"No new DMU orders in CP5"

[Jonny]

The arguments for "No new DMU orders in CP5" we keep hearing are because we don't know how readily diesel will be available in 30 years time and that electrification will progress.

Another issue is that it is unclear whether it will be "normal" (petrochemical) diesel or bio-diesel that will be available, and since bio-diesel is slightly different to "normal" (petrochemical) diesel and although bio-diesel will most likely be available, it will not come on stream as a mainstream fuel while normal diesel is still available, and it may create design issues that would need to be dealt with before finalising the design.

 

[petersi]

Thameslink stock goes as follows

319s go Northern/Great Western
25x 377s to Southeastern
29x 387 to somewhere
Around 20-25x 365 to somewhere (rumour is TPE)

No word on the 317/321 fleet but the Great Northern 313 have interested parties with Southern's 313 still in service.

Most if not all of the 319s will be compliant with disabilities rules prior to release from Thameslink on current plans.

The 25 * 377 are outside the cascade according to ITT for the Thameslink franchise. They still need to cascade 44 4 car third rail unites

 

[Class377/5]

Interesting, more old trains for the north, Wikipedia suggests these are being upgraded with accessible loos and such, so sounds possible.

Its all rumours so the bidders could prose new.

The 25 * 377 are outside the cascade according to ITT for the Thameslink franchise. They still need to cascade 44 4 car third rail unites

Of course not everything in the ITT has to come to pass. There's some differences between what Govia won on and what's in the ITT, even tho its clearly written in the ITT.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Interesting, more old trains for the north, Wikipedia suggests these are being upgraded with accessible loos and such, so sounds possible.

The Mk3s-derived-units have features that distinguish them as 'old' and that no refurb can hide - the window/door arrangement, for one, or the manual doors in the gangways. However, the Networkers, given sufficient upgrade works, will be for the most part indistinguishable from new rolling stock. If you look at this image:

and then assume that the front cab could be changed, as there have been suggestions of replacing the 319 cabs, then I think you can see what I mean. If you fitted WiFi, power sockets and new seats then I don't think anyone in the North would complain about getting 'London cast-offs'.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 25 * 377 are outside the cascade according to ITT for the Thameslink franchise. They still need to cascade 44 4 car third rail unites

That's correct, because the 25 x 377 to SE is on sub-lease terms.

(35 corrected to 25 - hope no-one was too confused...)

But that requirement for 176 DC vehicles (44 units) can be covered by some of the 319s, because the numbers listed in the DfT's table are 'DC capable' units, not 'DC only' units...

 

[edwin_m]

If you fitted WiFi, power sockets and new seats then I don't think anyone in the North would complain about getting 'London cast-offs'.

The 365s have no aircon (except in the cab) so unless this was fitted it would be a significant downgrade from the 185s and 170s if used on Transpennine routes. With the fairly long journeys and number of business users on Transpennine I think the noise and draughts from opening windows would be a major disadvantage.

Even if that was fitted, I'm sure people would complain...

 

[Haydn1971]

and then assume that the front cab could be changed, as there have been suggestions of replacing the 319 cabs, then I think you can see what I mean. If you fitted WiFi, power sockets and new seats then I don't think anyone in the North would complain about getting 'London cast-offs'.

It's not what the outside looks like, it's the interiors, the seats, the lighting, the ventilation system, the information systems, interior space, power at seats, wifi etc that makes a modern train for people - tart up the front can all ya like, it's still a 20 year old train that is a retrograde step compared to the TPE Desiro fleet, it would be another kick in the nuts for rail users in the north

 

[Class 170101]

Thameslink stock goes as follows

319s go Northern/Great Western
25x 377s to Southeastern
29x 387 to somewhere
Around 20-25x 365 to somewhere (rumour is TPE)

No word on the 317/321 fleet but the Great Northern 313 have interested parties with Southern's 313 still in service.

Most if not all of the 319s will be compliant with disabilities rules prior to release from Thameslink on current plans.

