• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Kilometre - Kick it into Touch

Status
Not open for further replies.

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
17,835
Location
Epsom
I thought that was caused by the contractor paying inadequate attention to the specifications they were to work with, combined with the decline in engineering competency at NASA which peaked during the Apollo program when they had engineers who went through things like that with a fine tooth comb. There would have been plenty of opportunity for the contractor to pick the wrong unit even if the metric system wasn't involved.

There was one Mars probe which failed shortly after launch because a plus sign had been used instead of a minus sign in the software - or the other way round. That's not a metric / imperial muddle up, but the end result was the same!

Personally I tend to use metric more than imperial...
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Trog

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2009
Messages
1,546
Location
In Retirement.
How about live and let live it would be no hardship to have food labels etc printed with the weight of the contents in both systems so people could use the one they liked best. Both systems work and can even be used together, in the DCE office I worked in we did all our track design drawings in metric vertically and imperial horizontally without any problems.
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
9,213
Location
SE London
Perhaps that industry could be persuaded to decide whether to adopt a true metric system (x1000) or the pseudo metric system based on powers of two (x1024) for describing storage capacities. I'm sure it would free up a lot of server space if we could rid the internet of all the "where's all my free space gone?" type questions. :D

There is actually a reason for that though. 1024 better reflects how computer technology works, and what sizes things therefore tend to come in!
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
Perhaps that industry could be persuaded to decide whether to adopt a true metric system (x1000) or the pseudo metric system based on powers of two (x1024) for describing storage capacities. I'm sure it would free up a lot of server space if we could rid the internet of all the "where's all my free space gone?" type questions. :D

That's the reason why binary equivalents of the SI prefixes were brought in. 1MiB (mebibyte) = 2^10 KiB (kibibytes). It would be easy enough to use this system.

How about live and let live it would be no hardship to have food labels etc printed with the weight of the contents in both systems so people could use the one they liked best.

Indeed but one has to take preference over the other and people will moan about it - milk is sold as you suggest but this is a volume rather than a weight. Listing weights would be a bad idea - imagine having to divide by 9.81 m/s² or whatever the imperial equivalent is.
 

DownSouth

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2011
Messages
1,545
I'm not in favour of retaining imperial measurements for sentimental or patriotic reasons.
I think that some of the imperial system units are excellent at times – specifically those times when you want to make it clear that don't give a rat's a**e about precision!

People here in Australia still talk about inch ants, not because some ants are 25.4mm long but in reference to a particular variety of bloody big ant with a venomous sting.

When people here talk about something being miles away, that's just short for "a long distance." A long distance is of course a moving target, for a suburban person 5km is a long distance to walk to the shops but in rural areas it's normal to drive over 50km to the nearest decent-sized town.

Pounds and ounces continued to be used for the public announcement of a newborn baby's weight for years, but that's now dying out and these days the only time you ever talk about pounds is when gossiping about someone who's carrying too many of them around the waist.
I am quite happy buying milk in litres, bread in grams and even beer in half litres.
The conversion to metric in Australia saw some interesting moves worked out to switch over with food.

The pint bottle was still a quite convenient size for milk that was primarily delivered at the time, so this switched to be 600mL. That size was then kept when milk largely switched to square cartons, for both the smallest size available in plain milk and also the standard size for flavoured milk such as Farmer's Union Iced Coffee, legendary for making South Australia the only place in the world where Coca Cola is outsold by a milk drink.
img-01.png


Glass sizes in pubs seemed to be quite convenient, so they basically kept them. These days you generally get beer in glasses which are close enough (i.e. rounded off to 570mL, not 568mL exactly) to a pint in volume. The common smaller size 'middy' (285mL) and 'schooner' (425mL) glasses are roughly equivalent to ½ and ¾ of a pint each. Does the average punter at the pub know this? No, and it doesn't matter either.
You'd almost never buy a 500mL bottle of beer though. Beer is generally a stubby (375mL, same volume as a can), longneck (750mL, same as a normal bottle of wine) or more recently 330mL for 'premium' domestic beer, imported beer or locally-brewed beer.
Other drinks are commonly sold in cans of 250, 375 and 500mL (½, ¾ and 1 full "metric pint" if you take a metric pint to be 500mL) or plastic bottles of 600 and 750mL.
There was one Mars probe which failed shortly after launch because a plus sign had been used instead of a minus sign in the software - or the other way round. That's not a metric / imperial muddle up, but the end result was the same!
You must be thinking of a different one.

