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Northern and TPE Consultation Document

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Xenophon PCDGS

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Have RMT still not got around to reading the consultation? All their supposed 'revelations' are already in there and even feature amongst the consultation questions?

Perhaps Mick Cash is hoping that many other people also do not read the consultation document in full and as such, will be susceptible to any "scaremongering" news releases that will have the maximum possible impact...:roll:
 
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Olaf

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Tomnick

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Very backward looking, and partisan.
Are you reading the same article as me? The proposals within seem very forward thinking - surely sensible ways of giving some of the rural services a better chance of paying for themselves. Then again, it might also keep more jobs safe, which is clearly a bad thing for some on here...
 

WatcherZero

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Summary of TfGM's formal consultation response in my own paraphrasing:

Trade Offs
We need a fare policy that offers value for the customer as well as generating an income stream that can be reinvested in the railway. We require fare levels are consistent with the approach of increasing long term economic growth as measured through GVA. Any increase in fares must be matched by increased revenue protection and the deployment of smart ticketing.

Improvement in rolling stock is a key aim however we dont accept the trade off proposed by the consultation that rolling stock improvements may require reduced stopping patterns, as passengers expect and should be provided with improved rolling stock as a minimum condition.

We understand the benefits of staffed stations and changes should consider wider passenger needs, no reduction in ticket office staffing or opening hours should occur until AFTER improvements in information and ticketing provision.

Future Impacts on Demand

We have strongly advocated the franchises should be based on a position of growth and a no growth approach would be detrimental to the economy. We have highlighted all the improvement schemes planned and under construction and believe they will alongside population growth in GM produce an increase in demand including for freight paths.

Door to Door Journeys

We have demonstrated the many schemes we are pursuing as part of our blueprint for a low carbon economy. We have also highlighted the many different funding pots available for delivery however we stress a baseline franchise commitment to passenger facilities upon which we can then plan a funding strategy.

TransPennine Express Train Service Specification

we have stressed that we would expect to see enhanced travel opportunities into key towns and cities that reflect their importance as centres of employment and wider economic activity and panregional links to support northern growth objectives. In doing so, key points include:

* Need for express services with improved journey times and operating patterns that reflect a modern economy.
* The importance of planning to meet future demand forecasts and avoid overcrowding in peak.
* The need for services to reflect the strategic importance of Manchester Airport.
* Stopping trade offs may still be required post electrification, so long as local input is reflected and short termism doesnt undermine the longer term economy.
* That outside the regional centre, Stalybridge in particular, are recognised as key TPE gateways.
* That Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield and Newcastle need good connections between each other as shown through the One North plan.
* That the quality of railways within the scope of Rail North is improved with a better offer for passengers.
* That Barrow and Blackpool North should be served by one franchise rather than two.
* Anglo - Scottish Services suffer crowding during to carrying Bolton Commuters and enough capacity must be provided to perform both functions.

In addition, ‘rail fare yields’ from north of England Train Operating Companies are identified as not being that dissimilar to other regional and inter – city operators. When comparing, ‘northern’ yields, to those in London and the South East, it is also evident that commuter journeys in the north are shorter in length. Many commuter rail fares in London and the South East are significantly lower than those in northern cities e.g. an annual season ticket between Banbury and Oxford at 39p/km is considerably lower compared to the cost of 52p/km for a similar distance journey between Stalybridge and Leeds. This, again, is the case when comparing the cost of an annual season ticket between Oxford and London which has been identified as cheaper, at 46p/mile. It has also been identified that typically a shorter distance commuter in Northern cities pays a higher fare per km than a longer distance commuter from London’s commuter belt e.g. the annual season ticket costs of 89p/km for East Didsbury to Manchester compared to 50-57p/mile for a typical commute into London1.

They give an example of how level boarding on Metrolink removes the need for staff to provide the required accessibility to passengers and reduces staffing costs. They go on to suggest that the higher level of passenger facilities such as ticket machines, passenger information, PA and CCTV, customer service call facilities, etc.. would be required if the rail network wanted to reduce staffing or move to DOO at significant cost.

Under further unmentioned 3rd party funded changes they list Salford Central going from 2 to 5 platforms and that a franchisee would be required to work with them on the rollout of early works of phase 1 of tram-train strategy including track sharing through Navigation Road and on to Altrincham.

On TPE service requirements:
In general, we would expect to see travel opportunities supported into key towns and cities that reflect their importance as centres of employment and wider economic activity. On Mondays to Saturdays we would expect first trains to arrive at the key centres from stations within 50km by 07:00 and from stations between 50km and 100km by 08:00. On Sundays we would expect arrivals by 09:30. On all days of the week we would expect last departures to stations between 50km and 100km after 22:00 and to stations within 50km after 23:00. Given patterns of social activity, we would anticipate good commercial reasons to operate trains later on Friday and Saturday evenings, and would be keen to see an entrepreneurial approach adopted.

