Halton Curve upgrade is on

[Wavertreelad]

Where do you think Merseytravel will find the money to fund a new service from 2017?
Why should it take precedence over all the other service development issues in the North which are the subject of the new franchise?
You only have to look at the new Todmorden-Burnley service to see where the problems are, even when the infrastructure is complete.
My guess is it will be the December ITT before anything more definite will emerge, and that won't be final until a new franchise contract is issued for Northern.

Having said that, there might be some low-cost mileage in utilising the Ellesmere Port-Helsby unit which sits idle somewhere (Lime St?) in the off peak.

Actually I didn't say Merseytravel would fund a new service from 2017, rather the link could be completed by 2017 as the funding has been approved. I'd totally agree there is potentially a Todmorden Curve situation here and plenty of other obstacles as well. If I remember correctly Merseytravel are due to update/report to the Liverpool City Region meeting to be held next month when further details of the plan will be publically revealed. Presumably the plans and priorities would then need to be approved by the Authority members to allow it to canvass any additional funds from the Government and/or EU etc. Then there is December ITT and question of Northern franchise and whether it, Arriva Trains Wales, or even Merseyrail operate the service. If Merseyrail is to operate the service, then presumably it would want to use electric stock, which then means the line needs to be electrified so I guess at best we are looking at 2018 and probably later. Then there is the stock, would Merseyrail operate 319's, 313, or whatever is available or wait for their newbuilds to be available assuming that the rolling stock is decided upon, and ordered, in which case we are probably in 2019 if not 2020.

To be honest if the curve is completed by 2017 and electrification is still some years away, then I could see a couple of 142's being used to start getting bums on seats as hopefully by then Northern may have a couple spare, but that's another story entirely. And all that is before we consider the fact that next May we will have a General Election and the political landscape could all change again.

 

[frodshamfella]

Where do you think Merseytravel will find the money to fund a new service from 2017?
Why should it take precedence over all the other service development issues in the North which are the subject of the new franchise?
You only have to look at the new Todmorden-Burnley service to see where the problems are, even when the infrastructure is complete.
My guess is it will be the December ITT before anything more definite will emerge, and that won't be final until a new franchise contract is issued for Northern.

Having said that, there might be some low-cost mileage in utilising the Ellesmere Port-Helsby unit which sits idle somewhere (Lime St?) in the off peak.

I wouldn't say Merseytravel is getting any precedence, the Halton Curve is a great and much needed boost to the travelling public in Mersey, Cheshire, North Wales areas. Its about time something is happening at last in this region there has been no rail infrastructure spend for donkeys years, it is well over due.

 

[8A Rail]

Having said that, there might be some low-cost mileage in utilising the Ellesmere Port-Helsby unit which sits idle somewhere (Lime St?) in the off peak.

It does ECS Liverpool LS to Chester (5D39), then I think a Unit swap with another then its ECS Chester to Helsby (5F14) to do the Ellesmere Port run, before it travels to Warrington BQ (2F17) before its ECS to Lime St. The morning run is WBQ-E/P-Helsby-E/P-WBQ with ECS (I think) from/to Lime St. HTH.

Some members mentioned that people will still go to Chester via Merseyrail - but why? It is only those on the Wirral that will continue to use it. The Halton Curve would be useful for people especially those in South Liverpool (Sefton Park/Mossely Hill/ Allerton/Garston/Speke) to get to Chester and beyond. I live in Whiston and either way, I personally not sure I would use it as away to avoid the tolls on the two bridges as still means need to travel to a station such as LSP to get a train which take me about 20/25 minutes to get too - this would also apply to other people too from similar area's (in fact its easier / quicker to go to Runcorn Station but cant use it because of tolls on the bridge!!). Therefore the issue also becomes the 'time" factor in how long you get to get from A to B which will also dictate passenger numbers. In fact it would be far easier if the present LV-WBQ train carried on to Chester as I think people would use it, me included especially with the tolls on the two bridges coming into place.