The one referred to here was the Mars Surveyor '98 fiasco in which both probes (one orbiter and one lander) crashed into the surface of Mars within a few months of each other.

The Mars Climate Orbiter was the one with the imperial unit issue causing it to approach the planet too close for the orbital insertion to work properly, attributed to one software program calculating the total impulse (i.e. the change in momentum) from a number of thruster firings in pound.seconds instead of the required newton.seconds which was in the specification issued to the contractor Lockheed. Even if SI units was not involved, calculations involving force are a recipe for disaster with the imperial system because of the confusing difference between pounds (mass) and pounds (force) where the SI has kilograms (mass) and newtons (force) to remove the possibility of ambiguity.

The other part of that mission was the Mars Polar Lander, which arrived at Mars a few months later and then crashed into the surface. This one had the sensors falsely detecting touchdown while it was still descending, which caused the engines to stop firing and the lander to fall to the surface.

As I wrote earlier, the root cause of the error was the decline in engineering competence at NASA. This peaked during the Apollo program when they had a good bunch of administrators who knew their role was just to support the engineers and give them what they needed to get the job done, which saw such feats as Apollo, Skylab, the Voyager probes and the beginnings of the Space Shuttle program. During the early 1980s and then again during the 1990s, NASA grew into a bloated bureaucracy that had too much management, directly leading to various high-profile failures of unmanned missions and the losses of the Space Shuttles Challenger and Columbia.
There is actually a reason for that though. 1024 better reflects how computer technology works, and what sizes things therefore tend to come in!
Except it doesn't work that way in hardware these days! The external drive sitting on my shelf here is a 4 TB drive which has in fine print that it is 4 trillion bytes (i.e. 4 x1000x1000x1000x1000) and not a convenient x1024 number.

My internal drive is 500 GB, not 500 GiB or 512 GiB. Even SD cards (despite the sizes available being 2, 4, 8 etc) are sizes in GB (i.e. 32x1000x1000x1000) and not in GiB, makes you wonder why they don't forget putting up even a pretence and simply make them in round number sizes like 50 GB or 100 GB instead of keeping up the charade.

Sure, RAM still comes in x1024 numbers, but that's very much the exception to the rule now.

Keeping things in the x1024 system only benefits certain programmers and hardware designers, but for everything that gets displayed to end users the x1000 system is better. An operation needs to be done to display that info on the screen, multiplying it by a slightly different conversion factor is not going to be a drain on performance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed but one has to take preference over the other and people will moan about it - milk is sold as you suggest but this is a volume rather than a weight. Listing weights would be a bad idea - imagine having to divide by 9.81 m/s² or whatever the imperial equivalent is.
+1 for knowing the difference between mass and weight.

Of course, it doesn't help the imperial system's cause that pounds are a unit used in both!
 
Last edited:

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,654
Location
Nottingham
Even if SI units was not involved, calculations involving force are a recipe for disaster with the imperial system because of the confusing difference between pounds (mass) and pounds (force) where the SI has kilograms (mass) and newtons (force) to remove the possibility of ambiguity.

Presuably a Mars probe would have to use the Martian version of "g" when converting between pounds force and ponds mass?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'd be amazed if NR engineering works were not already done completely in metric units, with the imperial units left just for the speeds and distances seen by train drivers and the like. Professional quality works need professional quality measurements and surveys!

You might end up being rather surprised. Anyone with a UK main line rail operations background tends to think in miles and mph and many quite old plans using Imperial measurements are still current for some purposes. I'm not involved much with them these days but I think signalling plans still quote distances in yards as well as metres. Certainly last time I looked the standard for braking distances between signals quoted them in both units.

Howevery you are correct in that most of the actual engineering is done in SI units.

Aviation also uses feet for height and knots for speed, probably because the US dominated its development.
 
Last edited:

DownSouth

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2011
Messages
1,545
Presuably a Mars probe would have to use the Martian version of "g" when converting between pounds force and ponds mass?
I'm sure it would, but I'm not sure what the mass of a pond would have to do with it :p

The Mars Climate Orbiter wasn't an issue to do with the local g though (something that would have been well established well before 1998) but rather an issue to do with a manoeuvre still out in space where the impulse delivered by the engines was calculated incorrectly.

Think of it like telling a blind man where to walk. If you tell him to go forward six, he might interpret that as six metres while you really intended him to go only six feet.
 