Manchester Airport has particular requirements, requiring local transport links to provide early arrivals before 04:00 and late departures after midnight.

Blackpool, Scarborough, Barrow, Windermere and Hope Valley and to/from Scotland have particular requirements for tourist services at weekends.

We support 6 TPH Manchester to Leeds but only with extra calls at Stalybridge by long distance services on whether services should go to Manchester Airport or Liverpool they say it should be left to the bidder to decide. Services to the Airport should go beyond beyond Leeds / York to other major centres - such as Hull, Middlesbrough and Newcastle though how should be left to the commercial innovation of the bidder rather than being directly specified. Say the strongest economically viable destination for South TPE services should retain diesel expresses with other destinations being served by slower services via Calder Valley to not undermine electrification savings. Say services should continue from the Airport to beyond Doncaster however they could be formed by services that join/split. Other places they would like to link to Manchester Airport/wider NW are Nottingham, Lincoln and Rotherham.

There should be increased frequency 'summer timetables' to coastal towns, such as Blackpool and Southport;
• along the Hope Valley (to access the Peak District National Park from both Manchester and Sheffield);
• to Buxton (especially during the Festival in July);
• the Mid Cheshire line to Delamere Forest and Chester;
• to Barrow and Windermere (to access the Lake District National Park);
• onto the Settle & Carlisle line (to access the Yorkshire Dales National Park); and
• to cities such as Chester, Liverpool and York.



Full response in second half of this document.
http://www.agma.gov.uk/cms_media/files/gmca_agenda_and_reports_merged_29_august_2014.pdf
 

HH

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In addition, ‘rail fare yields’ from north of England Train Operating Companies are identified as not being that dissimilar to other regional and inter – city operators. When comparing, ‘northern’ yields, to those in London and the South East, it is also evident that commuter journeys in the north are shorter in length. Many commuter rail fares in London and the South East are significantly lower than those in northern cities e.g. an annual season ticket between Banbury and Oxford at 39p/km is considerably lower compared to the cost of 52p/km for a similar distance journey between Stalybridge and Leeds. This, again, is the case when comparing the cost of an annual season ticket between Oxford and London which has been identified as cheaper, at 46p/mile. It has also been identified that typically a shorter distance commuter in Northern cities pays a higher fare per km than a longer distance commuter from London’s commuter belt e.g. the annual season ticket costs of 89p/km for East Didsbury to Manchester compared to 50-57p/mile for a typical commute into London1.
This is most disingenuous. Rail travel is generally more expensive per km for shorter journeys than longer on the same route - London Underground is an easy to see example of this. I'm not sure what the reasons are for this, it might be market-led or cost-led or a mixture, but, if you consider it, there are fixed costs which are there whatever the length of the journey (for example the cost of selling a ticket, or providing information at the start and end stations) and some which do not increase proportionally with journey length (if a train runs 500km a day, it spreads the leasing cost a lot further than one running 200km a day). Therefore, in general, you would expect longer journeys to cost less per km. They need to compare apples with apples.

Because of the much higher (off-peak) usage around London, if it were left entirely to market forces the London fares would be a lot lower than those in the North.
 

WatcherZero

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Actually no, London has a lower proportion of off peak usage compared to peaks than the North, always has, until privatisation thousands of carriages were maintained in London that were only used for three hours per day whereas up North they tended to be used to form leisure services outside commuter peak periods whose demand remained throughout the day. Until recently there hasnt been a need for evening peak prices in the North because the return journeys were distributed over a longer time period which balanced loads, however now demand for peak travel is exceeding supply.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Summary of TfGM's formal consultation response in my own paraphrasing:

TransPennine Express Train Service Specification

* That Barrow and Blackpool North should be served by one franchise rather than two.

I have highlighted the Blackpool North part of this and would ask if the suggestion would be that the current Blackpool North to York service run by Northern Rail entails the translation of this service to the TransPennine Express new franchise ?
 

IanXC

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I have highlighted the Blackpool North part of this and would ask if the suggestion would be that the current Blackpool North to York service run by Northern Rail entails the translation of this service to the TransPennine Express new franchise ?

I think there have been mutterings of 319s on Manchester Airport-Blackpool North, which would suggest the opposite, with the current TPE service transferring to Northern - but either option would achieve that aim, and TfGM don't seem to be advocating one over the other.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I think there have been mutterings of 319s on Manchester Airport-Blackpool North, which would suggest the opposite, with the current TPE service transferring to Northern - but either option would achieve that aim, and TfGM don't seem to be advocating one over the other.

How lucrative is the Manchester Airport to Blackpool North service to First TPE ?
 

