Penalty Fare advice needed please

[Chris842]

Hi,

My head is all over the place this morning and I would really appreciate some help (reason for this is, as well as the below incident happening today, I found out today that there is a complication with the baby we are expecting and I really can't think straight!).

I'm posting this on a Tuesday. On Sunday, I bought a weekly ticket between Norwood Junction and London Terminals (London Bridge & Victoria). I bought it at Victoria.

Today, I caught my usual 8.21 train, a Southern Rail train, from Norwood Junction to London Bridge and used the ticket to get through the barrier. Its late every single day, but it wasn't today, so I had to run for the train. On arrival at London Bridge, the closest barrier is one which is staffed by Southern Rail but as usual, I went to another one staffed by South Eastern because where I work is right opposite that exit.

At the barrier, I then realised I no longer had the ticket (I lost it at some point during the journey, possibly when I ran for the train). I spoke to a nice woman, explained the situation, she said I'd need to go to another barrier (and pointed) to speak to the person there. At that barrier, I was then told I'd have to pay a penalty fare. He was being rude and intimidating so I said I wanted to go and speak to the other woman again. As I said, he ran after me! Shouting at me to stop running away (I was walking).

I got back to the original barrier and after some arguing with the staff member who followed me (the woman couldn't help), he issued me with a Penalty Fare Notice and said I had 21 days to pay it. During the arguing, I asked him to ring Norwood Junction to see if the ticket had been handed in there and he refused.

I watched as he filled it in. As the "From" station, he put West Norwood. I stopped him and said that should be Norwood Junction but he said it doesn't matter. He then filled out the rest of the form. At the end, I questioned the West Norwood again, but he wouldn't change it.

Also on the form, there is a section for "Class" and two tick boxes - 1st and Std. He didn't tick either of them.

I bought the ticket by debit card, so it will show up on my bank statement - he said I can send that in to an appeal with IPFAS. However I read that IPFAS aren't actually independent and are part of South East trains. So I don't know what to do.... appeal to IPFAS? Write to South Eastern? Something else?

I ended up having to buy another weekly pass but I don't want to pay the £20 on top of that too!

Later, I was chatting to some Southern staff and they were surprised I had been issued with the penalty fare because of the fact I travelled on a Southern train but this was issued by South Eastern.

Do I have grounds to not pay this? Because the form wasn't filled in properly perhaps? (The West Norwood part / the Class part?).
Or will sending my bank statement actually uphold on appeal?

If I try to fight this, am I going to be getting a load of threating letters in the near future?

Again, I appreciate any help. Thanks in advance.

 

[6Gman]

There are other more knowledgeable folk who will doubtless be along shortly but my advice would be to pay the Penalty Fare and put it down to experience.

The fact is that you lost your ticket (however it happened) and were therefore in breach of the regulations.

Having paid - and closed the matter - you are therefore much better placed to make any complaints re staff attitude, poor completion of forms etc.

 

[bb21]

NRCoC Condition 35 applies to your case.

35. Season Ticket or photocard unavailable for inspection

If you do not show a Season Ticket, or any photocard required with a Season Ticket, when asked by staff or agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a ticket and Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

If, subsequently, you present at the office where the Season Ticket was issued.
(a) the Season Ticket;
(b) the photocard, if required; and
(c) the additional tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices, the relevant Train Company may, at its discretion, refund any fares paid in accordance with Condition 2 or 4 less a reasonable administration charge (not exceeding £10).

No more than two such claims will be considered in any 12 month period regardless of the number of Season Tickets purchased in that time.

Condition 4 refers to Penalty Fares. You are therefore correctly liable for a Penalty Fare.

Accusing the RPI of being rude will not get you anywhere since that does not affect the material facts of your case, neither will your sob story (although I have no reason to doubt your story so I assume that it is all true). Part of the reason is that the vast majority of people caught will have claimed to have encountered rude RPIs and have some sort of sob story to tell. The train company has seen it all before and staff are trained to not get distracted by these things.

Your bank statement alone is not sufficient proof that you hold a valid ticket for the journey, although it can form part of the evidence you submit to the train company (or IPFAS, who are not truly independent as you correctly recognise) for consideration.

