South London rail link to Heathrow?

[waterboo]

According to the London rail plan to 2050, in 2030 there will be a rail link on the SWML to heathrow. Given that crossrail and london underground already run into london, would it make sense for SW trains to follow suit, or serve other destinations from heathrow??

 

[Hornet]

The link to Staines has been mooted for years. Is there anything about the link from the GWML from the west, into T5 Station, which has also been talked about?

 

[Busaholic]

Decades ago there was a plan to extend from Woking, but whether it ever got beyond drawing lines on a map, I'm not sure.

 

[dysonsphere]

I remember seeing a drawing years ago one of the problems was level crossing as in too many and no real way to get rid of them without a huge spend.

 

[Stats]

As part of the review into airport capacity the Government announced a study for southern rail access to Heathrow last year. Network Rail's terms of reference for the study can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...cess-to-heathrow-terms-of-reference-for-study

The study will deliver to DfT an analysis of the market options by November 2014 and an engineering/options short list by June 2015.

 

[swt_passenger]

Decades ago there was a plan to extend from Woking, but whether it ever got beyond drawing lines on a map, I'm not sure.

Airtrack included trains via Woking, Byfleet curve, and a new Staines west curve, as well as from Waterloo. It got most of the way as far as a TWA Order application only a few years ago (3 or 4 maybe), but since it was cancelled all the official online info seems to have disappeared apart from the Wikipedia stuff here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathrow_Airtrack

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The link to Staines has been mooted for years. Is there anything about the link from the GWML from the west, into T5 Station, which has also been talked about?

Western Route Access to Heathrow (WRAtH) is a defined CP5 HLOS project supposed to start construction during 2017, with completion by 2021. It is project W005 in the current CP5 enhancement plans.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

According to the London rail plan to 2050, in 2030 there will be a rail link on the SWML to heathrow. Given that crossrail and london underground already run into london, would it make sense for SW trains to follow suit, or serve other destinations from heathrow??

A SWML link to Heathrow seems to me to make sense. There is a fairly vast area of SW and S London that is not served by any services that will interchange with either CrossRail or the Piccadilly line. That area includes pretty much everywhere served by trains from Waterloo, and quite a lot of the area served by trains from Victoria. In the absence of a Southern link to Heathrow, getting to Heathrow from any of these parts of London would require two changes of train, even after CR is built.

If a link from Heathrow to Waterloo existed, then that link would presumably serve Clapham Junction en route - and that would mean that you'll be able to get from almost anywhere in SW/S London to Heathrow by changing just once, at Clapham Junction. The same reasoning also applies to a lot of places in Surrey/Sussex/Hampshire, which are served by trains to Victoria or Waterloo via Clapham Junction. The number of people who'd benefit from that, and who might therefore be persuaded to use train rather than car to get to Heathrow, is quite large!

 

[Hornet]

Western Route Access to Heathrow (WRAtH) is a defined CP5 HLOS project supposed to start construction during 2017, with completion by 2021. It is project W005 in the current CP5 enhancement plans.

Thanks. Will make my Kilnamanagh to Burnham trip a bit easier!

 

[MarkyT]

It would be fairly easy to extend some Crossrail or Heathrow Express services through the airport to terminate at Staines once the western connection to the GWML (WRATH) has established a route into Terminal 5. From an additional junction just to the west of the airport the line could follow the route surveyed for the aborted Airtrack proposal. A Waterloo service could be routed via the Hounslow line to avoid the level crossing issues via Richmond, but that would clearly also lose the connectivity available at Richmond. With no other obvious turnback facility elsewhere in the airport complex, a Waterloo service would probably have to terminate at additional dead end platforms at T5, planned for Airtrack and with sufficient space safeguarded for them in the station box under the terminal.

 

[Hearadh]

One option not mentioned so far is via the West London Line from Clapham Jct,although I'm not sure whether a route exists from the SWML to WLL at Clapham Jct. Re-instatement of the West London Loop at North Pole together with some tweaking of the junctions at this point would be required.

An added bonus to this route would be that the Sussex lines could also use this route also a route into Waterloo and a service for the WLL stations.