HH

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Actually no, London has a lower proportion of off peak usage compared to peaks than the North, always has, until privatisation thousands of carriages were maintained in London that were only used for three hours per day whereas up North they tended to be used to form leisure services outside commuter peak periods whose demand remained throughout the day. Until recently there hasnt been a need for evening peak prices in the North because the return journeys were distributed over a longer time period which balanced loads, however now demand for peak travel is exceeding supply.
You clearly haven't travelled on the London off peak services very much. There are lines that have little off-peak travel (some longer distance Kent services, C2C), but there are many lines that are very busy, for example Greater Anglia, Great Northern, Great Western (Thames), BML, etc. etc. These are not busy 2 or 3-car trains, these are 8-car and even the occasional 12.
 

northwichcat

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There should be increased frequency 'summer timetables' to coastal towns, such as Blackpool and Southport;
• along the Hope Valley (to access the Peak District National Park from both Manchester and Sheffield);
• to Buxton (especially during the Festival in July);
• the Mid Cheshire line to Delamere Forest and Chester;
• to Barrow and Windermere (to access the Lake District National Park);
• onto the Settle & Carlisle line (to access the Yorkshire Dales National Park); and
• to cities such as Chester, Liverpool and York.



Full response in second half of this document.
http://www.agma.gov.uk/cms_media/files/gmca_agenda_and_reports_merged_29_august_2014.pdf

The link isn't working. Maybe the pdf has been removed?

It's worth noting the busiest 'off-peak' services on a number of the lines around Manchester can be found on the Saturdays leading up to Christmas, opposed to those in the Summer. With the addition of evening peak restrictions I can see people who would have done their Christmas shopping on a weekday instead doing it at the weekend and making the pre-Christmas Saturdays even worse.
 

northwichcat

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I find this part interesting:

With this measure as a starting point and considering the desire for attractive services both in terms of both frequency and journey time an initial target for service frequency at a station relative to the number of passengers using a station can be developed as follows:
• Up to 25,000 trips per annum - infrequent service, based on busiest times of day
• 25,000-50,000 trips per annum - 1 train per hour
• 50,000-500,000 trips per annum - 2 trains per hour
• Over 500,000 trips per annum - 4 (or more) trains per hour

If current levels of growth continue on the Mid-Cheshire line then Altrincham and Knutsford it suggests they would support 4tph between Knutsford and Manchester with half of those extended to Chester.
 

yorksrob

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You clearly haven't travelled on the London off peak services very much. There are lines that have little off-peak travel (some longer distance Kent services, C2C), but there are many lines that are very busy, for example Greater Anglia, Great Northern, Great Western (Thames), BML, etc. etc. These are not busy 2 or 3-car trains, these are 8-car and even the occasional 12.

From my experience of travelling in the South East (Kent in particular) off-peak services generally seem to be less lightly loaded than those I travel on in the North. I suspect that this is because the heavier commuter traffic leaves the South East with longer trains to play with during the off-peak.

From WatcherZero's summary I'm generally quite impressed with TfGM's response. I hope they have the political back-up to drive some of their points home where it counts.
 
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HH

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From my experience of travelling in the South East (Kent in particular) off-peak services generally seem to be less lightly loaded than those I travel on in the North. I suspect that this is because the heavier commuter traffic leaves the South East with longer trains to play with during the off-peak.

From WatcherZero's summary I'm generally quite impressed with TfGM's response. I hope they have the political back-up to drive some of their points home where it counts.

More trains generate more traffic; longer trains only would do so if crowded as a shorter train. The North undoubtedly requires increased capacity on some routes. But, so does the South.

I agree about TfGM; their response is very good. Much better than the Salveson whinge.
 

northwichcat

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I'm generally quite impressed with TfGM's response. I hope they have the political back-up to drive some of their points home where it counts.

It could well be that Altrincham and Ashton have over 500,000 journeys per annum when the 13/14 figures come out. It would be interesting to see TfGM supporting 4tph at those stations alongside Metrolink.
 

Deerfold

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Until recently there hasnt been a need for evening peak prices in the North because the return journeys were distributed over a longer time period which balanced loads, however now demand for peak travel is exceeding supply.

On some lines at some times, perhaps. But no need for the blacket restrictions coming in. A train from Keighley or Halifax towards Leeds will not be busy at 1800.
 

Starmill

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On some lines at some times, perhaps. But no need for the blacket restrictions coming in. A train from Keighley or Halifax towards Leeds will not be busy at 1800.

Just like a train from Buxton to Manchester at 1800...
 

thealexweb

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I find this part interesting:



If current levels of growth continue on the Mid-Cheshire line then Altrincham and Knutsford it suggests they would support 4tph between Knutsford and Manchester with half of those extended to Chester.

Some stations near me would stand to gain big if that metric was used.

Blackrod - 0.573mn in 12/13 currently served by 1tph in each direction.
Bromley Cross - 0.381mn in 12/13 - currently served by 1tph in each direction for most of the day.
 

northwichcat

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Some stations near me would stand to gain big if that metric was used.