That said, I do think that the Penalty Fare was incorrectly issued (with the wrong origin station) and therefore should be overturned on appeal, but even if you decide to appeal, make sure you pay it before the deadline as that does not get extended with your appeal. A successful appeal will see the money refunded.

Another reason is that I suspect SouthEastern may not have reciprocal agreements with Southern, to give their RPIs the power to issue Penalty Fares to their passengers. I may be wrong on this second point but I am unable to check at the moment. I'm sure someone will be able to confirm or deny my suspicion before long. (The fact that he filled in a SouthEastern station as your origin looked very dodgy, and only adds weight to my suspicion.) (See post below. My suspicion was wrong.)

 

[MikeWh]

Another reason is that I suspect SouthEastern may not have reciprocal agreements with Southern, to give their RPIs the power to issue Penalty Fares to their passengers. I may be wrong on this second point but I am unable to check at the moment. I'm sure someone will be able to confirm or deny my suspicion before long. (The fact that he filled in a SouthEastern station as your origin looked very dodgy, and only adds weight to my suspicion.)

I'm pretty sure that all the companies at London Bridge co-operate, especially in view of the current building site status and constantly changing routes around the station. Also, West Norwood is served by Southern trains just like Norwood Junction, athough the latter is run by LO.

 

[bb21]

I'm pretty sure that all the companies at London Bridge co-operate, especially in view of the current building site status and constantly changing routes around the station. Also, West Norwood is served by Southern trains just like Norwood Junction, athough the latter is run by LO.

So they are. I think I got it muddled up with West Dulwich. (I know there is a West in there somewhere.)

 

[Chris842]

Thanks for your reply - I appreciate it and it was helpful. I would not have written about my sob story in the letter, I just wanted to make sure I explained absolutely everything here.

That I said the RPI was rude was maybe the wrong choice of words - what I probably should have said was that his general mannerisms were intimidating.

I do intend to appeal. Or a week that should have cost £31 is going to cost £82! (£31 x 2, and the £20 penalty fare) which doesn't feel fair as I was not trying to evade, I had already paid for the ticket. Another thing going on in my life at the moment is that I am relocating to Manchester this Saturday and have just had to pay estate agent fees, deposit and first month's rent for a house there. I'm overdrawn and so this is the last thing I need.

Given that IPFAS are actually South Eastern, can you suggest who I should write to? I think I read somewhere that there is somewhere 'higher up' you can go to, but I can't remember who that was.

I'm also not sure I can prove I came from Norwood Junction and not West Norwood, would I need to prove this? The only proof I can think of is that I would show up on CCTV at Norwood Junction - do they check CCTV?

 

[Chris842]

I just read this article: http://www.theguardian.com/money/2007/jun/30/consumernews.transportintheuk

Here are the last two paragraphs:

If the guard issues a penalty notice anyway, there is 21 days to appeal to the company. However even if there is no appeal, or the appeal is not allowed, the company is not automatically entitled to its money. It first has to sue in the county court. Judges hearing such claims would not give judgment for the penalty sum unless the company could justify it.

There has been no reported case of a train company suing in this way. The last thing the rail industry would want is a pronouncement by a judge on its levying of penalty fares.


Is this actually true? Therefore could I just ignore the letters when/if they came? (I don't want to sound like a ticket evader here, but as I said before, I think the whole thing is unfair).

I'm still intending to appeal but wondering if this would be a good course of action if the appeal is unsuccessful? Which I expect it to be, given the info about IPFAS.

 

[Class377]

You COULD, although if you did the Train Operating Company would be perfectly at liberty to "withdraw" the offer of the penalty fare and pursue a prosecution (most likely under the railway bylaws, as intend would not need to be proven) which would either cost a higher cost for an out-of-court settlement or an almost certain three figure fine if it went to court.

 

[bb21]

Is this actually true? Therefore could I just ignore the letters when/if they came? (I don't want to sound like a ticket evader here, but as I said before, I think the whole thing is unfair).

