Passengers - would you report a fare dodger?

[Mutant Lemming]

Well, if it's not cyclists defending their law breaking by pointing out motorists break the law too and are more dangerous, we have people that seem to believe that the police can only concentrate on really serious crimes, like burglars, muggers and presumably murderers and rapists.

And do they prioritise rapists over burglars when resources are stretched, or just ignore all other crimes completely?

If someone said to a police officer 'Haven't you got anything better to do than do me for xxxx' then they should expect the reply 'Yes, and thanks to you I'm not able to'.

I am a firm believer that society needs enforcement of these less serious crimes, as it just sends out the message that you'll get away with it. And then you can perhaps consider becoming a bit more adventurous. Fare evasion here, a theft there, some anti-social ('What the f**k are you going to do about it?') behaviour and maybe then moving on to violence. Fare evasion today doesn't mean murder tomorrow, but I do believe there's a link between petty crime and more serious crime.

Just look at the success of any stings at stations carried out in conjunction with the police. People not buying tickets are, perhaps unsurprisingly, rather disproportionately found to be involved in other more serious crimes. It's almost as if the police should do the ticket checks, with the power to use stop and search on those that don't pay. I bet that would soon have people paying their way!

This wasn't really the point originally. The OP had no evidence (and still doesn't) that the people he was concerned about had no tickets. My point wasn't so much that people should NOT be punished for the crimes but proportionately. As I did mention, fare dodging is a crime and offenders should be punished but proportionately and not to the extent some on here seem to believe it should be.

 

[Moonshot]

Benefits fraud does effect the general public as a whole whereas ticket fraud or fare evasion only effects those that actually travel regularly on the railway and see their ticket price rise every year .

In much the same way that supermarkets see millions of pounds dissappear through shoplifting. In any open system, its inevitable that not all goods and services are going to be paid for.....and in fact businesses budget for this.

 

[muz379]

In much the same way that supermarkets see millions of pounds dissappear through shoplifting. In any open system, its inevitable that not all goods and services are going to be paid for.....and in fact businesses budget for this.

Businesses are constantly striving to get loss down as well though ,this does include the railway who are constantly looking for new ways to innovate to sell and represent tickets , be that smart card systems or mobile phone tickets , no doubt some of this will solve the problem for some of those that dont get an opportunity to pay . Unfortunately there is not a lot that can be innovated to solve the cant pay wont pay brigade in an economically viable way .

I was merely pointing out the only reason rags like the daily mail get so emotive over benefits fraud is because it is perceived to be a big issue that effects us all .whereas fare evasion is really only seen as a commuter issue .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even if a station gets very little use, it needs to have a way to buy a ticket. Yes, it might not pay for itself, but it should (IMHO) be just part of running a railway. The cost should be just part of a bigger picture.

Personally I dont agree , If the machine doesn't break even at the very minimum then installing it is actually making the situation worse . You are actually paying to get revenue off people . which if implemented on a large enough scale could actually mean fares go up to cover the additional running costs of machines and offices

It is annoying that someone should get a free ride between 2 stations just because neither are staffed and the guard if there is one doesn't get the opportunity to sell to them on the train , however would you be prepared to pay more for your journey just so that person can have a TVM at either end , if so that seems a bit spiteful more than anything .

 

[jon0844]

People need to buy tickets though. Every business probably has parts of the business that make a loss, but are deemed essential.

I don't see why it some people should get used to not having to buy a ticket.

At the very least have permits issued, even for free (thus doing away with the need for security/cash handling costs) and at least then someone getting 'stopped' later on will be expected to prove where they boarded, and roughly when.

Why have so many permit to travel machines been removed in the last ten years? Theft and vandalism? Easily solved in my opinion, if the TOC wanted to.

Of course we know the TOCs have done the maths and worked out it's better to let a few slip through the net, without seeing the bigger picture.

 

[trainophile]

A commuter who travels daily from unstaffed station A to unstaffed station C could save a fortune over a working lifetime, compared with another who travels between staffed stations B and D, even if they travel exactly the same distance. All the more so on DOO trains.

I wonder if this is reflected in local house prices!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Why have so many permit to travel machines been removed in the last ten years? Theft and vandalism? Easily solved in my opinion, if the TOC wanted to.

When they had them on the Airedale Line they were coin only and rarely used. People would when the conductor came round just produce a note or card and explain that they couldn't use the machine.

For passengers unfamiliar with the line they were also confusing, requiring them to make a payment towards a ticket of unknown cost for something that was not a ticket.

 

[Bayum]

Nope.

