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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress
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A comfortable seat with reasonable legroom for a journey of up to two and a half hours (ie longer than London to Manchester services) is not on-board frippery, it is a basic requirement when people are paying to use a service, often up to several thousand pounds a year.
The interior of those trains look like they've been designed by Monty Pythons four Yorkshiremen,
Not enoof legroom, you are lucky, youv'e got seat. When I were lad trains had no seats and we 'ad to sit on floor, and we were grateful. Wooden floor, Luxury....
Will Govia or any successor be able to secure enough 377s to make up over 100 full trains?
Are we to believe that the noise on this forum complaining about shiny new trains given by the 'London government' at the expense of the poor north, as being representative of the non-rail enthusiast populace? If it is, then rather than do as you suggest, the current plan will hold and the trains would get gadgetised after about 10 years, describing the expense as a refurb./comfort enhancement.
I suspect that there will be few passenger whinges that will be amplified by the media, but IF the stock beds in OK the TOC will be able to point to a service with far less overcrowding and more reliable timekeeping.
My great great grandchildren will be well past half way through their operational lives by the time that happens.
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They could send some of the 700s up north where they will be far more suitable for the short distance Liverpool to Manchester shuttles. We could then keep the 319s which would be welcomed back with open arms after a dose of 700s. The North are more than welcome to the 700s!
There isn't any overcrowding now on the Bedford line north of St Albans (other than when there is disruption) and timekeeping is pretty good on the whole so they are going to struggle to sell these things. Even the Class 377s are not greatly liked as against the 319s by many, as the seats are perceived by some to be too hard and uncomfortable.
If the 700s have not been expelled from Bedford services by Christmas 2022, I will be quite surprised.
This has been covered before. Very few passengers will be doing two and a half hour journeys. The average journey time from the north will be well under 1 hour and not much more from the south.
I would probably agree with comments about legroom, - it seems to be a popular way to squeeze people in on aircraft as well even when the population is getting taller each with generation. It doesn't seem to stop people flocking to airlines that do crush them in to save a couple of percent on the overall airfare, so I suppose that TOCs see it as an opportunity thermselves.
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You are forgetting that in order to stand any chance of operating a 24tph core service, all trains need to have ATO and equal operating characteristics.
Oh you would be surprised. Plenty do it offpeak, especially in the summer!
Its over an hour from Bedford to Blackfriars and I would say that a decent seat with sufficient legroom is just as neccesary for that length of journey
24 per hour will only be in the peaks, it will be 16 per hour offpeak. If it turns out as bad as I fear it will then they might need to cut the peaks back to 20 per hour and terminate the other four at Kings Cross suburban and London Bridge/Blackfriars terminal platforms to enable alternative stock.
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Very few EMT trains stop at Bedford in the morning peak (more in the evening) so many Bedford passengers get on Thameslink.
While Harpenden northwards may not be the majority, they pay the highest fares by far for a 12 month travelcard from Bedford (£5,256), Flitwick (£5,048) Harpenden (£4,288), also FCC get very little revenue from Elstree to East Croydon and the Wall of Death because its in the travelcard area and shared. The commuters from North Herts and Beds make an awful lot of influential noise if annoyed; as EMT discovered to their cost when they cut out some Bedford stops in the evening and had to reinstate them a year later. Similarly the residents of places such as Balcombe and Haywards Heath (who single handedly managed to bully BR into having 1st class on the 319s). I expect MPs Lilley, Selous, Dorries, Djanogly Jackson, Maude and Soames will be quite voluble on this issue once their mailbags start filling up.
As will EMT, Hollobone and Bone when the large number of people from Northampton/Daventry etc who currently drive to Flitwick start driving to Wellingborough instead of Flitwick and turning EMTs trains into sardine cans with their £7k a year commuters unable to get seats.
I was quite surprised that the Bedfordshire Commuters Association and Association of Passenger Transport users have been quiet on this matter to date, however the latest APTU newsletter released online explains why this may be the case:
"Siemens / Class 700s – the new Thameslink rolling stock
APTU, BCA and other stakeholders from Great Northern and the Brighton Mainline have been engaged with FCC on the final design of these trains for some time now. Unfortunately, we are not in a position to reveal details as yet as we were required by the Department for Transport to enter into a Non-Disclosure Agreement. We are pressing for us and other stakeholders to be released from this, which may occur after the formal launch of the new trains, which is expected to be relatively soon. We will then be able to comment to you."
http://www.aptu.org.uk/pdfs/aptunews20131211.pdf
I fear this is not going to end well and they backed themselves into a corner when they rebuilt St Pancras with only four terminating platforms for the Midland Main line so peak hour services from Bedford to St Pancras using better stock are a no go.
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HSTEd
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Increasingly with modern designs there is no gap between the carriages - in new designs we are starting to see covers fitted over the gangways precisely to stop this from occurring.