(As things stand at the moment, I live just outside the Halton Borough area so I will get penalised to use the two bridges although I probably live closer to them than some of the residents in Halton BC! My present inclinations is I wont bother going south of the Mersey to the Wirral and parts of North Cheshire as I just go somewhere else (north / east). Unfortunately, the powers to be are actually putting in an invisible barrier seperating the Wirral / North Cheshire from Merseyside (& vice versa) as all four crossings will be tolled - where else in the UK that happens? Its crazy but I'm sure some people will think that is a good thing! )

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It does ECS Liverpool LS to Chester (5D39), then I think a Unit swap with another then its ECS Chester to Helsby (5F14) to do the Ellesmere Port run, before it travels to Warrington BQ (2F17) before its ECS to Lime St. The morning run is WBQ-E/P-Helsby-E/P-WBQ with ECS (I think) from/to Lime St. HTH.

Must be one of the most useless workings in the book...
Be interesting what happens to it after 319s take over Liverpool-WBQ.

 

[Swirlz]

Some members mentioned that people will still go to Chester via Merseyrail - but why? I]

Erm maybe this:

Saveaway - £4.90 (off peak) or;
SDR Liverpool-Chester via Birkenhead £6.95

SDR Liverpool-Chester (Any Permitted) £11.40

Even if the operator introduces a "via Runcorn" ticket, it is still going to be more expensive as the route is going well outside of the Mersey PTE boundary.

Nobody is going to pay an extra £5 (aprox), which is why this route is not about "local" journeys.

The other thing to note is that Liverpool-Chester (during the off peak periods) is calculated to have approximately 65% of passengers travelling with free Merseytravel concessionary passes. The other 30% are a mix of Prepaid PTE tickets, Merseyrail specific tickets and railcard discounted singles/returns which are cheaper than the other PTE/TOC products. The final 5% are those travelling with through tickets to further afield.

So essentially 95% of the current passengers in the off peak period CANNOT migrate to a new Liverpool-Chester via Runcorn service without incurring cost increases, some of which will be significant.

It's about integrating Liverpool/Airport into longer distance flows, from places like North/South Wales.

 

[6Gman]

Sorry I dont agree, if you are in Liverpool and can get a direct train to North Wales and not change in Chester, then why would you. The Chester service is good, but often busy, changing in Chester over a direct service is just another hassle.

The new route is going via south Liverpool at Runcorn, is a different market than Merseyrail via Wirral. If you live on the Wirral side fine, but not otherwise. Plenty from South Liverpool which is a big residential area would use a direct service to Chester as well, I think few would back track via Central and on Wirral line, they would just drive, and everyone from this neck of the wood know's what Runcorn Bridge and parking in Chester is like !

It's right the curve should be reopened, North Wales should be connected to Liverpool directly as it is to Manchester.

But will Liverpool trains run west of Chester? I suspect not. There are already 2tph west of Chester (3tph at times). Who will fund a third train? The North Wales - South Wales/ Birmingham seems politically sacrosanct. The North Wales - Manchester is established and well-used. Would people in North Wales want to lose one of these for a Liverpool service?

My suspicion is that the Halton Curve will see an hourly Liverpool - Chester (and possibly Wrexham) Class 150. Which will be useful, but hardly transformative!

 

[berneyarms]

It does ECS Liverpool LS to Chester (5D39), then I think a Unit swap with another then its ECS Chester to Helsby (5F14) to do the Ellesmere Port run, before it travels to Warrington BQ (2F17) before its ECS to Lime St. The morning run is WBQ-E/P-Helsby-E/P-WBQ with ECS (I think) from/to Lime St. HTH.

Following the train on RTT I don't think the morning run is quite right.

In the mornings it appears to be:
05:13 ECS Liverpool Lime Street - Warrington BQ
05:49 Warrington BQ - Ellesmere Port
06:19 Ellesmere Port - Helsby
06:33 Helsby - Ellesmere Port
06:53 Ellesmere Port - Warrington BQ
07:24 ECS Warrington BQ - Wigan North Western
07:58 Wigan North Western - Liverpool Lime St
08:55 Liverpool Lime St - Manchester Oxford Rd
10:16 Manchester Oxford Rd - Liverpool Lime St

Then the set lays over in Lime Street from 11:24 until 13:42.

