Short High Speed Sets

[HSTEd]

So while I am often advocating 400m long double deck trains, I also advocate constructing a skeleton of Shinkansen esque new railways around the HS2 spine.
The 'local' services on these lines, at least in the beginning, will certainly not require 1352 passenger trainsets, so I maintain an active observance of various places to determine what the shortest trainsets available are in the marketplace.

For a long time this has been the AGV-7 at 133m.
I have now discovered the CAF OARIS - which is available in 4 car formations - these have a length of approximately 103m.

While it only has 50% of axles motored, hardly perfect for Shinkansen operation it has buckets and buckets of power, I put it at 5280kW for the 4-car formation - which is plain silly.

So in essence, my shinkansen operation can get away with stations in small towns since it won't have to use big trains

This might become especially important as the high speed network expands - and thought some people might be interested as the minimum length of trains gets ever smaller.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Probably more important is that classic-compatibles could be delivered in this length, as that would enable classic-compatible services to go absolutely anywhere and not be carrying around fresh air. A 200m CC is still a long, high capacity train and since that's the minimum length specified for HS2 it makes services to smaller places much less likely. Even places like Aberdeen and Inverness could justify hourly or two-hourly services to London if you could do this and join up to another 200m set once there is a TSI-compliant route to Glasgow and Edinburgh. It's unlikely that each set would be running alone on a a high speed route so it may be possible to give them one blunt and one pointed end so they combine to form a relatively standard 200m set.

 

[Yew]

It's unlikely that each set would be running alone on a a high speed route so it may be possible to give them one blunt and one pointed end so they combine to form a relatively standard 200m set.

I have been considering this type of operation, and from what I can see, the problem would be with ensuring the sets where maintained the correct way around to join correctly, and what to do if one set is delayed, meaning a train would have to take on HS2 blunt end first.

However, I am sure these problems could be avoided, and if not, the train could still run to the HS2 station, and passangers either change to a 'mainline HS2' service, or the set(s) be shunted to get them the right way around.

 

[HSTEd]

It is worth noting that while the nominal length of HS2 trains is to be fixed at less than 400m, the length of the platforms is actually set at 415m minimum.

That means that 4 of these sets would only be 412m long - allowing four to operate in company.

 

[edwin_m]

Short sets only make sense if they can be coupled together for the busy sections - one reason why the platforms are longer than 400m is so a second set can stop short of the first one before coupling. I'm not sure whether there would be a problem with the pantographs being too close together when coupled short sets are running at high speed. I don't think anybody has tried sending a 25kV feeder over an autocoupler.

 

[HSTEd]

Well if you are on my proposed Highland Shinkansen on the stopper service Inverness to Edinburgh it might not be necessary to have longer trains :P .
Especially at 2 trains per hour.

 

[Taunton]

The French seem to have developed the concept of joining two TGVs into a single train at a journey midpoint rapidly and without giving a technical issue 50% of the time, items which in recent years have defeated the UK train supply industry on new-build stock (the old Southern Region never had such issues either). However we digress. What is surely needed is such flexible sets, rather than the "Channel Tunnel Big Train" approach, that can provide widespread service to medium-demand places, and then join up to a full-length train on the full-up tracks going onward to London.

 

[455driver]

The French seem to have developed the concept of joining two TGVs into a single train at a journey midpoint rapidly and without giving a technical issue 50% of the time, items which in recent years have defeated the UK train supply industry on new-build stock (the old Southern Region never had such issues either).

Yeah its not like SWT/ EMT/ Southern/ South Eastern etc do it many times every single day is it! :roll:

 

[edwin_m]

The French seem to have developed the concept of joining two TGVs into a single train at a journey midpoint rapidly and without giving a technical issue 50% of the time, items which in recent years have defeated the UK train supply industry on new-build stock (the old Southern Region never had such issues either). However we digress. What is surely needed is such flexible sets, rather than the "Channel Tunnel Big Train" approach, that can provide widespread service to medium-demand places, and then join up to a full-length train on the full-up tracks going onward to London.

That's exactly what is proposed for HS2. Both the captive and the classic compatible sets are planned to be 200m long, same as the TGVs, and able to run in coupled pairs. Eurostar didn't do this because there was a safety requirement at the time to be able to evacuate the passengers through the train into one half and then separate the halves, so one end of each half-set has to be flat with a gangway and hence they can only run in coupled pairs.