Skin friction is also a comparitively minor factor now that we have trains with such smooth sides (compared to historical norms) - just take a look at a Mark 1 or similar and then a modern vehicle.
The effect of increasing friction is below that considered to be linear with train length - as would be expected.
Even if the two skin friction components [of two component vehicles] add linearly the nose friction components clearly do not as there is only one set of nose friction.
This means it will become less and less important as the train length growths.
I never said it would be - just that as train length grows the performance of the train will tend to grow more similar to the hypothetical performance in a vacuum - as the rolling resistance (which is by definition linear with train length) comes to dominate over the air resistance terms.
Thanks to distributed traction - the heavier the train is the more tractive effort it has.
Why? Modern motors are essentially unlimited by gearing factors thanks to developments in motor design and materials. Which means that the only limit is how much tractive effort can be put down before the wheel slips.
Urgo more effort can go down if the vehicle is loaded.
The thameslink core is hardly a known hotspot for leaf contamination.
Power is irrelevant - we have it coming out of our ears, especially now that the death warrant of the third rail electrification system as a whole has been signed.
How much work would it take to extend the 25kV to the southern edge of the core? It is already in place all the way to City Thameslink isn't it?
The AGV fits a pair of ~750hp motors inside the bogie.
We have 1hp/lb motors - we have more power than we know what to do with.
The weight of the motors has become insignificant in the mess of the train - on the order of single digit percent.
Once the capital cost of bridge rebuilds and TOC compensation payments for possessions becomes apparent this idea will sink without trace......just as it did in 1948 and 1967. Ashford -Hastings will undoubtably be 25kV, but I would be surprised if this idea gets any further off the ground.
How I wish this forum had the flying pig smilie available. What is so amusing is that the idea has come just after a major upgrade of all the third rail supply equipment for the 37x trains when the mark 1s were withdrawn. Its not as if it is due for wholesale replacement.
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As long as the Balcombe lot and others keep insisting that their trains are maxed-out with accoutrements that add to the weight and power requirements of trains, the 750V system will become more and more inviable. The existing kit in some areas is soon due for wholesale replacement and it has been mentioned here that costings for the SWML from Basingstoke to Weymouth would seem to indicate that conversion to OHLE AC would not only enable a full service to operate beyond Bournemouth but actually be cheaper to implement.
I suspect that the same would apply to other 3rd rail sections outside the TfL zones and possibly the main line from LBG to East Croydon.
AIUI There are only plans to do Southampton to Basingstoke as part of the electric spine and I dont think that is by any means definite. That bit will be relatively simple because the line was adjusted to clear it from Port of Southampton to Basingstoke for W10 freight gauge so pretty well all the bridges have already been rebuilt that need to be. I'm looking forward to seeing how they get on in Southampton tunnel though.
Most of the rest will be far more difficult, especially the ex SE&C lines, many of which are built to sub standard gauge, a lot of the early LSWR/LBSCR lines were not much better either gaugewise, leading to not infrequent decapitations of people who leaned out of the window in certain places when trains had opening windows.
Most of the really old stuff is on the central and south western suburban lines (Raynes Park and Selhurst ECR area) and this will be virtually impossible to convert due to the capital/disruption cost. Read Fiennes on when they upgraded the voltage on the Great Eastern from ~6kV to 25kV to get an idea of the problems. Still, I'm sure the occupants of Wimbledon FCs old ground know best.
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The amount paid by those further out is much less than St Albans in real terms. If we forget the Travelcard bit as that has no reference to distance travelled, the price per mile per year to City Thameslink (a London Thameslink destination) is:
St Albans - £142.58
Harpenden - £130.99
Flitwick - £94.11
Bedford - £83.09
so with a large discount having been made for the 'larger purchase', all other things then including the trains should be equal. The fact that they will pay more per year is because they are being carried further - Duh!
Incidentally, Radlett annual seasons are priced at £141.49 per mile per year so SAC is by far the most expensive ticket on the line.
It dosent change the basic fact that people travelling for the best part of an hour each way and paying £5k for the privilege are entitled to a decent seat, not something that seems no more comfortable than the 1922 vintage SECR 100 seaters on the Bluebell railway.
The logical end of your argument is to rip out all the seats on Pendolinos with everyone made to stand because the price per mile over 200 miles is far less than for shorter journeys.
Anyway, we can argue about it until the cows come home, we will just have to wait and see what happens as the die is cast now.
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The Southampton Tunnel is also now W10 which was achieved by lowering the track be a couple of years ago. I imagine that using a fixed rail would minimise the additional headroom taken up and as the tunnel is a two track elliptical cross section, there would be more height above the track centres than at the W12 shoulder height. The main cause of a delay could be SWTs current practice of servicing the 455s at Eastleigh.