29x 387s to TPE mainly for Manchester to Scotland services. 350/4s to LM. :P

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Only trouble with replacing cabs on any class of unit is that the new crash regs might well then apply

 

[NotATrainspott]

It's not what the outside looks like, it's the interiors, the seats, the lighting, the ventilation system, the information systems, interior space, power at seats, wifi etc that makes a modern train for people - tart up the front can all ya like, it's still a 20 year old train that is a retrograde step compared to the TPE Desiro fleet, it would be another kick in the nuts for rail users in the north

I wouldn't say they should be used on TransPennine but for the sort of duties that the 319s are up to they would be fine. What I was saying was that if they underwent the Eversholt 321 refurb, which involves replacing all the seats and interior fittings, as well as fitting air conditioning and replacing the windows with single fixed panes, you would have something that is pretty much indistinguishable from a modern design. If you replaced the yellow plastic front then genuinely people, even those who wouldn't be fooled by the 321 refurb, would think they were new trains.

 

[Haydn1971]

To add, refurb up here means a lick of paint inside and out, a good vacuum inside, change the light bulbs and fix some new fabric to tatty old seats - call me a cynic, but whilst the ideas being brandished about by Eversholt and co look fantastic, my expectation of the reality is based upon various Northern refurbs

 

[Domh245]

I wouldn't say they should be used on TransPennine but for the sort of duties that the 319s are up to they would be fine. What I was saying was that if they underwent the Eversholt 321 refurb, which involves replacing all the seats and interior fittings, as well as fitting air conditioning and replacing the windows with single fixed panes, you would have something that is pretty much indistinguishable from a modern design. If you replaced the yellow plastic front then genuinely people, even those who wouldn't be fooled by the 321 refurb, would think they were new trains.

Hopefully by the time that the 365s are ready to leave TSGN, eversholt will have proven the concept of easily retrofitting modern niceties to an older design. Retrofit some Air Con, upgrade the motors for 110mph, refit the interiors, and they're ready for electric services on TPE. Just because the current Northern Franchise have tried to pass off what most would call a refresh as a refurb, doesn't mean that has to be the way forward.

 

[HSTEd]

We are swimming in useable electrical units (313, 314, 315, 319) which will be coming free soon.

The money spent on new diesels is best spent on accelerating the electrification programme - for instance by purchasing another wiring train and training its crew.

 

[Manchester77]

319s go Northern/Great Western
25x 377s to Southeastern
29x 387 to somewhere
Around 20-25x 365 to somewhere (rumour is TPE)

No word on the 317/321 fleet but the Great Northern 313 have interested parties with Southern's 313 still in service.

- I'm guessing that the Great Western part is for services around Bristol and the Thames Valley branches.
- So are the 377/5s going to great northern services (because they're dual voltage) with 25 377/1s for example going to southeastern.
- The last two are confusing because Tony Miles stated a while ago that the DfT had earmarked the 387s for TPE but if 365s are thrown into the mix then you'd have to split services between the two fleets. You'd think it'd make more sense to release the entire 365 fleet and retain the 317s for peak strengthening duties that way you don't have the ridiculous situation where you're splitting one not exactly huge fleet up into two even smaller components.
- Are you able to say whether that's just the Welsh Valleys proposal as seen in modern railways or is what you're referring to separate?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We are swimming in useable electrical units (313, 314, 315, 319) which will be coming free soon.

The money spent on new diesels is best spent on accelerating the electrification programme - for instance by purchasing another wiring train and training its crew.

Quite it does seem foolish to spend money on trains which will have a limited lifespan. I'm curios do you mean 317s because I seem to recall the 314s being mentioned in the Scotrail ITT as staying put and they would be exempt from certain standards being put forward for the new franchise (like plug sockets.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not what the outside looks like, it's the interiors, the seats, the lighting, the ventilation system, the information systems, interior space, power at seats, wifi etc that makes a modern train for people - tart up the front can all ya like, it's still a 20 year old train that is a retrograde step compared to the TPE Desiro fleet, it would be another kick in the nuts for rail users in the north

The 365s look quite modern inside anyway; even more so after the TSGN refurbishment: http://www.rail.co.uk/images/6091/original/9-standard-class-seating-in-the-new-365-by-Phil-Marsh.jpg
so with an even more extensive refurbishment you would get a very good product for the passenger. If the 365s are fitted with air con, wifi, power sockets and a modern PIS system there would be now barrier to them operating TPE services for the next 20+ years.