Emyr

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2014
Messages
656
Except it doesn't work that way in hardware these days! The external drive sitting on my shelf here is a 4 TB drive which has in fine print that it is 4 trillion bytes (i.e. 4 x1000x1000x1000x1000) and not a convenient x1024 number.

My internal drive is 500 GB, not 500 GiB or 512 GiB. Even SD cards (despite the sizes available being 2, 4, 8 etc) are sizes in GB (i.e. 32x1000x1000x1000) and not in GiB, makes you wonder why they don't forget putting up even a pretence and simply make them in round number sizes like 50 GB or 100 GB instead of keeping up the charade.

Sure, RAM still comes in x1024 numbers, but that's very much the exception to the rule now.

Keeping things in the x1024 system only benefits certain programmers and hardware designers, but for everything that gets displayed to end users the x1000 system is better. An operation needs to be done to display that info on the screen, multiplying it by a slightly different conversion factor is not going to be a drain on performance.

In solid state storage, an 8 "GB" device will have a "binary" number of storage chips, each theoretivally capable of storing a "binary" number of words but the device controller will only offer the "decimal" version of the capacity so that wear-levelling and decommissioning of bad sectors can be handled without losing capacity.
 

DownSouth

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2011
Messages
1,545
In solid state storage, an 8 "GB" device will have a "binary" number of storage chips, each theoretivally capable of storing a "binary" number of words but the device controller will only offer the "decimal" version of the capacity so that wear-levelling and decommissioning of bad sectors can be handled without losing capacity.
But that's still useless on Windows, where the binary numbers are used with the decimal labels alongside them!
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
I have little to choose from between a mile and a kilometer - they are both counted in decades (the thousand paces to the mile seems to have been lost a long time ago) but I do wish units were less arbitrary. What is the role of the 'second' of time and the 'degree' of angularity in metric counting systems? Both could be divided into units in decades.

But we should recognise that the natural world which we're trying to quantify doesn't lend itself well to division into decades. The tides will continue to cycle at about 12 hrs 25mins, a year will continue to cycle at just under 365 days, and cellular growth prefers the fibonacci series rather than decades.
The basis of decades appears to be our 10 fingers, though we could have easily have chosen 8 (omitting the thumbs) which would make some binary divisions even easier. But we have a natural empathy for 4's, 8's, 16's etc, and not for 10's. Perhaps the best illustration is the natural sympathy we have for popular music rhythm structures, seeming being able to recognise the beats of 4 x 4 bars and 4 x 4 x 4 without any conscious effort.

I'll need some persuasion that 10's deserve any special status in our measuring systems, but I have no preference between imperial or metric units.
 

Liam

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
1,245
When I want to measure something, I want to base it on something a little more reliable than the size on a dried grain of barley in the 1300's.

The yard is officially defined as 0.9144m, a mile is officially defined as 1609.344m. So if imperial measures are defined by metric values, what's the point in continuing to use imperial measures at all?
 
Last edited:

stibz

Member
Joined
7 May 2014
Messages
83
Everyone IS allowed their own opinion, I stated mine, might be old fashioned like me at 58yrs, but that's what I think. I'm allowed to think and state an opinion, without getting flamed for it? This thread was originally in the OP asking about persons opinions on the subject.
Something wrong with that ??? (shame no finger smilie) :lol:
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
9,213
Location
SE London
I have little to choose from between a mile and a kilometer - they are both counted in decades (the thousand paces to the mile seems to have been lost a long time ago) but I do wish units were less arbitrary. What is the role of the 'second' of time and the 'degree' of angularity in metric counting systems? Both could be divided into units in decades.

Degrees for angles work particularly well because they allow so many commonly used angles in geometry to be expressed as conveniently sized integers, without any fractional part. Eg. 90 degrees for a right angle, 60 degrees for the angle in an equilateral triangle etc. Any decade-based unit would lose that convenience - which is why there's no serious movement to replace degrees.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When I want to measure something, I want to base it on something a little more reliable than the size on a dried grain of barley in the 1300's.

The yard is officially defined as 0.9144m, a mile is officially defined as 1609.344m. So if imperial measures are defined by metric values, what's the point in continuing to use imperial measures at all?

Because some people are more familiar with them and find it easier to think in terms of imperial measures. Using a unit that they don't intuitively feel comfortable with makes it harder for them.

In the long term (ie. on a timescale of 100 years) it may well be simpler if we only used metric. But that's no use to all the people alive today who feel very comfortable with miles and pounds etc. - who for example, intuitively understand what 30mph means, but who do not have an intuitive feel for what 50km-ph means.
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,824
Location
Stirlingshire
There was one Mars probe which failed shortly after launch because a plus sign had been used instead of a minus sign in the software - or the other way round. That's not a metric / imperial muddle up, but the end result was the same!