Sub standard guage would make the job more difficult but not impossible given the increasing benefit of a widespread common system and through running capabilities that would be opened up. As far as width is concerned, that won't affect the knitting.
I was travelling on the GE when it was uprated to standard 25kV. Most of the work involved changing the clearances that had been set up for the 1500VDC in the '40s. The 6.25kV even used some of the DC insulators. What happened between the GE original AC and the LMR electrification was that the minimum clearance was relaxed from about 13 inches to around 8 inches. This made the 6.25 to 25kV change much easier. I'm sure with even more modern materials and techniques like fixed rails, as well as more tolerant pantograph design, the difficulties will be overcome. Crossrail 2 will also play its part in the decision as there will be some dedicated track where it surfaces, just like Crossrail (1).
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But people paying £5k a year aren't entitled to a seat of any kind, even in first class. Of course you'd hope to get one - especially in first - but it's not a given or anything you can (officially) moan about.
As long as you can fit on the train and get to your destination when you're supposed to, the railway has done its job.
As long as you can fit on the train and get to your destination when you're supposed to, the railway has done its job.
I'm not biting.
Not asking you to. I wasn't trying to wind anyone up, just staying the harsh reality.
There are of course plenty of ways to increase your chances of getting a seat, from picking the right service to knowing which carriage to board.
asylumxl
Established Member
This is true. Especially on Thameslink,
What amuses me is those people with FC tickets who insist on standing in FC even if it's rammed, despite their being plenty of space in standard
.Goldfish62
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This is true. Especially on Thameslink,
What amuses me is those people with FC tickets who insist on standing in FC even if it's rammed, despite their being plenty of space in standard
Perhaps they're waiting for a vacant seat in 1st?
This is true. Especially on Thameslink,
What amuses me is those people with FC tickets who insist on standing in FC even if it's rammed, despite their being plenty of space in standard
Perhaps they're staff, giving evil eyes to the punters who obviously don't have first class tickets.
Or get up early. Its amazing how much less crowded it is if you get to London before 7.30AM
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Sitting in first class without a first class ticket is a very high risk activity on FCC. They appear to regard sitting in first class with a standard ticket as intentional and dishonest fare evasion and often prosecute rather than just penalty fare, even for a first offence.
They even do ticket checks in the core and catch people who sit in first class between the London stations.
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asylumxl
Established Member
Being that most of them get on after me and alight before me, I think that's not the case. They never do get a seat.
I think it's just an attitude that since they paid for a FC ticket they'll use the FC area.
I don't think they have first class tickets its just that it is a less crowded area to stand and they think they won't get done if they stand up. This is based on the fact that there are normally several free first class seats and they don't use them.
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Its the legal position because otherwise all services would have to be compulsory reservation. However if people are standing for long distances it is not good customer service and a good way to lose future goodwill and revenue to the roads or competing TOCs.
asylumxl
Established Member
I definitely have seen people standing in FC having their tickets checked by FCC RPIs with no issues.
I get the impression that standing in 1st Class with a Std ticket is often tolerated if the train is fullish. I would imagine that it is not very good for public relations to start prosecuting people standing in there on a full train.
AFAIR the conditions of carraige mean they could if they wanted to though.
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We will see, the Southern has several thousand track kilometres of third rail electrified line you are looking at the thick end of £10Billion to convert the lot, about the same as crossrail 2.
Current costs for recent schemes are working out at £1.5k per track kilometre. The southern will be much more expensive to do for the following reasons:
1) Virtually all of the signalling uses AC track circuits so the whole region will need resignalling. They will also need to pay other railways such as DLR and the Bluebell Railway to modify/immunise their systems near interfacing areas.
2) Virtually none of the telecom cables or ex BR copper based telecomms transmissions systems are 25kV a.c. immunised (and later ones probably are not either) with different southern specific designs used on many of them. So lots of upgrade/replacement needed
3) Substandard loading gauge in places.
4) Little/cramped trackside access, especially in south London making task harder.
5) Need for the two electrification systems to operate in parallel during the changeover period which makes things even more complicated.
6) Very intensive service, so possessions difficult to get and expensive compensation payments to TOCs.
7) Numerous and very frequent points, junctions and crossing, making OHLE complex and expensive.
8) Hundreds if not thousands of low/arched overbridges and low footbridges will need replacement.
I find it hard to believe that this will cost less than replacing the innards of some older substations and providing some replacement high voltage cabling.
I suspect the treasury will find it hard to believe as well and they will need persuading now that NR is to be renationlised any day now and their capital spending will start counting towards the national debt.
Sorry I'm sticking with this:
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NotATrainspott
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I get the impression that standing in 1st Class with a Std ticket is often tolerated if the train is fullish. I would imagine that it is not very good for public relations to start prosecuting people standing in there on a full train.
