)

freetoview33

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I think First have gone about this totally the wrong way! My understanding is the evening and Sunday services are council funded. But surely they could of axed the Sunday service first of all. And maybe the early 5:05 Southmead - Centre service. Then maybe even reduce the daytime frequency from 30mins - 45mins. Or even tried to improve the service to attract more people. I think the reason it is being withdrawn truth be told is because of the new 72 service and the lack of buses as axing the 20 saves 3 buses and the fact those buses will be more profitable on the 72 compared to the 20.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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The answers that you're looking for might be in the Paul Matthews Route One article. Yes, they want to deploy resources on the most lucrative areas but perhaps its more to do with driver resource than the actual buses? Similarly, the splitting of the route might reflect a blend of unreliability that is out of First's control (was there much cross city traffic - not as if the route serves major traffic objectives such as a hospital or shopping centre?). Might also be a disparity between the two halves of the route in terms of their needs (frequency/rolling stock).

My own observations and experience indicate a not overly well used service and, if it were, why hasn't Wessex come in and registered it? Or Abus off peak akin to the 52? Probably because many passengers are simply being abstracted from other services. The other issue is that many passengers may be ENTCS (that was my observation) and that the numbers don't stack up.

It isn't up to First to subsidise dead ducks. Another parallel is the Bathampton 4 that also largely duplicates the 265. That's not to say that there aren't genuine welfare considerations for some people; clearly there are and the local authorities should (despite no statutory responsibility) address this. However, BaNES have sorted it in Bath whilst BCC haven't sorted the 20. I also have sympathy for First in that they've substantially increased their services in Bristol, and have also taken on a number of services commercially, thus helping local authorities (albeit mainly BaNES and SGC) to protect other facilities.

Why not chop the evening and Sunday 20, and then use the funds to support an hourly off peak service built around schools like the 52? However, with next years budget cuts, expect BCC to stop funding a number of routes
 
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Class 33

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I think First have gone about this totally the wrong way! My understanding is the evening and Sunday services are council funded. But surely they could of axed the Sunday service first of all. And maybe the early 5:05 Southmead - Centre service. Then maybe even reduce the daytime frequency from 30mins - 45mins. Or even tried to improve the service to attract more people. I think the reason it is being withdrawn truth be told is because of the new 72 service and the lack of buses as axing the 20 saves 3 buses and the fact those buses will be more profitable on the 72 compared to the 20.

You're right they have gone about this totally the wrong way. Just announcing the service is to be axed out of the blue with just barely 3 weeks notice!(though we on this thread knew it was being axed about a month or so before that, via that VOSA page about upcoming bus changes which the general public non-bus service fans don't use!). They should have consulted with users of this service way beforehand and looked into revising the service(including possibly extending the service so that it is more profitable), introducing new services which covers sections of the 20 route, or ammending existing services to cover sections of the 20 route.

Reducing the off-peak daytime service to every 45 minutes or even hourly would be more acceptable than no service atall!

I note on First Bristol's Twitter page the other day, someone commenting that they have an annual travel card and as the 20 which they use will be axed can they get a refund on their travel card.

I remember just a few years or so back seeing the 20 arriving on the Centre about 4pm-ish weekdays. Double deckers, and packed with a lot of school kids!

The planned protest about the axing of this service is to be held on Saturday at 12:45pm at Golden Hill Phoenix Grove bus stop. Whilst I will not be joining in with the protest, I may well have a walk past there to see how many people turn up. TV crews from BBC Points West and ITV News Westcountry could well be there. I think we'll see a fair bit more about the axing of the 20 in the media, as people who currently use it are absolutely seething mad that it's being axed with no decent alternative services to use.

Current number of signatures on the Save The 20 petitions stands at 189.

Whilst the Save the 15 petition currently has only 26 signatures! http://saveour15bus.bristolpetitions.com
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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You're right they have gone about this totally the wrong way. Just announcing the service is to be axed out of the blue with just barely 3 weeks notice!(though we on this thread knew it was being axed about a month or so before that, via that VOSA page about upcoming bus changes which the general public non-bus service fans don't use!). They should have consulted with users of this service way beforehand and looked into revising the service(including possibly extending the service so that it is more profitable), introducing new services which covers sections of the 20 route, or ammending existing services to cover sections of the 20 route.