My business is mine, just as somebody else's business is theirs.

If they choose to travel without a ticket that's their choice.

 

[jon0844]

When they had them on the Airedale Line they were coin only and rarely used. People would when the conductor came round just produce a note or card and explain that they couldn't use the machine.

For passengers unfamiliar with the line they were also confusing, requiring them to make a payment towards a ticket of unknown cost for something that was not a ticket.

When I was young, it was generally considered okay to just pay 5p for a permit.

But I don't understand why we can't just have a free permit, thus allowing the passenger to prove where they got on (so as not to be treated like a fare evader) and also make it much harder to claim they got on just the station before (or whatever) to pay a lesser fare.

 

[muz379]

When I was young, it was generally considered okay to just pay 5p for a permit.

But I don't understand why we can't just have a free permit, thus allowing the passenger to prove where they got on (so as not to be treated like a fare evader) and also make it much harder to claim they got on just the station before (or whatever) to pay a lesser fare.

What about less frequent travellers who wouldnt know to get a permit , or people who just forget ?

Besides if they pay 5p for a permit but the guard doesn't get a chance to come and sell them a ticket and then they get off at another unmanned station then there is no real difference .

 

[jon0844]

That's true, but the idea was/is to pay the correct fare. With my free permit idea, nobody needs to worry about having any coins - and if they aren't made to pay at any point, the railway is no worse off (bar the cost of a bit of thermal paper).

And as for infrequent travellers.. you could argue that they wouldn't have a clue about ticketing at all, and so wouldn't be able to use a TVM either. So does everyone just claim to not be a regular traveller and say 'sorry, I didn't even know I had to buy a ticket?'. And I'm not sure saying you 'forgot' is a valid defence - but maybe I should try it sometime.

Given the recent thread about someone not knowing a carnet ticket had to be dated, maybe that is the way to go. How do these people even manage to find a train station in the first place?

 

[muz379]

That's true, but the idea was/is to pay the correct fare. With my free permit idea, nobody needs to worry about having any coins - and if they aren't made to pay at any point, the railway is no worse off (bar the cost of a bit of thermal paper).

And as for infrequent travellers.. you could argue that they wouldn't have a clue about ticketing at all, and so wouldn't be able to use a TVM either. So does everyone just claim to not be a regular traveller and say 'sorry, I didn't even know I had to buy a ticket?'. And I'm not sure saying you 'forgot' is a valid defence - but maybe I should try it sometime.

Given the recent thread about someone not knowing a carnet ticket had to be dated, maybe that is the way to go. How do these people even manage to find a train station in the first place?

I think everybody knows you need a ticket to travel on a train .but a permit would be introducing something new into the equation which not everyone would be aware of .

The cost of permit machines and maintenance and repairing and replacing them when they get vandalized is still going to come to something .

Its like this drive to have completely E tickets and stuff like that , how many non regular travelers are going to be able to understand and effectively use the system .


I have had people board my train telling me they couldn't find the ticket they wanted on the TVM and I have merely sold them the ticket they wanted as im aware myself that sometimes TVM's can be a bit fiddly to use at the best of times for anything but the most basic of tickets so if you dont regularly use them im prepared to make a concession and not charge them the full fare even if they got on at a station with a TVM

 

[jon0844]

TVMs are quite hard to use, because nobody has ever properly designed a user interface for them - and probably never well.

There are loads of people who could design a better, more intuitive, system that would cater to total novices and experts alike - but it will cost money.

A PTT machine that has no cash handling, rather like car parks that give free parking for a set time but you must still print a free ticket, would be less susceptible to damage.

Many stations don't help by having loads of posters and adverts mixed up, but if you had every station having a standardised 'welcome' board giving key information - including the location of ticket machines, times of operation, and what to do if you can't get a ticket or don't have a card/cash, then people would then know.

I've travelled to many countries and the first time I visit any of them, whether it's a train station or airport, I won't know my way around or (in the case of public transport) how things work. You can usually find out, and don't generally just get on a train and chance it.

 

[muz379]

TVMs are quite hard to use, because nobody has ever properly designed a user interface for them - and probably never well.

There are loads of people who could design a better, more intuitive, system that would cater to total novices and experts alike - but it will cost money.

A PTT machine that has no cash handling, rather like car parks that give free parking for a set time but you must still print a free ticket, would be less susceptible to damage.

Many stations don't help by having loads of posters and adverts mixed up, but if you had every station having a standardised 'welcome' board giving key information - including the location of ticket machines, times of operation, and what to do if you can't get a ticket or don't have a card/cash, then people would then know.