I'm still intending to appeal but wondering if this would be a good course of action if the appeal is unsuccessful? Which I expect it to be, given the info about IPFAS.

You could challenge it that way, but what these articles all fail to mention is that the company could simply withdraw the Penalty Fare in these circumstances and issue a court summons under the Railway Byelaws instead. You are in breach of Byelaw 18(2) from what you have described so you will just end up getting convicted with a bigger fine to go with it than the Penalty Fare itself.

One of the worst problems with journalists is that sometimes they write about half-understood subjects without any proper research work into the wider picture.

Penalty Fare is a civil matter, but Railway Byelaws is a criminal matter. You shouldn't receive a criminal record on conviction, as it is not a recordable offence, but financially this course of action makes no sense.

what I probably should have said was that his general mannerisms were intimidating.

They mostly are, and even if not, they can appear so to a passenger in such a situation because they are in a position of power. You won't be the only one to feel like that.

I do intend to appeal. Or a week that should have cost £31 is going to cost £82! (£31 x 2, and the £20 penalty fare) which doesn't feel fair as I was not trying to evade, I had already paid for the ticket. Another thing going on in my life at the moment is that I am relocating to Manchester this Saturday and have just had to pay estate agent fees, deposit and first month's rent for a house there. I'm overdrawn and so this is the last thing I need.

Unfortunately a weekly season ticket cannot be replaced (generally speaking) unlike ones valid for a longer period.

Given that IPFAS are actually South Eastern, can you suggest who I should write to? I think I read somewhere that there is somewhere 'higher up' you can go to, but I can't remember who that was.

Appeal to IPFAS, but don't be surprised if you appeal is rejected, given the incompetence of the organisation. All you need to give as a reason is that you did not travel from the station stated. But as I mentioned earlier, make sure you pay it before the deadline. That way, your damage would be limited to £20 in the worst case scenario.

I would say at the meantime also write to SouthEastern explaining your situation, with your bank statement as proof and the additional season ticket you purchased. They may use their discretion to withdraw the Penalty Fare.

If unsuccessful, you could take the matter up with London Travelwatch. I believe this is the type of situations they are most interested in and can be quite effective in their intervention.

Unfortunately I cannot offer any guarantee because technically speaking you are liable for a Penalty Fare, but this is the best avenue to explore imo.

I'm also not sure I can prove I came from Norwood Junction and not West Norwood, would I need to prove this? The only proof I can think of is that I would show up on CCTV at Norwood Junction - do they check CCTV?

You shouldn't need to prove it. OOI, which train did you catch?

 

[6Gman]

One of the worst problems with journalists is that sometimes they write about half-understood subjects without any proper research work into the wider picture.

I think the appropriate word is "often".


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I just read this article: http://www.theguardian.com/money/2007/jun/30/consumernews.transportintheuk

The article seems to suggest that any queue (one person) means that ticket issuing facilities were not available, which seems a highly dubious position.

To put it mildly.

 

[Chris842]

You shouldn't need to prove it. OOI, which train did you catch?

I got the 08.21 today (August 5th) from Norwood Junction to London Bridge.

Thanks again for the helpful and fast replies. You're right... I don't like it, but I am going to pay it and then appeal to avoid the risk of a three figure fine I think. And the stress that will come with the letters I'll doubtless get.

Yes it was London Travelwatch I was thinking of. And another that I saw was Passenger Focus. I'll be going to one of these if the appeal is unsuccessful.

Thanks again.

 

[bb21]

I got the 08.21 today (August 5th) from Norwood Junction to London Bridge.

So you were nowhere near West Norwood.

Thanks again for the helpful and fast replies. You're right... I don't like it, but I am going to pay it and then appeal to avoid the risk of a three figure fine I think. And the stress that will come with the letters I'll doubtless get.

Good man.

Yes it was London Travelwatch I was thinking of. And another that I saw was Passenger Focus. I'll be going to one of these if the appeal is unsuccessful.