Reducing the off-peak daytime service to every 45 minutes or even hourly would be more acceptable than no service atall!

I think you're missing the point. The fact is that the 20 isn't profitable. Drop the frequency will naturally cut costs but will that also depress ridership further?

Interesting that you believe that First handled it incorrectly? They've cut fares and whilst ridership across the city has improved, it hasn't been enough to improve the position on the 20. The council have had 6 weeks notice (at least) and they've not done anything about it. If First had given 6 weeks notice to the general public, then they would've had many more weeks of protests with an increasing pressure to continue to operate an unsustainable service. It's news management! ;)

Once again, ask yourself a) why isn't anyone else such as Abus or Wessex coming in to take up the service and b) why isn't the council doing anything about saving what is apparently a crucial link.
 

freetoview33

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It's out of Abus area and Wessex don't seem to like commercial work. If only one service was going (15 or 20) then okay it's just both! Last year Wellington Hill West had 14 buses per hour (7 each way) now it will be 0 no one can deny that isn't a massive cut! I still think the best thing to do would be to reroute the 501 502 along there to at least maintain some kind of link!
 

ValleyLines142

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There must be something that can be done to serve the areas where the 20 was the ONLY bus service operating there. Yes the 2 and the 76 also serve Southmead but if this can pick up areas the 20 served then it may work.
 

baza585

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There must be something that can be done to serve the areas where the 20 was the ONLY bus service operating there. Yes the 2 and the 76 also serve Southmead but if this can pick up areas the 20 served then it may work.

Both the 2 and 76 are frequent services running every 10 minutes. It is almost certainly not viable to divert either of them to cover parts of the 20; that would be overkill.

The 20 is only every 30 minutes and being withdrawn for a reason, because it is almost certainly not commercial. But there is something that can be done; the council can put its hand in its pocket and subsidise a tendered service. That is how the UK deregulated environment works. Councils are able to support services where there is a social need; clearly BCC has decided there isn't a need in this case.

BCC have had ample notice of the withdrawal of the 20; they have done nothing and hoped that public pressure will force First to reinstate it at no cost to the council. I doubt that will happen and I hope it doesn't. Why should fares rise elsewhere to cover the costs of a non-commercial route in Bristol that the local council won't support. If that's not what people want, they should cast their vote accordingly. Its no good blaming First.

As others have said, if there was any sniff of a viable route there, others would have registered it. They haven't. Enough said.
 

Class 33

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Well I got my last journey on the 20 today before the service WILL be axed on Saturday. I got the 1530 Centre-Southmead service as far as Wellington Hill West. People boarded the bus at Lewins Mead, BRI Marlborough Street, Horfield Road, Montague Place, Cotham Road, Bishop Road, Kellaway Avenue, and the top of Wellington Hill West where I departed. Of the people leaving the bus, they departed at Bishop Road, Kellaway Avenue, and Wellington Hill West top. Roughly 20 people onboard this 1530 service as far as Wellington Hill West top. I expect the 1600, 1630, 1700, and 1730 services would easily have been somewhat busier. During the journey I overheard other people saying that it's ridiculous the 20 is being axed and the extra time, hassle, and inconvenience this will now cause from next week when the service is no longer running.

The number of signatures on the Save the 20 petition will imminently top 200 signatures. That's not too bad atall really for just one specific bus service. With a bit of luck it will top over 300 signatures. And I really hope something can be done to solve this soon. Bristol will be the European Green Capital in 2015? Paaah! You have got be kidding!

There's no way it would be possible to divert the 2 and/or 76 to cover parts of the 20 route. However a possible part solution to solve the broken Wellington Hill West-Westbury link could be divert the 18 from Southmead Hospital via Dorian Road, Kellaway Avenue, and Wellington Hill West. Though this would then mean the stretch of Southmead Road would then lose it's link to Easfield Road, Westbury, etc.

I really hope something is done about it soon. To expect the eldery, disabled, etc to walk up to about 40 minutes or more to use alternative services is just absurd and unacceptable!