 

[8A Rail]

Following the train on RTT I don't think the morning run is quite right.
In the mornings it appears to be:
05:13 ECS Liverpool Lime Street - Warrington BQ
05:49 Warrington BQ - Ellesmere Port
06:19 Ellesmere Port - Helsby
06:33 Helsby - Ellesmere Port
06:53 Ellesmere Port - Warrington BQ
07:24 ECS Warrington BQ - Wigan North Western
07:58 Wigan North Western - Liverpool Lime St
08:55 Liverpool Lime St - Manchester Oxford Rd
10:16 Manchester Oxford Rd - Liverpool Lime St
Then the set lays over in Lime Street from 11:24 until 13:42.

I did not say it was, just generalising the DMU working especially as far as the topic of the thread was concerned. Thanks for the RTT clarification.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But will Liverpool trains run west of Chester? I suspect not. There are already 2tph west of Chester (3tph at times). Who will fund a third train? The North Wales - South Wales/ Birmingham seems politically sacrosanct. The North Wales - Manchester is established and well-used. Would people in North Wales want to lose one of these for a Liverpool service?

My suspicion is that the Halton Curve will see an hourly Liverpool - Chester (and possibly Wrexham) Class 150. Which will be useful, but hardly transformative!

I think North Wales people would be happy to swap a Manchester train(s) for Liverpool train(s) - North Wales (including Wrexham area) people have more affinity with Liverpool than Manchester.

As some other members have mentioned including myself, costs does come into it and unless the trains that will use the Halton Curve go further afield than Chester (without changing) then there is no obvious benefit to the area as a whole. If it is all about getting more people to Chester (& vice versa) then better spending the money on a direct service between Lime St to Chester via WBQ, it has afterall a bigger catchment area using that route even if it is a limited stop train using e.g. Broadgreen, Huyton, Rainhill, St Helens Junc, Earlestown, WBQ and all stations to Chester. With this in mind, this is why I think Halton Junc is being upgraded, it is for trains going further than Chester.

 

[6Gman]

I think North Wales people would be happy to swap a Manchester train(s) for Liverpool train(s) - North Wales (including Wrexham area) people have more affinity with Liverpool than Manchester.

Good luck with that one!

 

[Wavertreelad]

Some members mentioned that people will still go to Chester via Merseyrail - but why? It is only those on the Wirral that will continue to use it. The Halton Curve would be useful for people especially those in South Liverpool (Sefton Park/Mossely Hill/ Allerton/Garston/Speke) to get to Chester and beyond. I live in Whiston and either way, I personally not sure I would use it as away to avoid the tolls on the two bridges as still means need to travel to a station such as LSP to get a train which take me about 20/25 minutes to get too - this would also apply to other people too from similar area's (in fact its easier / quicker to go to Runcorn Station but cant use it because of tolls on the bridge!!). Therefore the issue also becomes the 'time" factor in how long you get to get from A to B which will also dictate passenger numbers. In fact it would be far easier if the present LV-WBQ train carried on to Chester as I think people would use it, me included especially with the tolls on the two bridges coming into place. )[/I]

I suspect it will all be a question of travelling time and/or convenience coupled to frequency of service. For example from Wavertree Tech Station is ten minutes give or take to Lime Street, but the location of Wavertree Tech makes is not that it borders parts of Edge Hill and Old Swan but a good ten minutes walk at least from Picton Road on which there are 79 buses every 5 minutes. However, the bus to Lime Street from Wavertree Clock takes 20 minutes and more in peak and the fair is nearly double the train journey, assuming a return rail ticket is purchased. From Sefton Park, there is no rail alternative, so it's a 20/25 minute bus journey to Lime Street to catch the train via either route. However, a stopper all stations Lime Street to Chester via Runcorn would likely be much quicker for passengers boarding from Allerton and beyond than travelling back into Liverpool by bus then train via the Wirral to which the convenience of avoiding changes or train etc can be added. With Halton now included in the Greater Liverpool Authority, I suspect that once a service via the Halton Curve is established Merseytravel fares will be applied which could result in some reductions.