Personally I tend to use metric more than imperial...


Argh...your not one of those who say's "I'm One Metre 80 Tall" are you <D

Heights and weight have survived largely unscathed - or am I out of touch :p
 

underbank

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2013
Messages
1,486
Location
North West England
It's the mathematic symmetry of imperial that served it well over hundreds of years and is of course why we have 360 degrees, 12 months, 12 inches to the foot, 3 feet to the yard. It's all about division and sub-division. It's from a time when the measurements (although not exactly correct) actually meant something and could readily be used. For example, I seem to remember an acre was the size of a field that could be ploughed in a day - you didn't need to measure it accurately to identify it - most people of those days would look at a field and know instinctively whether it was 1 or 2 acres, i.e. whether it would take a day or two days to plough. If you had a commodity like flour, but you didn't have scales (most folk wouldn't), you could easily and simply, half your sack, half it again, and again, and you could easily subdivide it down to pounds and ounces. Even today, tins of beans and cans of coke are wholesaled in boxes of 24 or 12 - because that gives a "nice" size and shape to the boxes - an easy to handle 4x3 rectangle. Try stacking tins of bins in boxes of 10 and you soon realise why they've stayed in 12s or 24s as you get a hard to deal with 5x2 elongated rectangle box!

When you move to metric, you need accurate measuring equipment and computer chips to handle to calculations. That's fine when we have such equipment to hand, but if, for whatever reason, such equipment isn't available, the average bloke in the street won't have a clue. Compare that to imperial, where massive strides in human development were made without expensive and complex measuring and calculating gizmos.

I'm an accountant, and I see lots of people start up limited companies with 100 shares. Looks a nice round figure doesn't it? Easy enough to halve when a second investor comes in, to make 50:50, but what happens with the third? Suddenly we have 33 1/3 each. OK, easy enough to handle with computers, but looks messy and causes unnecessary complication. If a shareholder sells half his shares, to say his wife, then they'd have 16 2/3 each. Far better to start with 360, which turns into 120 over 3 people then 60 between husband and wife, allowing for easy transfer of 30 to each of their children. See how quickly and easily an "imperial" measure can be dividend and subdivided without the complications of computations and the risk of errors?

Anyway, with widespread use of computers, Iphones, Ipads, etc., we all walk around with a complex computer, so that should mean that metric measures are redundant. The whole point of metric was to make calculations easier, i.e. based on 10, 100, etc., which is fine. But a computer would be able to deal with imperial calculations quickly too and now we all carry around a computer with us, we don't need a simple "in the head" method of calculation anymore do we? In any case, with dumbing down, I think people still need to use their computers for "simple" metric calculations, so the moment of metric being simpler has passed us by.
 
Last edited:

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,654
Location
Nottingham
When you move to metric, you need accurate measuring equipment and computer chips to handle to calculations. That's fine when we have such equipment to hand, but if, for whatever reason, such equipment isn't available, the average bloke in the street won't have a clue. Compare that to imperial, where massive strides in human development were made without expensive and complex measuring and calculating gizmos.

The whole point of metric was to make calculations easier, i.e. based on 10, 100, etc., which is fine. But a computer would be able to deal with imperial calculations quickly too and now we all carry around a computer with us, we don't need a simple "in the head" method of calculation anymore do we?

Aren't you contradicting yourself here?
 

Johnuk123

Established Member
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
2,800
Everyone IS allowed their own opinion, I stated mine, might be old fashioned like me at 58yrs, but that's what I think. I'm allowed to think and state an opinion, without getting flamed for it? This thread was originally in the OP asking about persons opinions on the subject.
Something wrong with that ??? (shame no finger smilie) :lol:

No nothing wrong at all, you carry on having an opinion which might differ from others.
 

Harbon 1

Member
Joined
30 Apr 2011
Messages
1,020
Location
Burton on Trent
I tend to be able to visualise something better if it's imperial. As in if something is so many kilometres away, I wouldn't know how far tha is relatively, I'd know how many metres it was, but I can visualise miles better.

Imperial is just classic British, a chain is the distance between the stumps on a cricket pitch. I like that :lol:
 

Liam

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
1,245
Degrees for angles work particularly well because they allow so many commonly used angles in geometry to be expressed as conveniently sized integers, without any fractional part. Eg. 90 degrees for a right angle, 60 degrees for the angle in an equilateral triangle etc. Any decade-based unit would lose that convenience - which is why there's no serious movement to replace degrees.