Put your thinking caps on. What would your solution be to solve the problem of the 20 being axed?
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Well I got my last journey on the 20 today before the service WILL be axed on Saturday. I got the 1530 Centre-Southmead service as far as Wellington Hill West. People boarded the bus at Lewins Mead, BRI Marlborough Street, Horfield Road, Montague Place, Cotham Road, Bishop Road, Kellaway Avenue, and the top of Wellington Hill West where I departed. Of the people leaving the bus, they departed at Bishop Road, Kellaway Avenue, and Wellington Hill West top. Roughly 20 people onboard this 1530 service as far as Wellington Hill West top. I expect the 1600, 1630, 1700, and 1730 services would easily have been somewhat busier. During the journey I overheard other people saying that it's ridiculous the 20 is being axed and the extra time, hassle, and inconvenience this will now cause from next week when the service is no longer running.

The number of signatures on the Save the 20 petition will imminently top 200 signatures. That's not too bad atall really for just one specific bus service. With a bit of luck it will top over 300 signatures. And I really hope something can be done to solve this soon. Bristol will be the European Green Capital in 2015? Paaah! You have got be kidding!

There's no way it would be possible to divert the 2 and/or 76 to cover parts of the 20 route. However a possible part solution to solve the broken Wellington Hill West-Westbury link could be divert the 18 from Southmead Hospital via Dorian Road, Kellaway Avenue, and Wellington Hill West. Though this would then mean the stretch of Southmead Road would then lose it's link to Easfield Road, Westbury, etc.

I really hope something is done about it soon. To expect the eldery, disabled, etc to walk up to about 40 minutes or more to use alternative services is just absurd and unacceptable!

Put your thinking caps on. What would your solution be to solve the problem of the 20 being axed?

So if each service has got 20 or more people on, why is First cutting it and, more importantly, why isn't anyone rushing in for this apparent commercial open goal?

A replacement? Tender a one car service from Centre to Westbury off peak based around schools. Use either a commercial operator such as Abus (don't think it's massively out of their area) or use a welfare vehicle. Fund by axing Eve/Sun service

It's for BCC to sort!!!
 
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vicbury

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I'm pleased to announce that 44919 seems to have had some work carried out on its engine and suspension and is now far more comfortable to travel on!
 

swifty

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Some obs from today that might be of interest, the 224 this morning was an X2/3 Streetlite, 66734 was out on service freshly repainted minus logos. There were also a few Darts out and about on peak services this evening, namely the 2 & 44, ironically the latter was fully loaded whilst an empty Gemini was following also on the 44! The newly branded WessexStar Centros were also out and about today as well.

It also appears that 44521 has returned following work at ADL.

37662 has also gained X74 advertising to the front, https://flic.kr/p/oXmQ2v.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So if each service has got 20 or more people on, why is First cutting it and, more importantly, why isn't anyone rushing in for this apparent commercial open goal?

A replacement? Tender a one car service from Centre to Westbury off peak based around schools. Use either a commercial operator such as Abus (don't think it's massively out of their area) or use a welfare vehicle. Fund by axing Eve/Sun service

It's for BCC to sort!!!

Exactly, First have followed the correct procedure to de-register the service and once the last service has run then that's that I'm afraid. It's not as if First can suddenly change their mind and carry on running it ( not that they'd want to bother!). The easiest thing to do is to re-route existing tendered services e.g 501/2, or as GrandWazoo says try something like a 510 style service using Sprinters.
 
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vicbury

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It also appears that 44521 has returned following work at ADL.

Wow, I'm surprised they got it repaired, I guess most of the damage wasn't structural then? Found a photo of it in Flickr:

14871174270_822e5b15d9_b.jpg


Source

The 14 in Bath seems to have gone from exclusively Enviro 200s to whatever will fit again. Both Hampshire Darts have been on it lately, as has the Dart with East Lancs bodywork, the 02-reg B7s, 05-reg Darts (both short and normal), 09-reg Enviro 200s, Streetlites, and ALX400 B7TLs! Oh and Solos.
 
