ATW December 2014 timetable out to stakeholders

[merlodlliw]

I have been informed the December 2014 ATW official timetable was sent to stakeholders last week for their consultation, this is out very early,due I presume to AMs raising questions about changes to North Wales services.

All County Councils transport depts in Wales & Borders franchise will have copies along with Rail user groups and others.

We are already aware of changes to Direct Holyhead/Birmingham services and North Wales to Manchester changes from OTT

I have copies now, but due to technical problems can not publish them on the forum,if you wish to see a copy of the Dec 2014
timetables for North Wales please PM me with an e mail address.Consultation ends 12th September.


Bob

 

[Cambrian158831]

Could you email details of new dec 2014. Removed. Diolch

 

[merlodlliw]

Could you email details of new dec 2014 . Diolch

Sent along with many others.

 

[berneyarms]

Many thanks for sending it on - plenty for us all to digest!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Any changes proposed to Pembrokeshire services?

 

[Max]

Could you email details of new dec 2014. Removed. Diolch

Just for future reference we wouldn't generally recommend that you post your email address in an easily readable format on the open forum, as all our content is publicly accessible. I've removed for your own security.

 

[merlodlliw]

Any changes proposed to Pembrokeshire services?

Michael Vaughan in his six page letter to stakeholders and customers puts all comment on North Wales, but checking out West Wales proposed timetable and comparing it with the current one is a good idea,we have noticed omissions in the December timetable not mentioned in the letter.Has there is only two weeks for response(12th Sept), I will ask my colleagues who have the disc to run off West Wales for you.

Bob

 

[Kite159]

Does it correct the oddity of the Wrexham Central service which is meant to depart 1 minute before the inbound service arrives?

 

[SprinterMan]

An interesting point that doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet is that most off-peak Manchester trains now ran through to the AIRPORT! After years of waiting, Arriva have apparently got permission to run them.

Adam

 

[merlodlliw]

An interesting point that doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet is that most off-peak Manchester trains now ran through to the AIRPORT! After years of waiting, Arriva have apparently got permission to run them.

Adam

If you refer to the letter sent out to you,ATW make comment about some services are subject to Network Rail approval, I understand this refers to the Airport,also not sure if other operators have agreed.

 

[Welshman]

An interesting point that doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet is that most off-peak Manchester trains now ran through to the AIRPORT! After years of waiting, Arriva have apparently got permission to run them.

Adam

Sorry, but what is your source for this?

I've just re-read the original email and can find no mention of extensions to the airport.

 

[PHILIPE]

Does it correct the oddity of the Wrexham Central service which is meant to depart 1 minute before the inbound service arrives?

I haven't had chance to look at the Timetable myself yet, but it would probably be the same. WTT and Advertised times can differ and this "anomaly" arises due to a Performance allowance on the train from Bidston.

 

[The Planner]

Something has obviously changed then as the airport paths never used to work.

 

[GarethJohn]

Could they be starting too plan for the Cambrian hourly service?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Could they be starting too plan for the Cambrian hourly service?

See the Cambrian thread no posts on it for some time though but a generic yes to your question.

 

[berneyarms]

Sorry, but what is your source for this?

I've just re-read the original email and can find no mention of extensions to the airport.

The timetables that merlodlliw sent out include table 81 showing many trains as operating to Manchester Airport, namely:
03:34, 18:49 from Chester
07:45, 09:45, 10:44, 11:44, 18:44 from Llandudno
08:54, 12:53 from Llandudno Junction

 

[Swirlz]

The timetables that merlodlliw sent out include table 81 showing many trains as operating to Manchester Airport, namely:
03:34, 18:49 from Chester
07:45, 09:45, 10:44, 11:44, 18:44 from Llandudno
08:54, 12:53 from Llandudno Junction

Those services are the ones currently operated by Chester based traincrew, (the only ones that sign the route).

The other services either turn round very quickly in Manchester, without spending much time in Mayfield/Longsight, if any, or run using Llandudno Jn or Holyhead based traincrew (who don't sign east of Manchester Picc).