Passenger Focus will not take your case on, as it falls outside their jurisdiction.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I just wanted to add support to bb21's assurance that the 'advice' in the newspaper article is unreliable and at best, untested opinion. However, I do believe that you should appeal the Penalty Fare on the simple grounds that it is factually incorrect. Facts such as origin and destination stations should be correct.
That's not to say I'm confident that your appeal will succeed, sadly.

 

[Qwerty133]

I'd also phone Southerns lost property department, on the off chance the original ticket has been handed in.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'd also phone Southerns lost property department, on the off chance the original ticket has been handed in.

Also contact TfL's lost property office, as I believe that is what serves LO stations.

 

[Chris842]

Thanks, I gave them a call but no luck.

I've been writing my appeal letter, on the grounds they put West Norwood on the notice but I travelled from Norwood Junction.

Can anyone quote part of the Penalty Fares rules which is relevant to this so I can put it in the letter please?



Edit: I've also just noticed: The date on it is the 5th August. It says further down that I must pay by 25th August. This is 20 days, not 21 days and the penalty fares rules say this:

8.3 If a person wants to appeal against the penalty fare, or does not
pay the penalty fare in full immediately, the authorised
collector must give them a written notice setting out:

e. that they must pay within 21 days of receiving the notice;

Is it worth citing this in the appeal letter?

 

[Qwerty133]

Thanks, I gave them a call but no luck.

I've been writing my appeal letter, on the grounds they put West Norwood on the notice but I travelled from Norwood Junction.

Can anyone quote part of the Penalty Fares rules which is relevant to this so I can put it in the letter please?



Edit: I've also just noticed: The date on it is the 5th August. It says further down that I must pay by 25th August. This is 20 days, not 21 days and the penalty fares rules say this:

8.3 If a person wants to appeal against the penalty fare, or does not
pay the penalty fare in full immediately, the authorised
collector must give them a written notice setting out:

e. that they must pay within 21 days of receiving the notice;

Is it worth citing this in the appeal letter?

If you count the 5th as day 1, the 25th would be day 21, so this is probably correct.

 

[LateThanNever]

If you count the 5th as day 1, the 25th would be day 21, so this is probably correct.

That's the inclusive system of reckoning. It was used by the Romans and sometimes survives in Roman law countries but is not used in England! So another error to point out.

 

[island]

Do be aware that the underlying criminal offence of joining a train without a ticket is not excused due to any perceived procedural failure or technicality.

 

[LateThanNever]

Do be aware that the underlying criminal offence of joining a train without a ticket is not excused due to any perceived procedural failure or technicality.

But the OP didn't join without a ticket, he lost it en route!
It needs to be argued also that a strict liability offence needs to be dealt with in an equally strict procedural manner. Natural Justice dictates that mistakes in execution by the prosecutors are not less serious than the mistakes of the accused.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm sorry that my only contributions to this thread are to be critical of other members' posts, but I do have an obligation to provide accurate and relevant advice, so I must again add clutter to this thread:

It needs to be argued also that a strict liability offence needs to be dealt with in an equally strict procedural manner. Natural Justice dictates that mistakes in execution by the prosecutors are not less serious than the mistakes of the accused.

I strongly disagree.
In fact, I wonder what appropriate knowledge, qualification or experience you are depending on to make the advice to Chris842 that "it needs to be argued . . . . " a realistic outcome from any reasonable risk assessment of their options, costs and benefits?

Please explain how you reach the conclusion that this is the appropriate advice for Chirs842 to pursue in terms of this forum's rules and how (s)he will benefit from it.

There are strategies available to the Defence in responding to the prosecution of strict liability Offences, and some of them have clearly been successful for individuals accused of relatively minor Offences. But to the best of my knowldege, none of those successes have flowed from a challenge of "natural justice".
In fact, I'm stuggling to recall any challenge of "natural justice" that have even approached success in the Defence of a Railway passenger accused of travelling without a ticket.

I'm also a little surprised by this suggestion comng from you, LateThanNever, as you have criticised the Railway Byelaws on here for their age, and for the poor standards period in which they were drafted (as long ago as 2005), while now you seek to invoke one of the few principles in English Law that predates the Magna Carta (799 years old) to challenge a Penaly Fare (a principle which I believe to be about 1800 years old).