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Private Baxter

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Wow, I'm surprised they got it repaired, I guess most of the damage wasn't structural then? Found a photo of it in Flickr:

14871174270_822e5b15d9_b.jpg


Source

The 14 in Bath seems to have gone from exclusively Enviro 200s to whatever will fit again. Both Hampshire Darts have been on it lately, as has the Dart with East Lancs bodywork, the 02-reg B7s, 05-reg Darts (both short and normal), 09-reg Enviro 200s, Streetlites, and ALX400 B7TLs! Oh and Solos.

Ah brilliant news, I was wondering if and when we would see that back. It's good news all round as I think they really need an extra bus, especially with uni term starting in a few weeks. What's ADL btw?

I agree the 14 is a bit of an odd one, in which supposedly the 09s work, and indeed they are the favourites for it, but all the random odd buses seem to work it alongside, and like you say, other bits and pieces. I don't mind so much about other routes but I think the 14 is quite an important route for Bath and could do with more attention. I actually think that had Bath recieved all fifteen streetlites as originally planned, the 14 might have been a good route for them.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Ah brilliant news, I was wondering if and when we would see that back. It's good news all round as I think they really need an extra bus, especially with uni term starting in a few weeks. What's ADL btw?

I agree the 14 is a bit of an odd one, in which supposedly the 09s work, and indeed they are the favourites for it, but all the random odd buses seem to work it alongside, and like you say, other bits and pieces. I don't mind so much about other routes but I think the 14 is quite an important route for Bath and could do with more attention. I actually think that had Bath recieved all fifteen streetlites as originally planned, the 14 might have been a good route for them.

ADL = Alexander Dennis Ltd

I wondered if the 15 BH Streetlites were originally destined for 5 & 178/379 but when those ones were diverted to MH, they put the remainder on the 5 and then reconsidered?
 

Colly405

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Put your thinking caps on. What would your solution be to solve the problem of the 20 being axed?
OK, so let's look at the route in bits.

Centre - Zetland Rd.
Needed for hospital visits, but with the expansion of Southmead Hospital, over time there is likely to be more demand from the south (e.g. for St Michael's) than the north of the city. So extend a service from South Bristol that terminates in town to Zetland Rd - there used to be a service which terminated there from the Cotham direction a few years ago. Perhaps the 52? 57? Selected journeys on the 50, 51, 90?

Zetland Rd - Kellaway Ave
Covered in parts by the 72 and 505, but the current stops on Clare Ave, Kings Dr and Bishop Rd have no service. Cranbrook Road loses its service to Westbury, but gains one to Whiteladies Rd and Gloucester Rd.
Solution is either to leave Clare/Bishop/Kings unserved, as they were recently when the 20 was re-routed away from them for a while, or as a last resort to reroute the 505 via Coldharbour Rd, Linden Rd, Cranbrook Rd, Clare Ave, Kings Dr, Bishop Rd, Kellaway Ave.

Wellington Hill West
Two options.
EITHER (similar to existing suggestions) reroute the hourly 502 via Wellington hill West, Kellaway Ave, Gloucester Rd, Dorian Rd into the hospital as a 503, but keep the 501 and alternate Sunday 502's unchanged.
OR reroute the 502 at the times as above via Wellington Hill West, Bishopthorpe Rd, Dorian Rd into the hospital as a 503. With this option also rerouting the 505 via Kellaway Ave, Wellington Hill West, Bishopthorpe Rd, Dorian Rd into the hospital.
Both these options give the bottom of WHW a service to Westbury (503) and keep a service along Southmead Rd (18, 501, and hourly Sunday 502). The first option gives the top of WHW a service to Westbury, whilst the second option gives more patronage for the 505 which currently runs non-stop from Tesco Golden Hill to the hospital with just one stop in the opposite direction.

Westbury - Charlton Rd
Currently served only Mon-Sat daytime by the 20.
Extend the 508 so that instead of terminating at Charlton Rd it continues back along Charlton Rd, Pen Park Rd, Monks Park Ave, Southmead Hospital, Southmead Rd, Doncaster Rd, left onto Greystoke Ave and in to Westbury. So it becomes a P-shaped route. Would need intelligent destination blind setting! This gives the bottom of Pen Park Rd a service back, gives some of Southmead and all of Charlton Rd a service directly in to the hospital (not just to the gates), and retains the links to Westbury for Southmead and Charlton Rd.
As part of this change also extend the 505 beyond the Hospital via Pen Park Rd and Greystoke Ave to terminate at Arnside shops. This gives the rest of Southmead a service to the Hospital, and also reduces the pressure on the Hospital bus stop with buses on layover.