 

[Class377/5]

- I'm guessing that the Great Western part is for services around Bristol and the Thames Valley branches.
- So are the 377/5s going to great northern services (because they're dual voltage) with 25 377/1s for example going to southeastern.
- The last two are confusing because Tony Miles stated a while ago that the DfT had earmarked the 387s for TPE but if 365s are thrown into the mix then you'd have to split services between the two fleets. You'd think it'd make more sense to release the entire 365 fleet and retain the 317s for peak strengthening duties that way you don't have the ridiculous situation where you're splitting one not exactly huge fleet up into two even smaller components.
- Are you able to say whether that's just the Welsh Valleys proposal as seen in modern railways or is what you're referring to separate?

* Not sure where the 319s will be used but GW has been told to prepare for them
* The 377/5 are going to GN Kings Lynn/Cambridge services with the 25x 377 to SE
* The rumors for the 387/365 keep changing hence my somewhere
* 313 is Roger Ford comments mainly

The 365 fleet is to be spilt, no other way to keep the GN peak services without them. There isn't enough 317s to operate the services. How many EMUs does TPE need tho?

 

[swt_passenger]

It's probably fair to say that replacing a good proportion of the 365s with 377/5s took nearly everyone by surprise, including Modern Railways contributors such as Tony Miles.

The fact they weren't really being discussed anywhere (in the context of cascades to either the north or the west) is hardly surprising, is it?

 

[Class377/5]

It's probably fair to say that replacing a good proportion of the 365s with 377/5s took nearly everyone by surprise, including Modern Railways contributors such as Tony Miles.

The fact they weren't really being discussed anywhere (in the context of cascades to either the north or the west) is hardly surprising, is it?

Both were being discussed post 2018 with 365 for TPE or GW and 377/5 being used to provide 2tph 8 car Croydon to WCML all day service.

 

[Manchester77]

* Not sure where the 319s will be used but GW has been told to prepare for them
* The 377/5 are going to GN Kings Lynn/Cambridge services with the 25x 377 to SE
* The rumors for the 387/365 keep changing hence my somewhere
* 313 is Roger Ford comments mainly

The 365 fleet is to be spilt, no other way to keep the GN peak services without them. There isn't enough 317s to operate the services. How many EMUs does TPE need tho?

Interesting thanks

 

[swt_passenger]

Both were being discussed post 2018 with 365 for TPE or GW and 377/5 being used to provide 2tph 8 car Croydon to WCML all day service.

Well that's exactly what I meant. The 377/5s cannot provide the latter service now if they are to be used on the GN...

 

[Manchester77]

Well that's exactly what I meant. The 377/5s cannot provide the latter service now if they are to be used on the GN...

Is it possible to fit dual voltage equipment to any 377s to allow this or are there not enough 377s to cover what has already been committed

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it possible to fit dual voltage equipment to any 377s to allow this or are there not enough 377s to cover what has already been committed

In theory all 377 units are AC capable if the right equipment is added - it is after all what the '3' in the class number meant.

 

[ac6000cw]

To add, refurb up here means a lick of paint inside and out, a good vacuum inside, change the light bulbs and fix some new fabric to tatty old seats - call me a cynic, but whilst the ideas being brandished about by Eversholt and co look fantastic, my expectation of the reality is based upon various Northern refurbs

They haven't visibly done much more than that on the 365 'update' - and they've downgraded the flooring from carpet to vinyl, which was already looking dirty on the unit I travelled on yesterday.

The older 'Bed-Pan' 317s (with the rectangular ventilation hoppers) will be 35 years old soon - time for the scrapheap I think unless some serious (expensive) re-engineering is done to add air-con and other modern passenger amenities, which hardly feels worthwhile for 5 years more life. Maybe worth it for the later 317s as they are 4-5 years younger.

 

[HSTEd]

Those units are still superior to many pieces of rolling stock.

 

[Manchester77]

In theory all 377 units are AC capable if the right equipment is added - it is after all what the '3' in the class number meant.

I was meaning whether the main southern 377 fleet could raided of some units for the Milton Keynes services thus being given dual voltage equipment.

 

[swt_passenger]

I was meaning whether the main southern 377 fleet could raided of some units for the Milton Keynes services thus being given dual voltage equipment.

Equally possible, yes, but it really depends whether they expect the 'GN units' to ever go back on the Southern metals. They might not need to be dual, just AC, I'd say we just don't know.