(As things stand at the moment, I live just outside the Halton Borough area so I will get penalised to use the two bridges although I probably live closer to them than some of the residents in Halton BC! My present inclinations is I wont bother going south of the Mersey to the Wirral and parts of North Cheshire as I just go somewhere else (north / east). Unfortunately, the powers to be are actually putting in an invisible barrier seperating the Wirral / North Cheshire from Merseyside (& vice versa) as all four crossings will be tolled - where else in the UK that happens? Its crazy but I'm sure some people will think that is a good thing! )

Totally agree, tolling all four crossing is scandalous especially as I believe the Mersey Tunnel actually makes an operating profit, and the tolls help pay off the debt and contribute to the subsidising fares on buses, trains and the ferries.

One thing Merseytravel will need to address is the car parking situation at it's stations on Liverpool side of the river, particularly at LSP. I believe the car park is often full most working days. whilst a Wavertree Tech were there is virtually no car parking the local roads are often congested with parked cars using the station for park and ride - Manchester Airport trains are very popular for this.

 

[childwallblues]

Actually I didn't say Merseytravel would fund a new service from 2017, rather the link could be completed by 2017 as the funding has been approved. I'd totally agree there is potentially a Todmorden Curve situation here and plenty of other obstacles as well. If I remember correctly Merseytravel are due to update/report to the Liverpool City Region meeting to be held next month when further details of the plan will be publically revealed. Presumably the plans and priorities would then need to be approved by the Authority members to allow it to canvass any additional funds from the Government and/or EU etc. Then there is December ITT and question of Northern franchise and whether it, Arriva Trains Wales, or even Merseyrail operate the service. If Merseyrail is to operate the service, then presumably it would want to use electric stock, which then means the line needs to be electrified so I guess at best we are looking at 2018 and probably later. Then there is the stock, would Merseyrail operate 319's, 313, or whatever is available or wait for their newbuilds to be available assuming that the rolling stock is decided upon, and ordered, in which case we are probably in 2019 if not 2020.

To be honest if the curve is completed by 2017 and electrification is still some years away, then I could see a couple of 142's being used to start getting bums on seats as hopefully by then Northern may have a couple spare, but that's another story entirely. And all that is before we consider the fact that next May we will have a General Election and the political landscape could all change again.

142s are currently not allowed on the Halton Chord.

 

[Swirlz]

, I suspect that once a service via the Halton Curve is established Merseytravel fares will be applied which could result in some reductions.

This just isn't going to happen.

The fares are going to have to exceed the London Midland set Liverpool-Runcorn fares, £6.30 off peak / £8.20 peak.

Even Frodsham-Chester is £5.70 off peak / £7.20 peak.

As so much is outside the Saveaway/PTE area, the fares are going to remain at the level they currently are set at.

There's no way Merseytravel (or the other operators) are going to let the PTE products be extended to Runcorn or beyond.

I also don't think any future operator is going to want so much of the capacity taken up by people on tickets which generate no or very little revenue, (concessionary passes/PTE tickets), when the service is already going to be operating with limited capacity/frequency.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This just isn't going to happen.
There's no way Merseytravel (or the other operators) are going to let the PTE products be extended to Runcorn or beyond.

This is one of many things "Rail North" is supposed to address.
It will take a long time to work out, 10 years plus maybe.
We will probably end up with a very large zonal fares system covering all the PTEs, like NRW (North Rhine Westphalia) or the Netherlands (OV-Chipkaart).
"1North" points the way.

 

[frodshamfella]

But will Liverpool trains run west of Chester? I suspect not. There are already 2tph west of Chester (3tph at times). Who will fund a third train? The North Wales - South Wales/ Birmingham seems politically sacrosanct. The North Wales - Manchester is established and well-used. Would people in North Wales want to lose one of these for a Liverpool service?

My suspicion is that the Halton Curve will see an hourly Liverpool - Chester (and possibly Wrexham) Class 150. Which will be useful, but hardly transformative!

I understood Arriva Train Wales had designs to run direct from North Wales to Liverpool. There is only one train an hour from North Wales to Manchester anyway (normally standing only) so an extra doing a similar route but linking Liverpool City ( and parkway for Airport) would be great. Surely its all guess work a moment what service would be offered via Halton Curve, its just too far ahead to know.