I'm surprised there's no scope/demand for Manchester Picc-Manchester Airport-Crewe (via Styal)-Shrewsbury-South Wales services... perhaps just insufficient rolling stock/paths.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm surprised there's no scope/demand for Manchester Picc-Manchester Airport-Crewe (via Styal)-Shrewsbury-South Wales services... perhaps just insufficient rolling stock/paths.

I think I read a suggestion somewhere of diverting the current MAN-South Wales service via the airport instead of Stockport. Not sure if that came from ATW or just somebody on here. Also not sure what the journey time difference would be or how much of a loss of demand removing the Stockport stop would cause.

 

[merlodlliw]

The timetables that merlodlliw sent out include table 81 showing many trains as operating to Manchester Airport, namely:
03:34, 18:49 from Chester
07:45, 09:45, 10:44, 11:44, 18:44 from Llandudno
08:54, 12:53 from Llandudno Junction

I am not sure these proposals have finally been agreed with Network Rail or the other TOCs using the Airport, The ATW letter seems to imply some services are still to be agreed,In my opinion its the extras to the airport,ATW don't require extra stock,as current each DMU arriving in Piccadilly then waits 50 minutes before departing again.

I think I read a suggestion somewhere of diverting the current MAN-South Wales service via the airport instead of Stockport. Not sure if that came from ATW or just somebody on here. Also not sure what the journey time difference would be or how much of a loss of demand removing the Stockport stop would cause.

Problem is ATW dont give a reason for axing services to stations,if I recall in regional railways days,Abergele a good example enjoyed an hourly service to/from Manchester,whereas the Hourly Crewe/North Wales did not stop,
Around six miles in either direction Rhyl/Colwyn had a 30 minutes service both up & down, so it would appear smaller stations if the consultative timetable is agreed would become bi or tri hourly,Wrexham went BI Hourly following the A483 singling of the line to Chester, the public then became bus oriented.
Anyhow current Welsh Government think tank,is weighing up the pros & cons of running a Bi Hourly Cardiff/Holyhead semi fast,cutting out small stations,if ever it gets off the ground using redundant HSTs.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I am not sure these proposals have finally been agreed with Network Rail or the other TOCs using the Airport, The ATW letter seems to imply some services are still to be agreed,In my opinion its the extras to the airport,ATW don't require extra stock,as current each DMU arriving in Piccadilly then waits 50 minutes before departing again.



Problem is ATW dont give a reason for axing services to stations,if I recall in regional railways days,Abergele a good example enjoyed an hourly service to/from Manchester,whereas the Hourly Crewe/North Wales did not stop,
Around six miles in either direction Rhyl/Colwyn had a 30 minutes service both up & down, so it would appear smaller stations if the consultative timetable is agreed would become bi or tri hourly,Wrexham went BI Hourly following the A483 singling of the line to Chester, the public then became bus oriented.
Anyhow current Welsh Government think tank,is weighing up the pros & cons of running a Bi Hourly Cardiff/Holyhead semi fast,cutting out small stations,if ever it gets off the ground using redundant HSTs.

That's hourly CDF to Holyhead there floating. The stopping patterns at the smaller stations on the ATW network have descended into a bit of a dogs dinner in recent years as ATW have tried to shuffle their resources to match demand the principles of their 2005 standard pattern timetable have fallen apart and be uses they won't add to their rolling stock fleet unless forced to there always going to be winners and losers.

 

[Rhydgaled]

current Welsh Government think tank,is weighing up the pros & cons of running a Bi Hourly Cardiff/Holyhead semi fast,cutting out small stations,if ever it gets off the ground using redundant HSTs.

Which think tank? Their cheif transport advisor at one point seemed to be Prof. Stuart Cole who they are now saying has underestimated the costs of his south-Newport road upgrade cost by hundreds of millions and are ignoring his advice and wanting to build a brand new 6-lane motorway instead.

That's hourly CDF to Holyhead there floating. The stopping patterns at the smaller stations on the ATW network have descended into a bit of a dogs dinner in recent years as ATW have tried to shuffle their resources to match demand the principles of their 2005 standard pattern timetable have fallen apart and be uses they won't add to their rolling stock fleet unless forced to there always going to be winners and losers.