There is an extra PVR with the above, mainly on the Wessex 505/508 and the 52 (or similar), but by better timing of the 501/502/(503) to remove some of the massive amount of slack between Parkway and Southmead Hospital, this can be partly offset.
 

ValleyLines142

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OK, so let's look at the route in bits.

Centre - Zetland Rd.
Needed for hospital visits, but with the expansion of Southmead Hospital, over time there is likely to be more demand from the south (e.g. for St Michael's) than the north of the city. So extend a service from South Bristol that terminates in town to Zetland Rd - there used to be a service which terminated there from the Cotham direction a few years ago. Perhaps the 52? 57? Selected journeys on the 50, 51, 90?

Zetland Rd - Kellaway Ave
Covered in parts by the 72 and 505, but the current stops on Clare Ave, Kings Dr and Bishop Rd have no service. Cranbrook Road loses its service to Westbury, but gains one to Whiteladies Rd and Gloucester Rd.
Solution is either to leave Clare/Bishop/Kings unserved, as they were recently when the 20 was re-routed away from them for a while, or as a last resort to reroute the 505 via Coldharbour Rd, Linden Rd, Cranbrook Rd, Clare Ave, Kings Dr, Bishop Rd, Kellaway Ave.

Wellington Hill West
Two options.
EITHER (similar to existing suggestions) reroute the hourly 502 via Wellington hill West, Kellaway Ave, Gloucester Rd, Dorian Rd into the hospital as a 503, but keep the 501 and alternate Sunday 502's unchanged.
OR reroute the 502 at the times as above via Wellington Hill West, Bishopthorpe Rd, Dorian Rd into the hospital as a 503. With this option also rerouting the 505 via Kellaway Ave, Wellington Hill West, Bishopthorpe Rd, Dorian Rd into the hospital.
Both these options give the bottom of WHW a service to Westbury (503) and keep a service along Southmead Rd (18, 501, and hourly Sunday 502). The first option gives the top of WHW a service to Westbury, whilst the second option gives more patronage for the 505 which currently runs non-stop from Tesco Golden Hill to the hospital with just one stop in the opposite direction.

Westbury - Charlton Rd
Currently served only Mon-Sat daytime by the 20.
Extend the 508 so that instead of terminating at Charlton Rd it continues back along Charlton Rd, Pen Park Rd, Monks Park Ave, Southmead Hospital, Southmead Rd, Doncaster Rd, left onto Greystoke Ave and in to Westbury. So it becomes a P-shaped route. Would need intelligent destination blind setting! This gives the bottom of Pen Park Rd a service back, gives some of Southmead and all of Charlton Rd a service directly in to the hospital (not just to the gates), and retains the links to Westbury for Southmead and Charlton Rd.
As part of this change also extend the 505 beyond the Hospital via Pen Park Rd and Greystoke Ave to terminate at Arnside shops. This gives the rest of Southmead a service to the Hospital, and also reduces the pressure on the Hospital bus stop with buses on layover.

There is an extra PVR with the above, mainly on the Wessex 505/508 and the 52 (or similar), but by better timing of the 501/502/(503) to remove some of the massive amount of slack between Parkway and Southmead Hospital, this can be partly offset.

Sounds like an excellent idea.

I'm not suggesting to TOTALLY change the 2 and the 76, but to somehow incorporate them so that the elderly who face a 40 minute walk to bus stops don't miss out.

This could turn out like a Disney film; there has to be a happy ending somewhere!
 

freetoview33

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In honesty it might add one or two mins (At most it might not add any time at all, and I wouldn't be surprised that if peak it would actually be faster!) to journeys so PVR will be exactly the same as currently. Good question this really needs to be done! Southmead road wouldn't loose out as it would still be served by the 18.
 