Blackrod - 0.573mn in 12/13 currently served by 1tph in each direction.
Bromley Cross - 0.381mn in 12/13 - currently served by 1tph in each direction for most of the day.

Blackrod could easily be served by more trains post-electrification as long as they make sure the platforms are extended enough for the longest trains operating on the line.
 

mwmbwls

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Some stations near me would stand to gain big if that metric was used.

Blackrod - 0.573mn in 12/13 currently served by 1tph in each direction.
Bromley Cross - 0.381mn in 12/13 - currently served by 1tph in each direction for most of the day.

Won't the Bromley Cross 1tph issue disappear once the Darwen loop is in place and the train frequency doubled? Speaking of Darwen - what is the current status of the works?
 

yorksrob

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More trains generate more traffic; longer trains only would do so if crowded as a shorter train. The North undoubtedly requires increased capacity on some routes. But, so does the South.

I agree about TfGM; their response is very good. Much better than the Salveson whinge.

To be fair, I think that Paul Salveson had some good points, for example about doubling up services at ticket offices (as happens on Merseyrail).

They both agree that trade-offs of one service against another are not acceptable.
 

HH

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To be fair, I think that Paul Salveson had some good points, for example about doubling up services at ticket offices (as happens on Merseyrail).

Selling tickets and other stuff is not a new idea, but it's harder to make it work than you think. If the station is too busy then you need dedicated ticket sellers; if it's too quiet then there's little point in selling other stuff. Then you have to spend the money creating a new, and more expensive retail environment. Generally it works on MR because it's a city service and a long-term franchise. It might work in Manchester too if DfT allow residual value. It won't work across most of Northern.

They both agree that trade-offs of one service against another are not acceptable.
That's hardly surprising is it? And TBH I doubt whether Manchester services are on the DfT's "hit list". As I noted elsewhere, Manchester & Leeds are the busy bits.
 

northwichcat

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And TBH I doubt whether Manchester services are on the DfT's "hit list". As I noted elsewhere, Manchester & Leeds are the busy bits.

I'm not so sure. Marple does seem to have too many services for the number of passengers off-peak even though most Manchester area services need more capacity.
 

yorksrob

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Selling tickets and other stuff is not a new idea, but it's harder to make it work than you think. If the station is too busy then you need dedicated ticket sellers; if it's too quiet then there's little point in selling other stuff. Then you have to spend the money creating a new, and more expensive retail environment. Generally it works on MR because it's a city service and a long-term franchise. It might work in Manchester too if DfT allow residual value. It won't work across most of Northern.

Nothings a panacea in the railway industry and I don't think anyone's suggesting that Corcikle or Wennington will get one, however, it could work for some places and it's a more positive starting place than cuts.

That's hardly surprising is it? And TBH I doubt whether Manchester services are on the DfT's "hit list". As I noted elsewhere, Manchester & Leeds are the busy bits.

Well, yes, it's only natural that any authority with any legitimacy would want to strike down such a stupid and ill thought out policy suggestion, however it's still good to see.

The fact that Manchester is one of the "busy bit's" means that even with this policy their bits of route would probably remain, however Manchester obviously appreciates that Mancunians have an interest in a decent network beyond its borders.
 

thealexweb

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Blackrod could easily be served by more trains post-electrification as long as they make sure the platforms are extended enough for the longest trains operating on the line.

As I saw a few weeks ago while commuting between Chorley and Bolton, the platforms at Blackrod can currently take 3 x 150/2 with all doors able to open.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Won't the Bromley Cross 1tph issue disappear once the Darwen loop is in place and the train frequency doubled? Speaking of Darwen - what is the current status of the works?

The line can currently deliver a half hourly service without the need for any additional work, 2tph is provided during the peaks with few difficulties.

No work is currently underway at any point on the line. The long rumoured loops and other work have so far come to nothing.
 
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158756

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The line can currently deliver a half hourly service without the need for any additional work, 2tph is provided during the peaks with few difficulties.

No work is currently underway at any point on the line. The long rumoured loops and other work have so far come to nothing.

If that is the case why are we told we cannot have a 2 tph off peak service because the line doesn't have the capacity? Funding has apparently been found, with the council saying the Darwen loop should be extended in 2015-16.
However further up the line there are concerns about service cuts to Clitheroe under the new franchise.
 

Des Iroman

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Some stations near me would stand to gain big if that metric was used.

Blackrod - 0.573mn in 12/13 currently served by 1tph in each direction.

Reliance on bare statistics doesn't always tell the full story - I wonder how many of those journeys are regular travellers or season ticket holders from Chorley / Preston etc taking advantage of split-ticketing using Blackrod as the boundary for TfGM fares? There's been plenty of that going on for years!
 
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