AFAIR the conditions of carraige mean they could if they wanted to though.
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We will see, the Southern has several thousand track kilometres of third rail electrified line you are looking at the thick end of £10Billion to convert the lot, about the same as crossrail 2.
Current costs for recent schemes are working out at £1.5k per track kilometre. The southern will be much more expensive to do for the following reasons:
1) Virtually all of the signalling uses AC track circuits so the whole region will need resignalling. They will also need to pay other railways such as DLR and the Bluebell Railway to modify/immunise their systems near interfacing areas.
2) Virtually none of the telecom cables or ex BR copper based telecomms transmissions systems are 25kV a.c. immunised (and later ones probably are not either) with different southern specific designs used on many of them. So lots of upgrade/replacement needed
3) Substandard loading gauge in places.
4) Little/cramped trackside access, especially in south London making task harder.
5) Need for the two electrification systems to operate in parallel during the changeover period which makes things even more complicated.
6) Very intensive service, so possessions difficult to get and expensive compensation payments to TOCs.
7) Numerous and very frequent points, junctions and crossing, making OHLE complex and expensive.
8) Hundreds if not thousands of low/arched overbridges and low footbridges will need replacement.
I find it hard to believe that this will cost less than replacing the innards of some older substations and providing some replacement high voltage cabling.
I suspect the treasury will find it hard to believe as well and they will need persuading now that NR is to be renationlised any day now and their capital spending will start counting towards the national debt.
Sorry I'm sticking with this:
Electrification of the North and the mainlines is currently a higher priority but once you're left with lines like the Cumbrian or Durham Coast it makes sense to move most of the effort down there. The sections further out, where linespeeds are higher, the tracks are simpler and extra feeder stations are required will be the ones electrified first, leaving the central London sections where there are more interfaces with other lines to last. Any further infrastructure works will be done with the intention to move to AC in future, so the project cost of converting to AC will decrease over time as other renewals are done from a different budget.
I would agree that Pirbright Junction to Southampton Central/Redbridge with dual electrification from Pirbright station to Woking and St Denys to Redbridge, might conceivably make sense as it would allow a linespeed increase to 125mph and facilitate ac hauled intercities and freight on the Crosscountry route. Ideally it would be done at the same time as 25kV electrification and doubling of Salisbury Exeter but I don;t suppose that will happen any time soon.
It was strongly considered to do the Bournemouth Line electification with 25kV when it was done in the 1960s but they decided against it in the end.
The problem is that, other than that, there is nowhere else on the Southern (other than HS1) that there is really a case for going above 100mph (only parts of boat train route 1 and a short section of the Brighton Main line have 100mph now), the rest is 90 max in any case.
All of the outer areas had a major upgrade only a few years ago with many TP huts replaced with additional substations when the mark 1s were replaced with 37x trains, and most of the signalling/interlockings are fairly modern and won't be replaced for years. The part that needs doing first is the older installations in the London Suburban area where the conversion makes least sense and is most difficult. It would also need wholesale replacement of the suburban stock which is d.c. only and not like the 37x which can be modified to run on either.
In the meanwhile they need to extend the third rail to Uckfield and the missing gaps on the Reading Reigate line. I suspect that the current strategy means they wont get electified at all. Ashford Hastings makes sense to do as 25KV as it is principally an extension of HS1 which is already 25kV.
Finally, while I am not in a position to know what they are doing, I very much doubt that new signalling installations on the southern, other than in areas with both types of electification like City Thameslink and Ashford International are/will be compatible with a.c. electrification. To do that means making them compatible with both a.c. and d.c. electification which is complicated and very expensive. Visual indication that this is the case can be seen with the signals and their gantries which are not shielded to protect workers from 25kV a.c. (unlike the Midland main line where this has been done since the 1980s on the unelectrified sections north of Bedford.
Newer telecom installations are fibre not copper based for trunk cabling but local trackside cables will still be copper and, again, it would be very expensive to immunise them for a.c. electrification that may never happen. EMC matters are not cheap.
How they must wish that Sir Herbert Walker adopted the LBSCR 6.6kV overhead electification for the Southern instead of ripping it out and replacing it with the LSWR third rail!
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HSTEd
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Why would we even have trackside comms systems in modern installations?
Hasn't GSM-R pretty much killed that? (With the obvious exception of the signalling system itself - no need for signalpost phones now).
The rapidly reducing cost of fibre switches may soon lead to the concept of installing the fibre switch on the controlled signal/points motor/axle counter itself. Work on that is already under way in Japan.
Hasn't GSM-R pretty much killed that? (With the obvious exception of the signalling system itself - no need for signalpost phones now).
The rapidly reducing cost of fibre switches may soon lead to the concept of installing the fibre switch on the controlled signal/points motor/axle counter itself. Work on that is already under way in Japan.
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