DaveHarries

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I reckon that the reason more people don't use the 20 to go to the City Centre is the loop through Kingsdown. Those who can walk a bit of a distance are probably walking to stops with a more frequent and more direct service. Taking this into account, and bearing in mind that the HUBS (Hospital & University Bus Shuttle) goes from opposite the BRI up to St. Michael s, how about this:

- Revise route of Service 20 so that it operates direct from Cheltenham Road (The Arches) to Broadmead and then operates a loop to stop opposite the BRI. So from Broadmead in an anti-clockwise loop round to the BRI, through the Centre and back to Broadmead.

- I would also suggest dropping Southmead to Westbury which is already covered by the 508.

The result would be something like the attached and would have a PVR of something like 3. The section via. Bishops Road and Kings Drive to be maintained. I would also suggest using smaller vehicles (Solo M880?) except on the busiest trips.

Dave
 

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freetoview33

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http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/bri...ng/maps/bristol/Bristol_Ntwrk_Dgm_aug2014.pdf

This is brilliant, thee 76 is coloured red from Hengrove - town then blue from town to cribbs! Gold star to whoever checked that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also does anyone thing the 70/71 would make a very good 24hr service! (I know the 70 runs until 2/3am)

But going from U.W.E to temple meads providing a 24 hour service from Temple Meads- Centre/bus station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also apparently city fox say they have been asked by BCC to take over the 20, and Wessex to revive the 15. This is purely hearsay but I will believe it when I see it.
 
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ValleyLines142

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http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/bri...ng/maps/bristol/Bristol_Ntwrk_Dgm_aug2014.pdf

This is brilliant, thee 76 is coloured red from Hengrove - town then blue from town to cribbs! Gold star to whoever checked that.

I can't really see the reason for this, it is a through service from Hengrove to Cribbs Causeway! The 75 is all the same colour, so why is the 76 split-coloured? All of the other 'group' services in Bristol such as the 1/2, 6/7, 8/9, 40/40A/41, 42/43/44/45, 48/49, 50/51 and the 70/71/72 all retain the same colour.

Also does anyone thing the 70/71 would make a very good 24hr service! (I know the 70 runs until 2/3am)

But going from U.W.E to temple meads providing a 24 hour service from Temple Meads- Centre/bus station.

The first and last buses on the 70 from The Centre are currently 0556 and 0230 respectively (the last service from Temple Meads being at 2344), so that's nearly a 22 hour service, which I think is fine. I don't think there's the demand for a 24 hour service; I've been on a late night 70 once and on that occasion I reckon there couldn't have been more than six people on board. Also, the last train of the day arrives at Temple Meads at 0135, and the first one is at 0447, so there is no need for a 24 hour service (and in any case the Bristol Flyer runs 24 hourly, although I know it is a lot more expensive). There's also a 39 running into town from Temple Meads too at 0135.

I think Wessex Red have/are going to operate a 24 hour service, although with their reputation I can't see that happening! (they're bad enough in the day time, let alone at night!)
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I can't really see the reason for this, it is a through service from Hengrove to Cribbs Causeway! The 75 is all the same colour, so why is the 76 split-coloured? All of the other 'group' services in Bristol such as the 1/2, 6/7, 8/9, 40/40A/41, 42/43/44/45, 48/49, 50/51 and the 70/71/72 all retain the same colour.

I think you're missing what ftv33 is saying. It's a cock up so full marks (sarcastically) to the proof reader!
 

swifty

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Also apparently city fo say they have been asked by BCC to take over the 20, and Wessex to revive the 15. This is purely hearsay but I will believe it when I see it.

As far as I'm aware, they haven't actually got an ops license. Wishful thinking?
 
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Colly405

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- I would also suggest dropping Southmead to Westbury which is already covered by the 508.
But the 508 and the (former!) 20 take totally different routes through the Southmead area, and from observations in the Westbury area, was perhaps better used than the Westbury Park/Henleaze bit..

I took a trip on the 20 yesterday, mid-afternoon. I was the first one on, at the top of Greystoke. Three got on at Arnside shops. One got off at the bottom of Greystoke, two got off in Westbury leaving me as the only passenger to Kellaway Ave, where I got off...
 

matt_splat

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the 178 and 38 are interworked so a bus will do a 38 - bath to Bristol then 178 back to bath and the other way round this is on a sunday only
 

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