It is my experience that Judgments handed down by the Courts in recent times are acutely aware of the principle of "natural justice".

 

[LateThanNever]

I'm sorry that my only contributions to this thread are to be critical of other members' posts, but I do have an obligation to provide accurate and relevant advice, so I must again add clutter to this thread:I strongly disagree.
In fact, I wonder what appropriate knowledge, qualification or experience you are depending on to make the advice to Chris842 that "it needs to be argued . . . . " a realistic outcome from any reasonable risk assessment of their options, costs and benefits?

Please explain how you reach the conclusion that this is the appropriate advice for Chirs842 to pursue in terms of this forum's rules and how (s)he will benefit from it.

There are strategies available to the Defence in responding to the prosecution of strict liability Offences, and some of them have clearly been successful for individuals accused of relatively minor Offences. But to the best of my knowldege, none of those successes have flowed from a challenge of "natural justice".
In fact, I'm stuggling to recall any challenge of "natural justice" that have even approached success in the Defence of a Railway passenger accused of travelling without a ticket.

If you count proper process as part of Natural Justice then then in this instance there appear to be various errors by the prosecution. Wrong station? Wrong prosecution. If the prosecuting authorities strive for 'transparency' (like the Police) then they should take the matter no further.

I'm also a little surprised by this suggestion comng from you, LateThanNever, as you have criticised the Railway Byelaws on here for their age, and for the poor standards period in which they were drafted (as long ago as 2005), while now you seek to invoke one of the few principles in English Law that predates the Magna Carta (799 years old) to challenge a Penaly Fare (a principle which I believe to be about 1800 years old).

It is my experience that Judgments handed down by the Courts in recent times are acutely aware of the principle of "natural justice".

How much better for all if more of the Prosecutors were more acutely aware of it!
I'm not at all sure that the principle of Natural Justice is so unique to English Law in fact - though having ruled an empire and been on the winning side in two world wars English Law has certainly done a lot to spread the idea. And surely Magna Carta was just a carve up between a tyrannical monarch and his nobles rather than any great legal principles. Or perhaps the railway have been taking notes on King John's technique? Anyway wherever Natural Justice originated it is only surprising to invoke it if you presume that wisdom increases over the passing years. Regrettably the Railway Byelaws (amongst many others) just go to prove that it doesn't.

 

[island]

But the OP didn't join without a ticket, he lost it en route!

Sorry, I was thinking of another thread when I replied. Please substitute the offence of failing to hand over a ticket for inspection, presuming the OP was asked to do so.

 

[LateThanNever]

Sorry, I was thinking of another thread when I replied. Please substitute the offence of failing to hand over a ticket for inspection, presuming the OP was asked to do so.

Fair enough! He seems to have volunteered himself in fact.
But it surely makes a court case even less likely.

 

[Chris842]

Hi - I got my appeal letter today (appeal rejected, surprise surprise):

Thank you for your correspondence, received by this office on 12-Aug-2014.

The Penalty Fares Rules work in conjunction with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCOC). Both state that where the facility exists at the origin station passengers must buy the correct ticket for their entire journey before joining the train. Penalty Fare warning notices are displayed at all Penalty Fare stations advising rail users of the necessity to produce a valid ticket for inspection on request and of the consequences for failling to do so.

Appeal decisions are made in accordance with a Government approved Code of Practice (COP). A copy of the Penalty Fare Rules, NRCOC and approved COP are available online at https://www.penaltyfares.co.uk.

I understand from your appeal that a valid ticket was unavailable for inspection on request because it had been lost. In accordance with the Conditions of Carriage, the safekeeping of a ticket is the passenger's responsibility. With the exception of some season tickets, lost tickets will not be replaced, nor will any of their cost be refunded. When request by staff of any train company of its agents, passengers must hand over for inspection a valid ticket and any accompanying photocard or Railcard. If not, they will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and may be liable to pay a penalty fare. A receipt or proof of payment is not a ticket (not what the RPO told me, who said I can send that in on appeal!), is not valid for travel and unfortunately cannot be used to retrospectively cancel a penalty fare notice. Since a valid ticket could not be produced for inspection on request at the time of travel on this occasion, a penalty fare is due.