 

[ExRes]

I recall that there was a plan knocking around years ago suggesting the possibility of a Gatwick to Heathrow service via Clapham Jct, WLL and joining the GW at Acton Mainline, I always thought it was a good idea but what services would have to be cut to find the pathways I've no idea

 

[JonathanH]

It would be fairly easy to extend some Crossrail or Heathrow Express services through the airport to terminate at Staines once the western connection to the GWML (WRATH) has established a route into Terminal 5. From an additional junction just to the west of the airport the line could follow the route surveyed for the aborted Airtrack proposal. A Waterloo service could be routed via the Hounslow line to avoid the level crossing issues via Richmond, but that would clearly also lose the connectivity available at Richmond. With no other obvious turnback facility elsewhere in the airport complex, a Waterloo service would probably have to terminate at additional dead end platforms at T5, planned for Airtrack and with sufficient space safeguarded for them in the station box under the terminal.

No path via Hounslow for a fast service and it misses out the important connections at Richmond. Level crossing issues via Richmond as you note.

Obvious answer would be detachment from existing Windsor and Weybridge services at Staines but Staines doesn't have a very good layout for that purpose and it would extend journey times.

 

[317663]

I recall that there was a plan knocking around years ago suggesting the possibility of a Gatwick to Heathrow service via Clapham Jct, WLL and joining the GW at Acton Mainline, I always thought it was a good idea but what services would have to be cut to find the pathways I've no idea

Exactly, trains would need to reverse or else a sharp (very sharp) curve would be needed.

 

[glbotu]

One option not mentioned so far is via the West London Line from Clapham Jct,although I'm not sure whether a route exists from the SWML to WLL at Clapham Jct. Re-instatement of the West London Loop at North Pole together with some tweaking of the junctions at this point would be required.

An added bonus to this route would be that the Sussex lines could also use this route also a route into Waterloo and a service for the WLL stations.

I think the only way to get from WLL to SWML would be via Point Pleasant Junction, East Putney and the District Line. This would obviously be completely unfeasable, unless you took over the district line South of East Putney, which would anger no end of District Line commuters from Wimbledon/Southfields.
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Exactly, trains would need to reverse or else a sharp (very sharp) curve would be needed.

Wouldn't this be using the old Cross Country Brighton route, which went via Clapham Junction, Kensington Olympia and then via Mitre Bridge Junction, West London Junction and Acton Wells Junction. None of these are horribly sharp curves. (I'm not suggesting this is a good idea though, due to a lack of paths).

Route here.

 

[ExRes]

Exactly, trains would need to reverse or else a sharp (very sharp) curve would be needed.

I can't see why, unless they've changed the layout between West London Jct and Acton Mainline since my time of course

 

[HowardGWR]

I just don't see using the WLL is very likely, given the capacity issues either side of the connection (well, on it too). A Gatwick to Heathrow connection will definitely be needed (it is now) looking at how the Davies Commission is shaping up. It must be remembered that airport to airport traffic is not likely to be large, but incorporating such a connection in a wider route to provide better connections to the airports is more likely to have a good business case, i.e. the trains would be well-filled.

I suppose transfer pax would need to go through immigration checks at either end but I think they do already, in the sense that airline staff just don't allow anyone on flights!

 

[swt_passenger]

An added bonus to this route would be that the Sussex lines could also use this route also a route into Waterloo and a service for the WLL stations.

There is no junction between the SN and SWT main lines at Clapham 'Junction' - running from any of the SN routes towards Waterloo is physically impossible, even if paths or platform capacity ever became available...

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I just don't see using the WLL is very likely, given the capacity issues either side of the connection (well, on it too). A Gatwick to Heathrow connection will definitely be needed (it is now) looking at how the Davies Commission is shaping up...

I don't see the WLL having much spare capacity anyway - from what we're constantly told the various LO routes on the NLL and WLL basically operate at the route's capacity already. I think Thameslink and Crossrail together, interchanging at Farringdon, will potentially always provide a faster connection than a 'round the south west' version ever will.

So the only justification for this new theoretical route is to remove that requirement to change trains, and I don't think there's anything like as much traffic between airports to justify such a route as well as Croosrail/Thameslink.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't see the WLL having much spare capacity anyway - from what we're constantly told the various LO routes on the NLL and WLL basically operate at the route's capacity already. I think Thameslink and Crossrail together, interchanging at Farringdon, will potentially always provide a faster connection than a 'round the south west' version ever will.