 

[Philip C]

I understood Arriva Train Wales had designs to run direct from North Wales to Liverpool. There is only one train an hour from North Wales to Manchester anyway (normally standing only) so an extra doing a similar route but linking Liverpool City ( and parkway for Airport) would be great. Surely its all guess work a moment what service would be offered via Halton Curve, its just too far ahead to know.

This does depend on exactly what you mean by 'know'. I assume that someone has put a 'Business Case' together to justify the project's position within an 'Investment Programme'. This requires an appreciation of the revenue generated. I find it hard to believe that this generated revenue is independent of some sort of plan for service provision which, in turn, feeds back into the Business Case by guiding a view as to operating costs. It may be that we are currently in ignorance of what that notional service might be and that this might not, in any case, be the service ultimately provided. Does anyone 'know' what service pattern underlies this investment or are we indeed writing about a project based on a political gesture rather than a proper evaluation?

Speculation is, however, one of the 'Spices of this Forum' and for my two-pennyworth I don't see much of a traffic, without projection beyond Chester, for this route to Liverpool and much of that would simply be extracted from the Wirral Line route. Whether traffic to the ill-served Liverpool Airport could stand-up against a decent coach service I rather doubt. Am I right in understanding that there are no direct coach services from Liverpool Airport to Frodsham, Chester or North Wales at the present time? If so this hardly indicates a massive latent traffic.

What seems to be ignored by those who assert the greater allegiance of the North Walian to Liverpool rather than to Manchester is that services to the latter also cater for those travelling on into Yorkshire and far beyond. It is not without reason that trains from North Wales, on reaching Earlestown, turn east rather than west. Successive railway managers seem to have come to the same decision and I detect little sign that the balance of demand is anywhere near a tipping point. My conclusion is that trains on the Halton Curve will be of a local nature for the foreseeable future. I am sure that they will be appreciated by some.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Whether traffic to the ill-served Liverpool Airport could stand-up against a decent coach service I rather doubt. Am I right in understanding that there are no direct coach services from Liverpool Airport to Frodsham, Chester or North Wales at the present time? If so this hardly indicates a massive latent traffic.

There's traffic from Chester/North Wales through Liverpool Airport, but Manchester remains the airport of choice with a much wider range of destinations, particularly on more business-oriented routes.
Geographically Liverpool Airport is no nearer than Manchester from Chester, once you have negotiated the bridge at Runcorn or the tunnel at Birkenhead.

 

[frodshamfella]

This does depend on exactly what you mean by 'know'. I assume that someone has put a 'Business Case' together to justify the project's position within an 'Investment Programme'. This requires an appreciation of the revenue generated. I find it hard to believe that this generated revenue is independent of some sort of plan for service provision which, in turn, feeds back into the Business Case by guiding a view as to operating costs. It may be that we are currently in ignorance of what that notional service might be and that this might not, in any case, be the service ultimately provided. Does anyone 'know' what service pattern underlies this investment or are we indeed writing about a project based on a political gesture rather than a proper evaluation?

Speculation is, however, one of the 'Spices of this Forum' and for my two-pennyworth I don't see much of a traffic, without projection beyond Chester, for this route to Liverpool and much of that would simply be extracted from the Wirral Line route. Whether traffic to the ill-served Liverpool Airport could stand-up against a decent coach service I rather doubt. Am I right in understanding that there are no direct coach services from Liverpool Airport to Frodsham, Chester or North Wales at the present time? If so this hardly indicates a massive latent traffic.

What seems to be ignored by those who assert the greater allegiance of the North Walian to Liverpool rather than to Manchester is that services to the latter also cater for those travelling on into Yorkshire and far beyond. It is not without reason that trains from North Wales, on reaching Earlestown, turn east rather than west. Successive railway managers seem to have come to the same decision and I detect little sign that the balance of demand is anywhere near a tipping point. My conclusion is that trains on the Halton Curve will be of a local nature for the foreseeable future. I am sure that they will be appreciated by some.

