Summons for sitting in first class carriage

[DaveNewcastle]

If you want to, or feel the need to sit in First Class, then buy a first class ticket.

I'm glad someone got to this crucial factor in the reasoning!
Yes. First Class is there for a reason, and some of us choose that option. Personally, I find it to be good use of my money (and for one I'm not referring to catering) and it makes me a more productive person, a calmer person, and an utterly stress-free person, able to think as clearly as ever I can. Travel in Standard class tends to be the opposite, and sometimes I choose Standard. (I made four journeys on East Coast today, 3 in First, and one in a very empty Standard. I am satisfied that I made the appropriate choices)

Actually I dont think its at all fair, if the train is full and there are empty seats then it should be ok to sit on them, . . . .

. . . . Or maybe get rid of first class entirely on local trains, to give us all more space! Who needs elitism on a 20 minute train journey.

Why do you think it is elitism? It is a customer-friendly choice that is on offer. Some will make one choice, and others will make the other choice. I welcome opportunities for consumer choice across all aspects of the market place. And equally, I support the enforcement of policies which ensure that consumers pay the price for the product that they choose, and not the price for a lesser product.

I appreciate that there are several political ideologies which challenge market choices for citizens, but an after-the-event dispute when one service was taken though another service's fare was paid, is not the time or place to raise those challenges.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe we should only have value food in supermarkets too, as it's outrageous to offer 'finest' food for the rich?

 

[455driver]

Maybe we should only have value food in supermarkets too, as it's outrageous to offer 'finest' food for the rich?

Oye, you leave mu einzz beanzz alone, I dont want nun ov that cheap carp (sp)!

 

[jon0844]

Next time you're out shopping, just pay for the value beans but then go and swap them for Heinz after.

(Okay enough with the never-quite-work-Supermarket-analogies).

 

[455driver]

Next time you're out shopping, just pay for the value beans but then go and swap them for Heinz after.

(Okay enough with the never-quite-work-Supermarket-analogies).

Tee hee hee!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Next time you're out shopping, just pay for the value beans but then go and swap them for Heinz after.

(Okay enough with the never-quite-work-Supermarket-analogies).

Asda home delivery substituted Heinz on my shop last week because they'd run out of home brand. I was only charged for the home brand.

Supermarket analogies really don't work

Why do you think it is elitism? It is a customer-friendly choice that is on offer.

There's an argument to be had that first class on commuter trains is a waste of capacity, and should be abolished. FGW are cutting first class carriages for that reason. But that isn't a reason for taking a product you've not paid for.

 

[Emyr]

Asda home delivery substituted Heinz on my shop last week because they'd run out of home brand. I was only charged for the home brand.

Supermarket analogies really don't work

That one does, the operator decided to address a lack of availability of one product with a comparable but more expensive product, but the key point is that it's their decision to make, not the customer's.

 

[Hadders]

Asda home delivery substituted Heinz on my shop last week because they'd run out of home brand. I was only charged for the home brand.

That's like 1st class being declassified

 

[Saint66]

Waitrose will also swap your ordered items for more expensive ones if they are not available... *cough* plug *cough*

 

[bb21]

I think the OP has been scared off by the incessant analogies.

 

[Squaddie]

I think the OP has been scared off by the incessant analogies.

Scared off or bored to death.

 

[fowler9]

I don't think first class is elitist, however I think on some services it is questionable to provide it. FTPE for example, often very overcrowded with an empty first class section. The argument for having trains with the doors positioned where they are is that it is somewhere between a commuter service and a long distance one. Arguing against that however, the 2 times I actually used first class it was full. Ha ha. Complicated no doubt.

 

[island]

I think the OP has been scared off by the incessant analogies.

I think that his post saying he's sorted got lost in them.

Matter resolved, a £50 fine and no court court big relief..I understand that many avoid fares but this is a really harsh process for those that made a simple mistake or needed to rest for whatever reason...surely a second chance to pay the fine of £20 in a two week period would be better..my partner avoids FCC now so they lost a customer....But we learned something new re the classification and being more aware of the trains you catch so thanks

I'm glad you got it resolved, although it did seem to me like there might have been a cheaper way out with the declassification issue.

For what it's worth, the reason the cost of settlement tends to be higher at a later stage in the process is to defray the higher administration costs that have been incurred by then.

 

[trainophile]

I don't think it's unreasonable for a passenger, on finding no seat in Standard class, upgrading to First on payment of an appropriate excess. The OP's friend's problem would have been that (s)he had no means of payment, even if such an option were permitted on their route.