So the only justification for this new theoretical route is to remove that requirement to change trains, and I don't think there's anything like as much traffic between airports to justify such a route as well as Croosrail/Thameslink.

It's not just a change of trains, it's an unnecessary journey into central London which few airport passengers would wish to contemplate anytime around the morning or evening peak. A service from Heathrow to Gatwick would improve links from a wide area of the south-western suburbs to Heathrow in particular, and would also provide for orbital non-airport journeys for which there is likely to be a significant demand.

 

[JamesRowden]

I have attached what the London and South East RUS showed for 'options for new rail routes to Heathrow Airport'. J2 is in the HLOS (Heathrow-Slough). If option J3 was implemented and allowed Crossrail services to be extended from Heathrow through Staines to Woking, there would be a new direct link between the SWML and Heathrow.

 

[JamesRowden]

It's not just a change of trains, it's an unnecessary journey into central London which few airport passengers would wish to contemplate anytime around the morning or evening peak. A service from Heathrow to Gatwick would improve links from a wide area of the south-western suburbs to Heathrow in particular, and would also provide for orbital non-airport journeys for which there is likely to be a significant demand.

If option J3 was implemented in the way that I suggested, but extended even further to Guildford, it would connect with North Downs services to Gatwick.

 

[edwin_m]

Not sure how it would work, but it seems to me that a Reading-Gatwick service via Heathrow would make more sense than the current route.

 

[The Ham]

Not sure how it would work, but it seems to me that a Reading-Gatwick service via Heathrow would make more sense than the current route.

Good, that may free up some space on those trains for other passengers.

That's because, the line (like most non London services) is busy with people travelling between various points along its length rather than end to end.

 

[edwin_m]

Good, that may free up some space on those trains for other passengers.

That's because, the line (like most non London services) is busy with people travelling between various points along its length rather than end to end.

Yes, and maybe finish it at Redhill (avoiding reversal) or even continue to Tonbridge or beyond.

 

[HowardGWR]

Not sure how it would work, but it seems to me that a Reading-Gatwick service via Heathrow would make more sense than the current route.

I agree but could you specify your 'fave' route, just for interest.

 

[tsr]

Yes, and maybe finish it at Redhill (avoiding reversal) or even continue to Tonbridge or beyond.

A fair number of passengers travel between Gatwick and the Blackwater Valley area in particular, not to mention local employees heading between local towns and the airport. It would be better to split the local service at Redhill, with a portion for Tunbridge Wells and a portion for Gatwick Airport, and vice versa.

 

[edwin_m]

I agree but could you specify your 'fave' route, just for interest.

I don't know the area well enough to say which I think would be best, and I couldn't even say which might be possible without spending some time poring over a map!

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't know the area well enough to say which I think would be best, and I couldn't even say which might be possible without spending some time poring over a map!

I think our colleague MarkyT could put us right, apart from the suggestions he already made.

 

[JamesRowden]

To me this thread seems to be pointing towards a new line around the outside of the West of London which connects:

• Redhill
  • Gatwick
    • Brighton Mainline
  • Tonbridge
    • Southeastern Services
• SWML
• Staines
  • Windsor Lines
• Heathrow
  • GWML
• Chiltern Main Line
• WCML

This would be useful for freight services, airport passengers, non-London journeys and for diversionary routes during engineering works.

 

[edwin_m]

To me this thread seems to be pointing towards a new line around the outside of the West of London which connects:

• Redhill
  • Gatwick
    • Brighton Mainline
  • Tonbridge
    • Southeastern Services
• SWML
• Staines
  • Windsor Lines
• Heathrow
  • GWML
• Chiltern Main Line
• WCML

This would be useful for freight services, airport passengers, non-London journeys and for diversionary routes during engineering works.

WRAtH and East West Rail will deliver the bit from Heathrow to the WCML.

 

[JamesRowden]

WRAtH and East West Rail will deliver the bit from Heathrow to the WCML.

What about the people between London and Bletchley for which both East West Rail and Old Oak Common are quite indirect journeys to Heathrow?

Also, the line could have local trains that act as a service that people in Zone 6 in West London would use to avoid going via Central London or the M25 if they want a good journey time.

There's also the point of is there enough freight capacity for future increases?