 

[Altnabreac]

The French seem to have developed the concept of joining two TGVs into a single train at a journey midpoint rapidly and without giving a technical issue 50% of the time, items which in recent years have defeated the UK train supply industry on new-build stock (the old Southern Region never had such issues either). However we digress. What is surely needed is such flexible sets, rather than the "Channel Tunnel Big Train" approach, that can provide widespread service to medium-demand places, and then join up to a full-length train on the full-up tracks going onward to London.

As others have said at present HS2 plan at least 3 High Speed trains per hour splitting and joining.

2tph from Edinburgh and Glasgow - London joining at Carstairs.
1tph from Liverpool and Birmingham - London joining at Birmingham Interchange.

Personally I doubt either of these will run like that but I'm sure splitting and joining will be important.

A more likely set of splits come Phase 2 are something like:

2tph from Edinburgh / Glasgow - London joining at Carlisle.
1tph from Liverpool via Runcorn / Preston via Wigan, Warrington joining at Crewe.
1tph from Manchester via Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke / Chester via Crewe joining at Stafford.
1tph from Leeds via Wakefield / Hull via Doncaster joining at Sheffield then running onto HS2 either at Killamarsh or Toton.

Logic is that Scottish services will be better splitting somewhere that actually generates traffic and Carlisle deserves fast services to London.

I also think it's better to split/join the NW services off the high speed network itself to avoid using capacity at the busy Birmingham Interchange.

Services like this will allow HS2 to serve many more provincial desinations without using precious London capacity for too many 200m trains.

Preston and Leeds trains can extend to Lancaster, Blackpool, Bradford and Harrogate to provide even more direct connections. None of these places are going to justify hourly 400m trains but bi-hourly 200m trains will be perfect for them.

 

[Aictos]

I have been considering this type of operation, and from what I can see, the problem would be with ensuring the sets where maintained the correct way around to join correctly, and what to do if one set is delayed, meaning a train would have to take on HS2 blunt end first.

However, I am sure these problems could be avoided, and if not, the train could still run to the HS2 station, and passangers either change to a 'mainline HS2' service, or the set(s) be shunted to get them the right way around.

The idea of having two different cab designs is idiotic with trains having a blunt and pointed end is silly and not needed as it's trying to reinvent the wheel for no reason at all.

Far better to have a pointed end at both ends of the 200mm HS2 CC trains as it's a proven design that works for example the HS1 trains that SE operate don't have a pointed and a blunt end just for the sake of it, they have pointed ends at both ends of BOTH trains.

It's a good idea to run them as as a 400m train from Birmingham/Manchester to London though just think its looking for a problem that don't exist

 

[RichmondCommu]

As others have said at present HS2 plan at least 3 High Speed trains per hour splitting and joining.

2tph from Edinburgh and Glasgow - London joining at Carstairs.
1tph from Liverpool and Birmingham - London joining at Birmingham Interchange.

Personally I doubt either of these will run like that but I'm sure splitting and joining will be important.

A more likely set of splits come Phase 2 are something like:

2tph from Edinburgh / Glasgow - London joining at Carlisle.
1tph from Liverpool via Runcorn / Preston via Wigan, Warrington joining at Crewe.
1tph from Manchester via Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke / Chester via Crewe joining at Stafford.
1tph from Leeds via Wakefield / Hull via Doncaster joining at Sheffield then running onto HS2 either at Killamarsh or Toton.

Logic is that Scottish services will be better splitting somewhere that actually generates traffic and Carlisle deserves fast services to London.

I also think it's better to split/join the NW services off the high speed network itself to avoid using capacity at the busy Birmingham Interchange.

Services like this will allow HS2 to serve many more provincial desinations without using precious London capacity for too many 200m trains.

Preston and Leeds trains can extend to Lancaster, Blackpool, Bradford and Harrogate to provide even more direct connections. None of these places are going to justify hourly 400m trains but bi-hourly 200m trains will be perfect for them.

The same idea could be replicated for Nottingham and Derby with the two sets joined together at whatever location is finally chosen for the East Midlands.

 

[21C101]

Yeah its not like SWT/ EMT/ Southern/ South Eastern etc do it many times every single day is it! :roll:

Including Javelins on er... HS1 which split (or did until very recently) at Ashford.

Same with bi mode. All this wailing and gnashing of teeth claiming that adding a diesel loco on at the end of the wires couldn't be done. - They obviously never spent any time at Bournemouth between 1967 and 1988 - so they are going to drag a diesel engine for several hundred miles under the wires instead. So much for commitment to reduced C02 etc when not politically convenient surprise surprise.