The extra Milton Keynes services are no longer in the published plans though - they stick with 'some strengthening' in that latest stuff. Although that doesn't mean they won't be started later.

 

[Manchester77]

Equally possible, yes, but it really depends whether they expect the 'GN units' to ever go back on the Southern metals. They might not need to be dual, just AC, I'd say we just don't know.

The extra Milton Keynes services are no longer in the published plans though - they stick with 'some strengthening' in that latest stuff. Although that doesn't mean they won't be started later.

Good point although it is a shame that the major strenghing previously suggested isn't a main plan.

 

[northwichcat]

How many EMUs does TPE need tho?

Illustrative example for TPE in HLOS is:

* Hourly Manchester Airport to Scotland service (TPE consultation document suggests 2/3 services to be Edinburgh services and 1/3 to be Glasgow)
* 2 Hourly Liverpool to Scotland service (portion working with Manchester Airport to Scotland services north of Preston.)
* Half-hourly Newcastle to Liverpool service
* Half-hourly Manchester Airport to York via Victoria service
* Hourly Piccadilly to Selby semi-fast service
* Hourly Piccadilly to Hull semi-fast service. (Shown as a diesel service but may change if Selby-Hull electrification gets approval. Consultation also includes option for running beyond Piccadilly.)

Note the semi-fast services on North TPE would call at around 5 stations between Manchester and Leeds, the rest would only call at Huddersfield.

Not sure exactly how many units that would require but it's worth remembering 4 cars won't be enough on the busiest Manchester Airport to Scotland services south of Preston and may not be enough on certain North TPE services even with more services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Illustrative example for TPE in HLOS is:

* Hourly Manchester Airport to Scotland service (TPE consultation document suggests 2/3 services to be Edinburgh services and 1/3 to be Glasgow)
* 2 Hourly Liverpool to Scotland service (portion working with Manchester Airport to Scotland services north of Preston.)
* Half-hourly Newcastle to Liverpool service
* Half-hourly Manchester Airport to York via Victoria service
* Hourly Piccadilly to Selby semi-fast service
* Hourly Piccadilly to Hull semi-fast service. (Shown as a diesel service but may change if Selby-Hull electrification gets approval. Consultation also includes option for running beyond Piccadilly.)

Note the semi-fast services on North TPE would call at around 5 stations between Manchester and Leeds, the rest would only call at Huddersfield.

Not sure exactly how many units that would require but it's worth remembering 4 cars won't be enough on the busiest Manchester Airport to Scotland services south of Preston and may not be enough on certain North TPE services even with more services.

That presumes Northern will operate Manchester Airport-Blackpool.
There's also the Windermere operation to consider.

 

[northwichcat]

That presumes Northern will operate Manchester Airport-Blackpool.
There's also the Windermere operation to consider.

Yes there's different options. Until the options are finalised then it's difficult to say how many EMUs TPE would need as well as 20-25 x 365s.

There's also a possibility that if Selby-Hull isn't electrified in CP5 that what's shown as the Hull semi-fast in the HLOS will get terminated at Leeds/Selby and run as an EMU service with a diesel Leeds-Hull service and Hull retaining it's direct Manchester service via a diversion of South TPE.

 

[deltic08]

Illustrative example for TPE in HLOS is:

* Hourly Manchester Airport to Scotland service (TPE consultation document suggests 2/3 services to be Edinburgh services and 1/3 to be Glasgow)
* 2 Hourly Liverpool to Scotland service (portion working with Manchester Airport to Scotland services north of Preston.)
* Half-hourly Newcastle to Liverpool service
* Half-hourly Manchester Airport to York via Victoria service
* Hourly Piccadilly to Selby semi-fast service
* Hourly Piccadilly to Hull semi-fast service. (Shown as a diesel service but may change if Selby-Hull electrification gets approval. Consultation also includes option for running beyond Piccadilly.)

Note the semi-fast services on North TPE would call at around 5 stations between Manchester and Leeds, the rest would only call at Huddersfield.

Not sure exactly how many units that would require but it's worth remembering 4 cars won't be enough on the busiest Manchester Airport to Scotland services south of Preston and may not be enough on certain North TPE services even with more services.

What has happened to Manchester-Middlesbrough?