I've travelled to many countries and the first time I visit any of them, whether it's a train station or airport, I won't know my way around or (in the case of public transport) how things work. You can usually find out, and don't generally just get on a train and chance it.

I agree even as a railway employee TVM's are a pain , it doesn't help that each TOC's has a different User interface . At Man Pic alone you have types owned by virgin and types owned by northern with different UI's .

Some stations have them in a silly location as well .

More standardized railway environment on busier stations would be a good thing , although the type of low footfall unmanned stations with no TVM we are talking about are hardly multi platform complex affairs you have one platform for up direction and one platform for down direction .


Oh I agree the equipment for a permit itself would be easy enough to use , and non complicated just hit a button and get a permit . But the actual concept of having to get a permit before you travel and then using it as your proof of boarding location would be lost on some infrequent travellers unless you spend loads advertising it , and you might as well just spend that money on TVM's. Not to mention it doesnt matter how simplistic a machine is to operate if vandals decide they want to break it and steal the receipt roll from inside they will do just that . Leaving it out of action till reported and repaired .

 

[Tim R-T-C]

TVMs are quite hard to use, because nobody has ever properly designed a user interface for them - and probably never well.

Certainly the mini card-only TVM at Steeton & Silsden doesn't help by kindly notifying you that a cheaper ticket is available - Off-peak day return - when buying a Manchester ticket at 6am.

Indeed it similarly offers an Anytime fare on a ticket to Thirsk when an off-peak is valid on this route.

Not to mention the absence of pretty much all rover and ranger tickets.

I have been travelling by train for years and I still need to use the National Rail app at times to work out what ticket I need for a particular route.

 

[Moonshot]

Certainly the mini card-only TVM at Steeton & Silsden doesn't help by kindly notifying you that a cheaper ticket is available - Off-peak day return - when buying a Manchester ticket at 6am.

Indeed it similarly offers an Anytime fare on a ticket to Thirsk when an off-peak is valid on this route.

Not to mention the absence of pretty much all rover and ranger tickets.

I have been travelling by train for years and I still need to use the National Rail app at times to work out what ticket I need for a particular route.

Which goes back to the point that ticketing per se is so complicated in the first place....

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Which goes back to the point that ticketing per se is so complicated in the first place....

Problem is, simplifying would undoubtedly see ticket prices rise, the all-day off-peak flows disappearing in favour of higher prices on all trains before 0930 for example.

What is needed is a smart TVM system that knows the time and the likely trains a passenger is using and will recommend to them the particular ticket they need.

I'm sure there are many occasional users at unstaffed stations who have been burned or just confused by ticket machines in the past and would hold off buying a ticket until they board the train, then when the conductor never appears they get an unintentional free ride.

 

[jon0844]

All TVMs need to firstly be upgraded to capacitive touchscreens, and then powered by hardware that doesn't mean you're already playing catchup after pressing the first icon.

Since TOCs added the ability to start a journey from another station, we have an option tucked away at the bottom right (maybe different on other systems?) and then you have to select the start station before then starting over.

When you have the popular fares on the front page, obviously a lot of fares won't be shown, but finding them can be a real mission. You search for your destination and as you type, it drills down, but also moves them about - so thanks to the lag, you see the station you want, but - oh - it moved and you've selected the wrong one. Back to the start with you!

Any half decent system would let you progress and also step back or amend things, perhaps enabling you to compare prices. Heck, before you ask Apple, Google, Microsoft or any competent games/application developer to design a system, just get some ideas from the online booking engines.

Let people select stations by their three digit code, now that they're featured on timetables and route maps. It's also a great way for make sure you've got the right station that way, and sites that have Google maps and 'how to get to us' pages can put the code up, thus stopping people going to the wrong place because it was in another county, or similar spelling.

Start out with a wizard and expert mode, so commuters can buy the ticket they always get in seconds, and those that don't know can be guided along. You don't even need live running information for this, but many are now connected so they can report faults etc.

And, finally, one standard interface for all machines. When a company bids to sell a machine to the railway, it must provide it with the software set by whoever wants to take that responsibility (ATOC?) just like Sky does, YouView does and to a certain degree Freeview and Freesat. By all means have sections that can be customised, but let's not have a station where you have two machines with one UI and another with a different one!

Throw in a scanner to let you buy a ticket by scanning a QRCode (or similar) on your phone to speed up regular purchases or season ticket renewals and you're really making progress.

Thing is, a lot of TVMs are probably already capable of doing all that. They have the right screen that is responsive and a suitably fast CPU to manage everything I've said and lots more I haven't thought of in the ten minutes of composing this post.