I think the curve will be appreciated by many. Your right to say no coach from Chester Helsby or Frodsham to Liverpool Airport or Liverpool City and there isn't to Manchester City or Airport either. However I think demand from Cheshire and North Wales to Liverpool City and Airport is sizeable, and with improved access by rail will naturally grow. Liverpool City has a big draw from those area for shopping and entertainment, theatre concerts etc, the excursion coaches from North Wales parked outside the Empire Theatre is evidence enough for that.

 

[6Gman]

Surely its all guess work a moment what service would be offered via Halton Curve, its just too far ahead to know.

My point is that it's hard to justify the considerable capital expenditure (and probable future necessary revenue support) without knowing the purpose i.e. what services it will support.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Liverpool City has a big draw from those area for shopping and entertainment, theatre concerts etc, the excursion coaches from North Wales parked outside the Empire Theatre is evidence enough for that.

A through train service is unlikley to take much of the coach traffic that heads from North Wales to Liverpool at the weekends.
This is made up of shopping trips, theatre trips or football traffic. People with shopping would stick with the coach that takes them from their own area or village to the city centre and back. People going to the theatres usually get inclusive coach and theatre ticket travel. Those travelling to the football are dropped off and picked up close to the ground.
Even if a fraction of this traffic were to use a through service I doubt the envisaged hourly 2 car DMU would be able to cope.

 

[Philip C]

I think the curve will be appreciated by many. Your right to say no coach from Chester Helsby or Frodsham to Liverpool Airport or Liverpool City and there isn't to Manchester City or Airport either. However I think demand from Cheshire and North Wales to Liverpool City and Airport is sizeable, and with improved access by rail will naturally grow. Liverpool City has a big draw from those area for shopping and entertainment, theatre concerts etc, the excursion coaches from North Wales parked outside the Empire Theatre is evidence enough for that.

I'm sure that there will be some who benefit from whatever service ultimately uses the Halton Curve but doubt that this will constitute enough to prise the North Wales trains away from the right turn at Earlestown and the wide range of connections that await in Manchester. There would also be the potential nonsense of passengers from North Wales having to change at Chester and at Warrington to access trains to Wigan, Preston and beyond.

For your information there are three National Express coaches per day from Chester to Manchester Airport with one of these running through from Wrexham (Route 381). This is not of any importance though, as it is the absence of any to Liverpool Airport which is indicative of just how thin pickings may be for the new service at Liverpool South Parkway. I may be wrong but doubt that the benefits will be more than local and fairly minor in scale.

I do not doubt that The Liverpool Empire attracts theatre-goers from far and wide and that this is indicative of a wider appeal of the city centre. I do point out that there is but one daily direct coach from North Wales (Rhyl etc.) to Liverpool and that any future rail service via the Halton Curve would have to compete with the frequent Wirral Line connections from Chester which go directly to a wider range of Liverpool's central attractions than can easily be accessed from Lime Street.

Without through trains from North Wales connection at Chester might as well be into Wirral Line services as into a relatively infrequent (surely!) Halton Curve service. The relatively massive demand for travel from North Wales to Manchester (and the many places beyond) makes through services to Liverpool unlikely unless additional trains run along the coast. The highest priority for these is probably for more through services to Crewe and London. The other option of dividing trains at Chester would defeat the object of having faster services into Liverpool. I'm sorry but I cannot see this service as being more than local in nature; that is not to say that it will not be of value to some.

Had the 'promise' not already been made I would have thought good connections at Earlestown back into Liverpool would have 'done the job'.

 

[frodshamfella]

My point is that it's hard to justify the considerable capital expenditure (and probable future necessary revenue support) without knowing the purpose i.e. what services it will support.

Well the support appears to be there from locals (like me who will use such a service) and various other local government bodies in Merseyside, Cheshire and North Wales, therefore they must believe, and central government must agree that there is support/demand.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A through train service is unlikley to take much of the coach traffic that heads from North Wales to Liverpool at the weekends.
This is made up of shopping trips, theatre trips or football traffic. People with shopping would stick with the coach that takes them from their own area or village to the city centre and back. People going to the theatres usually get inclusive coach and theatre ticket travel. Those travelling to the football are dropped off and picked up close to the ground.
Even if a fraction of this traffic were to use a through service I doubt the envisaged hourly 2 car DMU would be able to cope.

