Oyster fom NR station with broken facilities

[CNash]

My Travelcard expired last week, so I set aside a few extra minutes in the morning to get it renewed. As I began from a National Rail station (run by Southeastern), the only Oyster facilities were the two TVMs - one of which was out of service, and the other had its "Oyster" button greyed out and inaccessible.

In the event, I had enough PAYG credit to make a journey to my destination (Cannon Street), and renewed my Travelcard there. However, I'm curious as to the situation had I not had sufficient credit:

1. As I was unable to buy my desired ticket, would I have been obliged to have bought a single ticket to my destination in order to travel there and use its ticket facilities?
2. If I had done so, would I have been able to get this ticket refunded upon explaining the situation?

 

[maniacmartin]

This thread about NRCoC condition 3 may be relevant!

 

[CNash]

Wouldn't Condition 3 be slightly trickier when it comes to part-exchanging a ticket for a smartcard product, though?

(Given that Southeastern can't/won't touch Oyster cards, and TfL similarly won't have anything to do with NR tickets, I mean)

 

[LexyBoy]

My understanding:
1: yes;
2: unlikely.

Slightly related scenario: I turn up at Kingston station and wish to travel to Waterloo. I wish to do this for the fare shown on NRE (£3.60) which is of ticket type POP - Oyster PAYG single. I either do not have an Oyster card, or do not have credit on it: there are no facilities for Oyster at this station. The cheapest ticket I can purchase to comply with Condition 3 is an SDS to Norbiton at £5. If I purchase this ticket do I (a) get it exchanged and a refund at Waterloo, (b) get it exchanged but lose the value, or (c) get a penalty fare or be prosecuted?

Bear in mind the oft-repeated mantra that it is the ticket, not the medium, which is important...

 

[MikeWh]

My understanding:
1: yes;
2: unlikely.

Slightly related scenario: I turn up at Kingston station and wish to travel to Waterloo. I wish to do this for the fare shown on NRE (£3.60) which is of ticket type POP - Oyster PAYG single. I either do not have an Oyster card, or do not have credit on it: there are no facilities for Oyster at this station. The cheapest ticket I can purchase to comply with Condition 3 is an SDS to Norbiton at £5. If I purchase this ticket do I (a) get it exchanged and a refund at Waterloo, (b) get it exchanged but lose the value, or (c) get a penalty fare or be prosecuted?

Bear in mind the oft-repeated mantra that it is the ticket, not the medium, which is important...

Hmmm. POP and PAP fares are quite confusing. They don't actually exist in terms of NR tickets, they're just there for comparison purposes, AIUI. Oyster PAYG is effectively another form of cash. When you touch in the system validates that you have some credit. Only when you touch out does it decide what 'ticket' you have actually used, and even then it might be subject to a daily cap. If you don't have an Oyster card then you can't use the system at all. If you don't have enough credit then it is effectively like being at or over your credit limit on a credit card, you have to find another way to pay.

Travelcards are a bit different. They are the same product whether on paper or Oyster. I'm not 100% clear, but if a station hasn't got facilities to sell you a travelcard on your Oyster then you may have a claim to a refund of any additional tickets purchased.

 

[LexyBoy]

Another thought - the OP should have had the fare deducted from their Travelcard.

If you were travelling from a station with an Oyster reader but no TVM (are there any?), to a station outside the Oyster zone, should you touch in and exchange en-route? Presumably the most sensible thing would just be to disregard the Oyster, but it does represent a way of paying part of the fare...

Hmmm. POP and PAP fares are quite confusing. They don't actually exist in terms of NR tickets, they're just there for comparison purposes, AIUI. Oyster PAYG is effectively another form of cash. When you touch in the system validates that you have some credit. Only when you touch out does it decide what 'ticket' you have actually used, and even then it might be subject to a daily cap. If you don't have an Oyster card then you can't use the system at all. If you don't have enough credit then it is effectively like being at or over your credit limit on a credit card, you have to find another way to pay.

Yes, it is different to the OP. However, the point is that the PAYG fare is an advertised fare for the journey in question, which is not available from the station and therefore should, in my opinion, be treated the same as any other case where Condition 3 might apply.

 

[bb21]

Another thought - the OP should have had the fare deducted from their Travelcard.

If you were travelling from a station with an Oyster reader but no TVM (are there any?), to a station outside the Oyster zone, should you touch in and exchange en-route? Presumably the most sensible thing would just be to disregard the Oyster, but it does represent a way of paying part of the fare...

No, just buy your ticket at the first available opportunity, or use a PERTIS machine if there were one.

No one will know whether you have an Oyster card with you anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

...I wish to do this for the fare shown on NRE (£3.60) which is of ticket type POP - Oyster PAYG single.

NREs isn't showing any POP & PAP fare types for me. Are you perhaps referring to BR Fares?

 

[LexyBoy]

NREs isn't showing any POP & PAP fare types for me. Are you perhaps referring to BR Fares?

Hmm, I seem to have misremembered. It does however show the Oyster fare clearly at the top, along with Travelcard fares - it would be reasonable to think that these fares would be available to the traveller (without relying on non-Railway retailers).

I also seem to have got my fares muddled, I blame lack of sleep...

 

[RJ]

Hmmm. POP and PAP fares are quite confusing. They don't actually exist in terms of NR tickets, they're just there for comparison purposes, AIUI.

They do have a material purpose. At the ticket office I worked at, we used to top up Oyster Cards. The process involved printing out the POP/PAP ticket for the appropriate amount then feeding it into the Fastis machine, which would then allow it to be loaded onto the Oyster. The POP/PAP ticket was automatically "non issued" by the Fastis machine and went off to the accountants at the end of the day. We were told to stop doing this after a while as a policy of a £5 minimum top up was brought in - so just stuck to using the OTU type tickets to top up in whole pounds.