Except in maths and the sciences, where radians are usually used beyond school level.
 

ert47

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2010
Messages
688
Baking a cake, give me grams/millilitres and you'll get a cake. Give me ounces/fluid ounces, and I'll give you a blank stare. Give me measurements in cups and you'll get a punch! <D
 

Liam

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
1,245
Why has the Fahrenheit scale been largely abandoned, where other imperial units have not? Other than watching U.S. television shows, or a secondary unit on cooking instructions I can't remember the last time I read or heard anything in Fahrenheit.
 

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,856
My way of doing it is a bit odd as I can only picture metric over short distances or imperial over long ones, so I can visualise and use metres but not yards, and miles but not kilometres...

Anything for volume etc is done in metric, aside from a pint I have no idea whatsoever what an imperial measurement looks like.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,461
Everyone IS allowed their own opinion, I stated mine, might be old fashioned like me at 58yrs, but that's what I think. I'm allowed to think and state an opinion, without getting flamed for it? This thread was originally in the OP asking about persons opinions on the subject.
Something wrong with that ??? (shame no finger smilie) :lol:

No one is saying that there is anything wrong with however you feel about this subject. What some people object to is using "Britishness" as a barrier to adopting the metric system.

Whether the metric system is more convenient depends on the context. base-10 systems are much easier to calculate in one's head than base-12, or base-60, does not divide as well into 3, but divides much better into 5.

With things like money, where frequent mental arithmetic of additions and subtractions are performed, it is far better to have a metric system.

Metric systems are also easier to remember by and large, with fixed prefixes having an identical relationship to the base unit.

Adopting a metric system does not mean that we are losing "Britishness", whatever that is supposed to mean. What means to be British evolves over time. If I suddenly start measuring things in kilometres, does that suddenly make me less British than a minute ago? At least for the foreseeable future, chances are they will run alongside imperial units, unless there are specific reasons why they cannot given the circumstances. For example, if kilometres are adopted, they are more than likely to be displayed alongside miles, so one needn't worry unduly that they suddenly do not understand the world overnight. Just look at pounds and kilograms. They have happily coexisted for god knows how long, and there is no reason why this practice would be discontinued.

Except in maths and the sciences, where radians are usually used beyond school level.

Try using degrees, and beautiful equations suddenly become all clumsy and nasty. In science, whole numbers are absolutely not the holy grail.
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,754
Location
Essex
I work in both - concentrations in mg/ml, volumes in mL or L. I use kPa as well as mmHg.

Metric wins out on ease of conversion and mental arithmetic in stressful situations though without a calculator nearby.
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
17,835
Location
Epsom
You must be thinking of a different one.

The one referred to here was the Mars Surveyor '98 fiasco in which both probes (one orbiter and one lander) crashed into the surface of Mars within a few months of each other.

Yes, I'm thinking of one of the earlier ones from roughly around the 1970s; I tend to forget that most of the members on this forum are somewhat younger than my 47 years!





[/B]
Argh...your not one of those who says "I'm One Metre 80 Tall" are you <D

No, because I'm about 1m75 tall.

I understand weights in kg ( including my own! ) but seriously struggle with pounds, ounces and stones.
 
Last edited:

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
I have little to choose from between a mile and a kilometer - they are both counted in decades (the thousand paces to the mile seems to have been lost a long time ago) but I do wish units were less arbitrary. What is the role of the 'second' of time and the 'degree' of angularity in metric counting systems? Both could be divided into units in decades.

But we should recognise that the natural world which we're trying to quantify doesn't lend itself well to division into decades. The tides will continue to cycle at about 12 hrs 25mins, a year will continue to cycle at just under 365 days, and cellular growth prefers the fibonacci series rather than decades.
The basis of decades appears to be our 10 fingers, though we could have easily have chosen 8 (omitting the thumbs) which would make some binary divisions even easier. But we have a natural empathy for 4's, 8's, 16's etc, and not for 10's. Perhaps the best illustration is the natural sympathy we have for popular music rhythm structures, seeming being able to recognise the beats of 4 x 4 bars and 4 x 4 x 4 without any conscious effort.

I'll need some persuasion that 10's deserve any special status in our measuring systems, but I have no preference between imperial or metric units.