As for "if you want to travel in First, buy a First ticket" - most people are quite happy to travel in Standard as a regular thing, but what they don't expect to have to do is stand for the duration of their journey. By implying they should by default buy a First ticket or risk standing, unless they know the service is always packed then it isn't unreasonable to expect a fair chance of getting a seat. To suggest that the only way of ensuring a seat is to fork out for a First Class ticket on every occasion is a good way of putting off people who might try the train for a change from their car.

I'd be quite happy to pay £20 for an upgrade on a journey of any length if Standard was full, but if I'd bought First originally just to get a seat, and it turned out there were plenty of empty seats in Standard, I'd feel a little bit annoyed.

 

[island]

I don't think it's unreasonable for a passenger, on finding no seat in Standard class, upgrading to First on payment of an appropriate excess. The OP's friend's problem would have been that (s)he had no means of payment, even if such an option were permitted on their route.

To whom should the payment be made on a DOO train?

 

[richw]

Asda home delivery substituted Heinz on my shop last week because they'd run out of home brand. I was only charged for the home brand.

Supermarket analogies really don't work


.

Asda seem to do this a lot, I had 5 different smartprice products substituted for premium brands on my most recent delivery, but still charged at smartprice prices

 

[trainophile]

To whom should the payment be made on a DOO train?

I'm not familiar with FCC but presume this is the TOC you refer to? I'm surprised any DOO trains have First Class, as to the casual leisure traveller the perceived benefit of First amounts to something a little more than just getting a seat. No-one to dish out teas then?

If so, this puts a whole new interpretation on my understanding of the point of First Class. If the sole advantage is not having to stand, and maybe a bit more leg room, I'm not surprised people won't go out of their way to pay extra on the off-chance of not getting a seat in "Stand"ard class .

 

[jon0844]

And guards can sometimes upgrade people to first class for free, or declassify the section.

Maybe one day you could let people tap a smartcard to upgrade on a DOO train. The purchase would be time stamped, making it easy to stop those taps when seeing an RPI. Indeed, the system could be blocked during such a check. But, for now, if you've got an injury then it's up to you to put a value on the added convenience and comfort.

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[dcsprior]

I don't think first class is elitist, however I think on some services it is questionable to provide it. FTPE for example, often very overcrowded with an empty first class section. The argument for having trains with the doors positioned where they are is that it is somewhere between a commuter service and a long distance one. Arguing against that however, the 2 times I actually used first class it was full. Ha ha. Complicated no doubt.

Making a crowded commuter service std-class only may be a good idea; making a better overall use of the total space available.

Making an intercity service, which competes with air travel on a route which gets a lot of business travel, std-class only is a bad idea.

The problem with FTPE is that it's having to be both of those things (as is Cross-Country)

I've only travelled on FTPE a handful of times - the guards have dealt with the overcrowding very well, including making announcements that 1st was declassified for part of the journey.

To whom should the payment be made on a DOO train?

Oyster readers which multiply your fare by a factor of 1.5 (or some other number) perhaps?

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps a platform reader that can be tapped before boarding to ask go be charged a first class fare.

And yes it would be a disaster with people pressing it by accident (or claiming they did). We have normal readers, pink readers and these could have bowler hats on them.

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[dcsprior]

Perhaps a platform reader that can be tapped before boarding to ask go be charged a first class fare.

And yes it would be a disaster with people pressing it by accident (or claiming they did). We have normal readers, pink readers and these could have bowler hats on them.

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Having the reader on the train itself would avoid some of that confusion, as well as allowing the passenger to see how busy std was before committing to upgrade to 1st.

 

[island]

I'm not familiar with FCC but presume this is the TOC you refer to? I'm surprised any DOO trains have First Class, as to the casual leisure traveller the perceived benefit of First amounts to something a little more than just getting a seat. No-one to dish out teas then?

If so, this puts a whole new interpretation on my understanding of the point of First Class. If the sole advantage is not having to stand, and maybe a bit more leg room, I'm not surprised people won't go out of their way to pay extra on the off-chance of not getting a seat in "Stand"ard class .

Plenty of DOO trains have first class service, and the usual benefit tends to be a higher likelihood of getting a seat. Except on Heathrow Express, where first class is madness.

 

[fowler9]

Making a crowded commuter service std-class only may be a good idea; making a better overall use of the total space available.

Making an intercity service, which competes with air travel on a route which gets a lot of business travel, std-class only is a bad idea.

The problem with FTPE is that it's having to be both of those things (as is Cross-Country)

I've only travelled on FTPE a handful of times - the guards have dealt with the overcrowding very well, including making announcements that 1st was declassified for part of the journey.

Oyster readers which multiply your fare by a factor of 1.5 (or some other number) perhaps?