It is impossible to establish exactly what was said to you by the Collector at the time when the notice was issued without being present at the time. However, I would point that you signed the notice in agreement to the information written on it (including the journey undertaken) and were given a copy of the penalty fare notice to keep as notification of issue and to act as a receipt for the fare already paid.

With that in mind, I regret to advise that your appeal has been unsuccessful. Attached is a statement provided by RPSS. An amount of £20.00 is currently outstanding and should be paid immediately to avoid further action or charges. Payment may be made with the appropriate credit/debit card online at www.penaltyfares.co.uk. When paying online, please ensure you enter the correct notice prefix and notice number from the notice itself. You can also pay by phone Mon-Fri from 06:00 to 22:00 on 0871 559 2997. Calls are charged at 10ppm from a BT land line. Calls from mobiles may vary depending on your tariff. Alternatively, you can send a cheque or postal order to RPSS, PO Box 89, Portsmouth, Hants, PO1 1EG, attached to a copy of this letter.

Yours sincerely,

Jason Saunders
Appeals Assessor

That second to last paragraph really ****es me off! Yes I signed it, because I was forced to! I told him about 3 times that the "From" station was incorrect and that is what makes me post this here..... because they are putting it in, it feels important that the "From" station is correct. My deadline for paying is Monday and I'm thinking about not doing so, given the last few replies saying its unlikely to go to court. This feels like an injustice and I dont want to let myself be "bullied by big business".

The footnote on the leter says

London & South Eastern Railway Limited trading as IPFAS

Why are they allowed to get away with this?

 

[yorkie]

My deadline for paying is Monday and I'm thinking about not doing so, given the last few replies saying its unlikely to go to court. This feels like an injustice and I dont want to let myself be "bullied by big business".

I'd like to see someone have a victory in a case like this, but make sure that - if it comes to it - you have proper legal representation.

The footnote on the leter says

London & South Eastern Railway Limited trading as IPFAS

Why are they allowed to get away with this?

Because there is no effective Regulator, and no ombudsman with any real powers.

Government policy is to be anti-rail passenger, and many Train Companies policies are in line with this policy.

You could write to your MP. If enough people do this, we might be able to get something done eventually.

 

[bb21]

My deadline for paying is Monday and I'm thinking about not doing so, given the last few replies saying its unlikely to go to court.

If anything, it is more likely to go to court now that they have solid evidence that you are refusing to pay a fare you are deemed (fairly or unfairly) liable for, ie. a Penalty Fare.

Your refusal to pay may now be interpreted as a Section 5.3(a) offence under the Regulation of Railways Act. I cannot say for sure whether your action of purchasing a ticket after the event negates the intent. This becomes a recordable criminal offence if you are prosecuted and convicted under it, as opposed to an unrecordable Byelaw offence.

This feels like an injustice and I dont want to let myself be "bullied by big business".

I thought you said that you were going to pay it and then take the matter up with London Travelwatch?

I think your sense of injustice is clouding your judgement.

The footnote on the leter says

London & South Eastern Railway Limited trading as IPFAS

Why are they allowed to get away with this?

Because they can and because the government doesn't give a damn about the passengers.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I would suggest you pay any outstanding penalty fare and argue about it later through Travelwatch. If the outstanding amount is an admin fee then take your choice.

 

[bb21]

Also on the point of being forced to sign the Penalty Fare, that is unlikely to wash. While I understand that you may feel under pressure to sign the notice under the circumstances, no one can ever force you to do so. I would never sign such a thing should I be in your position and feel that the notice has been incorrectly filled.

 

[najaB]

My deadline for paying is Monday and I'm thinking about not doing so, given the last few replies saying its unlikely to go to court. This feels like an injustice and I dont want to let myself be "bullied by big business".

Before you get too caught up in the perceived injustice, answer one question: did you have a valid ticket for your journey when the RPI asked for it? If you didn't then the penalty fare was valid and you should just pay it and forget about the £20.