Some may prefer to use coaches, but others like freedom of not being tied to a coach package, that a train service would offer. I meet friends from Manchester who come to LIverpool to go to RLPO, we often have a meal before or after the concert, folk like that would not want to stuck to what a coach dictates.

 

[8A Rail]

I'm sure that there will be some who benefit from whatever service ultimately uses the Halton Curve but doubt that this will constitute enough to prise the North Wales trains away from the right turn at Earlestown and the wide range of connections that await in Manchester. There would also be the potential nonsense of passengers from North Wales having to change at Chester and at Warrington to access trains to Wigan, Preston and beyond.

Assuming I've read the above correctly, passengers have got to change at Warrington if they wish to go anywhere else other than Manchester at this moment in time anyway. Likewise I doubt it will prise trains away from Manchester but I think you will find one/two will do unless they have extra trains to cover the new service?

For your information there are three National Express coaches per day from Chester to Manchester Airport with one of these running through from Wrexham (Route 381). This is not of any importance though, as it is the absence of any to Liverpool Airport which is indicative of just how thin pickings may be for the new service at Liverpool South Parkway. I may be wrong but doubt that the benefits will be more than local and fairly minor in scale.

Too much emphasis is being put on Liverpool JL Airport / LSP Station for the North Wales Coast as that is NOT the attraction for a new service using the Halton Curve, its actually the City of Liverpool and its numerous various visitor attractions (& vice versa to NW Coast / Wrexham & beyond?). The Airport / LSP may benefit in a very small way. Also remember Manchester Airport is far far bigger than LJL Airport because its serves the world (well almost), so will never complete.

I do not doubt that The Liverpool Empire attracts theatre-goers from far and wide and that this is indicative of a wider appeal of the city centre. I do point out that there is but one daily direct coach from North Wales (Rhyl etc.) to Liverpool and that any future rail service via the Halton Curve would have to compete with the frequent Wirral Line connections from Chester which go directly to a wider range of Liverpool's central attractions than can easily be accessed from Lime Street.

True BUT who why would people using a new service from/to North Wales Coast want to change at Chester (for Wirral Line) when the train could direct into Liverpool using the Halton Curve - no need to change trains is a big plus to be honest.

Without through trains from North Wales connection at Chester might as well be into Wirral Line services as into a relatively infrequent (surely!) Halton Curve service. The relatively massive demand for travel from North Wales to Manchester (and the many places beyond) makes through services to Liverpool unlikely unless additional trains run along the coast. The highest priority for these is probably for more through services to Crewe and London. The other option of dividing trains at Chester would defeat the object of having faster services into Liverpool. I'm sorry but I cannot see this service as being more than local in nature; that is not to say that it will not be of value to some.

If we take your view, then the trains wont survive because relying on locals to keep it going on their own wont do it - again the Halton Curve is being done to access further afield beyond Chester. It has always been the basis of the local authorities arguments to have the dual way line re-instated.

Had the 'promise' not already been made I would have thought good connections at Earlestown back into Liverpool would have 'done the job'

Simply no and you have already stated the reasons above why that would not happen - Chester (& Wirral Line).

Reading the general views in this thread, there is a spilt on why the Halton Curve is being done and comes down to two schools of thought 1) It is for local trains only - Chester being final destination OR 2) It is for destinations to North Wales Coast and Wrexham (& beyond). I am firmly in the latter camp.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Reading the general views in this thread, there is a spilt on why the Halton Curve is being done and comes down to two schools of thought 1) It is for local trains only - Chester being final destination OR 2) It is for destinations to North Wales Coast and Wrexham (& beyond). I am firmly in the latter camp.