Proposal of using redundant IC125s sounds interesting, though I would suggest the sensible thing would be to use them on the hourly MAN-CDF/SWA route (with minor stops taken out) and put 175s on Crewe/Chester/Wrexham - Cardiff/Bristol trains serving the smaller stops, plus Wrexham-Bimirmingham using 158s. Most North Wales coast trains should probably go to Manchester and Crewe (or Birmingham via Crewe if electrified) not Cardiff (although an IC125 or LHCS set could work 2-3 trains per day Holyhead-CDF express).

Back on topic, any news on the Pembrokeshire services in the December consultation yet?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Which think tank? Their cheif transport advisor at one point seemed to be Prof. Stuart Cole who they are now saying has underestimated the costs of his south-Newport road upgrade cost by hundreds of millions and are ignoring his advice and wanting to build a brand new 6-lane motorway instead.

Proposal of using redundant IC125s sounds interesting, though I would suggest the sensible thing would be to use them on the hourly MAN-CDF/SWA route (with minor stops taken out) and put 175s on Crewe/Chester/Wrexham - Cardiff/Bristol trains serving the smaller stops, plus Wrexham-Bimirmingham using 158s. Most North Wales coast trains should probably go to Manchester and Crewe (or Birmingham via Crewe if electrified) not Cardiff (although an IC125 or LHCS set could work 2-3 trains per day Holyhead-CDF express).

Back on topic, any news on the Pembrokeshire services in the December consultation yet?

pM Merlodliw he'll send you pdf

 

[PHILIPE]

I think I read a suggestion somewhere of diverting the current MAN-South Wales service via the airport instead of Stockport. Not sure if that came from ATW or just somebody on here. Also not sure what the journey time difference would be or how much of a loss of demand removing the Stockport stop would cause.

The ATW services that serve the Airport run only early morning or well into the evening due, for one thing, lack of paths so to run regularly via Airport could be impracticable. I think Stockport stops are more important as there would be connections to the Hope Valley and Buxton routes. The further south you go, the less chance of people using Manchester Airport.

 

[Class 170101]

Something has obviously changed then as the airport paths never used to work.

Extra Platform at Manchester Airport?

 

[merlodlliw]

pM Merlodliw he'll send you pdf

I have asked for the info, also I note from December, due to the 0950 loco hauled Manchester/Holyhead commencing, stations between Warrington and Chester will have a two hour break of services in the morning heading West for the first time.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Problem is ATW dont give a reason for axing services to stations,if I recall in regional railways days,Abergele a good example enjoyed an hourly service to/from Manchester,whereas the Hourly Crewe/North Wales did not stop,

I think that's still the basic pattern.
Abergele and Shotton only get calls in the hourly Manchester-Llandudno service, plus the odd call in early/late Holyhead services.
I think all that's changed is the LHCS missing out some smaller stops.
If this is for technical reasons, they might have to get the next DMU service to stop instead.

 

[DaveHarries]

All very interesting. I will be interested to see if anything develops with the services in South Wales (Newport / Cardiff (inc. Valleys) / Swansea and points west) as well.

Will PM to Merlodliw and see what I can find out.
Dave

 

[PHILIPE]

Extra Platform at Manchester Airport?

There is an additional platform being built at Manchester Airport but I'm not sure if is operational yet. You've still got to path a train there and why put additional time into a service especially when the stop may never be used.

 

[Class 170101]

Isn't that a fourth platform?

I was wondering whether the third platform which was recently built may well now be able to accommodate ATW services and whether there was only no paths because of the absence of that third platform, never mind the fourth platform which doubtless will make operating Manchester Airport station easier.

 

[Welshman]

I think that's still the basic pattern.
Abergele and Shotton only get calls in the hourly Manchester-Llandudno service, plus the odd call in early/late Holyhead services.
I think all that's changed is the LHCS missing out some smaller stops.
If this is for technical reasons, they might have to get the next DMU service to stop instead.

Yes - I wondered if there's some technical reason that the LHCS cannot/do not stop at Abergele & Pensarn.
But then on the last few Saturdays, trains 1K52 & 1D74 [Gerald's unadvertised little run out to Crewe] stopped at Abergele in both directions.