You're right, I only quoted this to point out that all the SI units except the kilogram are based on natural constants and I was watching a program which says they may be changing that soon (interestingly one of the proposals was to define it as the number of atoms of one isotope in a given volume which would be interesting at it'd tie to the mole)

[/B]

Argh...your not one of those who say's "I'm One Metre 80 Tall" are you <D

Heights and weight have survived largely unscathed - or am I out of touch :p

Sadly not although your grammar is in the first line ;)

I am one of those people who measures himself in metric but I use centimetres "I'm 188cm tall" (followed by a blank look and "about 6 foot" :( ). I am also approximately 100kg

When you move to metric, you need accurate measuring equipment and computer chips to handle to calculations. That's fine when we have such equipment to hand, but if, for whatever reason, such equipment isn't available, the average bloke in the street won't have a clue. Compare that to imperial, where massive strides in human development were made without expensive and complex measuring and calculating gizmos.

It's also a weakness of the imperial system that it evolved with human development - it's most obvious when we talk about objects that are too small or too large for humans to comprehend. IIRC the nautical mile is the longest imperial measure whereas the parsec is the metric system's and the latter has the advantage of being able to tack on SI prefixes.

I'm an accountant, and I see lots of people start up limited companies with 100 shares. Looks a nice round figure doesn't it? Easy enough to halve when a second investor comes in, to make 50:50, but what happens with the third? Suddenly we have 33 1/3 each. OK, easy enough to handle with computers, but looks messy and causes unnecessary complication. If a shareholder sells half his shares, to say his wife, then they'd have 16 2/3 each. Far better to start with 360, which turns into 120 over 3 people then 60 between husband and wife, allowing for easy transfer of 30 to each of their children. See how quickly and easily an "imperial" measure can be dividend and subdivided without the complications of computations and the risk of errors?

I'll defer to your professional expertise but you're assuming an equal number of shares are being bought/sold. If shares were sold as a percentage then 100 is surely the best number? Second investor wants 49%? They get 49 shares.


Anyway, with widespread use of computers, Iphones, Ipads, etc., we all walk around with a complex computer, so that should mean that metric measures are redundant. The whole point of metric was to make calculations easier, i.e. based on 10, 100, etc., which is fine. But a computer would be able to deal with imperial calculations quickly too and now we all carry around a computer with us, we don't need a simple "in the head" method of calculation anymore do we? In any case, with dumbing down, I think people still need to use their computers for "simple" metric calculations, so the moment of metric being simpler has passed us by.

Using powers of 10 in a base 10 system will always be easier than imperial and can be done in one's head which saves time

Except in maths and the sciences, where radians are usually used beyond school level.

Degrees are a pain in the backside. Radians are good but I feel they don't get wider use because it's hard to visualise multiplications of pi. Radians make a lot of sense - it avoids extra work in calculus and I believe in De Moivre's theorem.

Baking a cake, give me grams/millilitres and you'll get a cake. Give me ounces/fluid ounces, and I'll give you a blank stare. Give me measurements in cups and you'll get a punch! <D

Pretty much this although I still use gas marks on my oven :oops:
 

PermitToTravel

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2011
Messages
3,042
Location
Groningen
I'll defer to your professional expertise but you're assuming an equal number of shares are being bought/sold. If shares were sold as a percentage then 100 is surely the best number? Second investor wants 49%? They get 49 shares.
Use 1200 shares and get the best of both worlds :D
Degrees are a pain in the backside. Radians are good but I feel they don't get wider use because it's hard to visualise multiplications of pi. Radians make a lot of sense - it avoids extra work in calculus and I believe in De Moivre's theorem.
If I recall correctly De Moivre's theorem works just fine with degrees although Euler's formula, from which it is derived, requires conversion to radians.
 

ac6000cw

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2014
Messages
3,910
Location
Cambridge, UK
Most imperial measures are different in the US. Distance and weight are exceptions, although the Americans prefer feet to yards and pounds to stones.

The US practice of quoting rail vehicle weights in pounds always feels a bit silly (286,000 lbs makes a large number, but 130 tonnes feels more sensible - the standard maximum gross freight car weight), and the US uses 'short' tons (2000 lbs) just to add to the confusion for those across the pond.

And of course US 'zero-degree' weather is pretty cold ;)
 

ert47

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2010
Messages
688
Many people cannot multiply 12 and 49 in their head.

I remember in school when we had maths tests where we would have to give an estimated answer for an equation (in this case 12*50). I always took the time to work out the most accurate answer.

And promptly got the question wrong. :lol:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top