Interesting to see the two views emerging, personally I could see the route being used for both types of passenger service. However, whilst I can understand why the funding for the scheme has been approved, I find it a bit puzzling that no public comment has been made of the type of service envisaged to use the line to justify the amount of public funds being committed to the project, which even more puzzling is considering at the moment there are no plans to electrify the route. Yes OK, any service could be operated by displaced 150/156's etc but this could only be an interim arrangement until electrification to Chester is completed as part of the wider North West scheme. It's going to take a lot bums on seats to pay for a 2 car 150/156 service to recover the cost of the scheme and a 1 tph local service is probably never going to achieve this so there has to be another reason. The only conclusion that therefore springs to mind is freight, as this would also then explain the deafening silence as far as official announcements of proposed passenger services.

 

[edwin_m]

I would have thought Liverpool to North Wales was too short a distance for rail freight, and Liverpool to South Wales would suffer from capacity problems on Chester-Wrexham as well as lack of gauge enhancement.

I also tend to think the service needs to go beyond Chester, since Chester-Liverpool already has a frequent service and the only major destination served by the new route is Liverpool Airport. Actually of course it isn't served directly, so I think many from Chester would just drive to the airport - and if there was lots of demand there would probably be a frequent coach service from Chester to the Airport already.

Continuing into North Wales has the advantage of providing direct service to Liverpool from places that don't have it today. Airport journeys from further away are relatively less disadvantaged by the need for bus connections, though I'm still unsure how big that market would be. Wrexham or beyond seems the most obvious choice to me, with a two-hourly Cardiff opening up quite a few new longer-distance possibilities - but exploiting them probably requires something a bit more comfortable than a 150!

 

[frodshamfella]

I understood the Welsh assembly were a major back of the Halton Curve upgrade to improve access to Liverpool and Airport, therefore is not reasonable to expect the proposed service to run beyond Chester ?

With respect to use of Liverpool Airport & LSP from the wider area, its true to say John Lennon is not another Manchester, but then again it is not an insignificant operation with an odd flight on a summer Sunday. Over four million passengers used it last year, and after a dip in growth in recent years, that growth is returning once more. I think its fair to say with air travel in the UK expected to grow, so will demand of this facility and use of LSP. Surely this is a good thing to get people out of their cars and onto rail to reach airports.

I travelled to Liverpool Airport from Acton Bridge recently via LSP, I purchased a combined rail/bus ticket, found it very easy, likely wont drive again.

 

[8A Rail]

The only conclusion that therefore springs to mind is freight, as this would also then explain the deafening silence as far as official announcements of proposed passenger services.

As things stand and also looking towards the future, I'm not sure there is any freight traffic to be had using this line - there is almost nothing to/from North Wales as for potential freight - the only that springs to mind is very occasional stone train (ballast). Going via Wrexham could be easier for freight to / from South Wales but you still have the bottle neck north of Wrexham were there still be single line working which will limit paths. Having said that, the only freight could be a possible "liner" operation to / from Garston & Ditton to / from South Wales and that would also depend who is operating it. If its Freightliner they still go via Crewe as it is their hub of operations to swap & change.

Yes I am sure the curve wil get used by freight but mainly for diversionery reasons more than anything else.

 

[frodshamfella]

Do you think the new Liverpool superport will take freight from Wales via the curve..? Separately I know there has been
News items with concerned about rail access to it with a view to an extended HS3 Liverpool to Hull. .if that doesn't come off loads more HGVs to Liverpool docks

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Do you think the new Liverpool superport will take freight from Wales via the curve..? Separately I know there has been
News items with concerned about rail access to it with a view to an extended HS3 Liverpool to Hull. .if that doesn't come off loads more HGVs to Liverpool docks

What freight from Wales?
What little there is is heading for the WCML.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Some more local interest.
http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/news/local-news/ellesmere-port--justin-madders-7574419
Supposing this was viable, who would operate it?

 

[Holly]

... Reading the general views in this thread, there is a spilt on why the Halton Curve is being done and comes down to two schools of thought 1) It is for local trains only - Chester being final destination OR 2) It is for destinations to North Wales Coast and Wrexham (& beyond). I am firmly in the latter camp.

There is also a need for an improved frequency Lime Street - Runcorn service.
But Runcorn station is pretty unsuitable as a turnback location for an extra service.
One extra train per hour, optimally timed, making four in total, would reduce the longest daytime wait from 30 minutes to 20 minutes with an average of 8 minutes. And without any other rescheduling.