FTPE is not an inter city service and stopped being so a long time ago. It is not competing with aviation. Cross Country may be in some markets but if I had the money and there was a service there is no way I would be jumping on one of their voyagers out of choice.

 

[jon0844]

Having the reader on the train itself would avoid some of that confusion, as well as allowing the passenger to see how busy std was before committing to upgrade to 1st.

That's what I suggested first, but the problem is that someone could upgrade when they see a member of staff and it must be awkward to turn off the readers, as well as the cost compared to the platform.

Anyway it was a pie in the sky idea. But there must be money to be made from all those people using Oyster (and soon contactless payment cards) who simply cannot travel first class. Well, unless I presume they have a first class Travelcard loaded on?

Plenty of DOO trains have first class service, and the usual benefit tends to be a higher likelihood of getting a seat. Except on Heathrow Express, where first class is madness.

Come on, since the refurb you can have legroom like you have never imagined. There seem to be only about 2 seats per carriage. That has to be worth it, no?!

But, yes, total and utter madness. Standard on HEX is amazing and is way superior to most first class offerings elsewhere. I'm sad to say that I've often paid the extra because I enjoy being on them, even when not in any rush (or no need to be in a rush) and should use Heathrow Connect.

 

[island]

But there must be money to be made from all those people using Oyster (and soon contactless payment cards) who simply cannot travel first class. Well, unless I presume they have a first class Travelcard loaded on?

I'm almost certain you cannot have a first class ticket on Oyster.

I'm sad to say that I've often paid the extra because I enjoy being on them, even when not in any rush (or no need to be in a rush) and should use Heathrow Connect.[/QUOTE]
Or, let's be honest, the Piccadilly line...

 

[jon0844]

I'm almost certain you cannot have a first class ticket on Oyster.

I'm sad to say that I've often paid the extra because I enjoy being on them, even when not in any rush (or no need to be in a rush) and should use Heathrow Connect.

Or, let's be honest, the Piccadilly line...[/QUOTE]

I prefer not to sit on a tube train for longer than my flight

I'm far from rich, but I'll pay for HEX or HC over tube any day!

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[dcsprior]

FTPE is not an inter city service and stopped being so a long time ago. It is not competing with aviation. Cross Country may be in some markets but if I had the money and there was a service there is no way I would be jumping on one of their voyagers out of choice.

FTPE go from Edinburgh to Manchester (as do FlyBe) which is an inter city route.

 

[Tetchytyke]

FTPE is not an inter city service and stopped being so a long time ago. It is not competing with aviation

Depends how you define "intercity", I suppose. I would say that it IS an Intercity-style operator and needs to carry first class. Journeys like Manchester to Edinburgh, or Newcastle to Leeds are long-distance intercity journeys and a first class service is a must.

As for London commuter trains, I don't see the point of first class and don't see how a TOC could bring in a system where you could buy a first class ticket on board. Allowing people to "see how busy standard class is" would simply mean nobody would buy a first-class season. Most people (legitimately) in first class will be travelling from outside the Oyster area.

 

[dcsprior]

As for London commuter trains, I don't see the point of first class and don't see how a TOC could bring in a system where you could buy a first class ticket on board. Allowing people to "see how busy standard class is" would simply mean nobody would buy a first-class season. Most people (legitimately) in first class will be travelling from outside the Oyster area.

Its precisely because few people [pay for] travel in 1st class where the journey both starts and ends within the Oyster area, that I think TOCs could find ways to make this more attractive without cannibalising their existing ticket sales.

I regularly travel from East Croydon to Victoria. On a paper ticket, 1st class costs exactly 1.5 times what Std Class costs. I travel on Oyster, paying £4.80, and if there was the option to upgade on-train to sit in an almost empty 1st-class section by paying 1.5 times this amount (£7.20) then I'd sometimes do this. For each passenger that does this once a week, that's over £100 of extra revenue per year for minimum effort.

 

[fowler9]

FTPE go from Edinburgh to Manchester (as do FlyBe) which is an inter city route.

Good point. Ha ha.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Depends how you define "intercity", I suppose. I would say that it IS an Intercity-style operator and needs to carry first class. Journeys like Manchester to Edinburgh, or Newcastle to Leeds are long-distance intercity journeys and a first class service is a must.

As for London commuter trains, I don't see the point of first class and don't see how a TOC could bring in a system where you could buy a first class ticket on board. Allowing people to "see how busy standard class is" would simply mean nobody would buy a first-class season. Most people (legitimately) in first class will be travelling from outside the Oyster area.

Personally I was thinking more that the rolling stock used is not inter city style in my opinion.