 

[Moonshot]

All TVMs need to firstly be upgraded to capacitive touchscreens, and then powered by hardware that doesn't mean you're already playing catchup after pressing the first icon.

Since TOCs added the ability to start a journey from another station, we have an option tucked away at the bottom right (maybe different on other systems?) and then you have to select the start station before then starting over.

When you have the popular fares on the front page, obviously a lot of fares won't be shown, but finding them can be a real mission. You search for your destination and as you type, it drills down, but also moves them about - so thanks to the lag, you see the station you want, but - oh - it moved and you've selected the wrong one. Back to the start with you!

Any half decent system would let you progress and also step back or amend things, perhaps enabling you to compare prices. Heck, before you ask Apple, Google, Microsoft or any competent games/application developer to design a system, just get some ideas from the online booking engines.

Let people select stations by their three digit code, now that they're featured on timetables and route maps. It's also a great way for make sure you've got the right station that way, and sites that have Google maps and 'how to get to us' pages can put the code up, thus stopping people going to the wrong place because it was in another county, or similar spelling.

Start out with a wizard and expert mode, so commuters can buy the ticket they always get in seconds, and those that don't know can be guided along. You don't even need live running information for this, but many are now connected so they can report faults etc.

And, finally, one standard interface for all machines. When a company bids to sell a machine to the railway, it must provide it with the software set by whoever wants to take that responsibility (ATOC?) just like Sky does, YouView does and to a certain degree Freeview and Freesat. By all means have sections that can be customised, but let's not have a station where you have two machines with one UI and another with a different one!

Throw in a scanner to let you buy a ticket by scanning a QRCode (or similar) on your phone to speed up regular purchases or season ticket renewals and you're really making progress.

Thing is, a lot of TVMs are probably already capable of doing all that. They have the right screen that is responsive and a suitably fast CPU to manage everything I've said and lots more I haven't thought of in the ten minutes of composing this post.

No disrespect , but any non tech ordinary member of the public would not have a clue at what you have just posted.....and I would like to ask what is a QR code?

 

[jon0844]

I think plenty of people know what a barcode or QR code is, but it doesn't matter one bit if people don't (I think the railway uses Aztec codes FWIW though, and like it or not, you'll be seeing them more in the future when they're printed on tickets).

They're the codes you see on lots of letters, advertisements and anyone with a smartphone is probably aware of them. Even my parents in their 60s know what they are, having used them to gain entry to places/events with e-tickets. Think of them as barcodes that can contain far more data (text, numbers and some special characters). Aztec codes I believe can be encrypted.

But I repeat again, it doesn't matter as what I said was that people who want to use the machines quickly - i.e. those that are clued up - have a method of quickly buying a ticket, or buying another ticket.

The rest of what I said referred to making it easier for people who have NEVER set foot on a railway station before to buy the right ticket as long as they know where they want to go, and if you support the standardised three digit codes (just like people search for airports when booking online) then people can be told where they need to go by those, and have less chance of making a mistake.

 

[Moonshot]

I think plenty of people know what a barcode or QR code is, but it doesn't matter one bit if people don't (I think the railway uses Aztec codes FWIW though, and like it or not, you'll be seeing them more in the future when they're printed on tickets).

They're the codes you see on lots of letters, advertisements and anyone with a smartphone is probably aware of them. Even my parents in their 60s know what they are, having used them to gain entry to places/events with e-tickets. Think of them as barcodes that can contain far more data (text, numbers and some special characters). Aztec codes I believe can be encrypted.

But I repeat again, it doesn't matter as what I said was that people who want to use the machines quickly - i.e. those that are clued up - have a method of quickly buying a ticket, or buying another ticket.

The rest of what I said referred to making it easier for people who have NEVER set foot on a railway station before to buy the right ticket as long as they know where they want to go, and if you support the standardised three digit codes (just like people search for airports when booking online) then people can be told where they need to go by those, and have less chance of making a mistake.

I suspect if I went round to all 56 houses on my avenue tomorrow and asked them what the 3 digit code was for Blackpool North, I d stick my mortgage on nobody saying BPN - or indeed having a clue what I was on about. Can you see what Im getting at here? I work in this industry every day at the coalface so to speak, and the one thing that stands out more than anything else is passengers percieve the railway as an alien environment - and to prove the point , I ve lost count of the number of times that I ve appeared at Salford Crescent on the back of a train and a passenger has asked me " Which one is platform 2 ? "

If a passenger is suffering an information deficit on what appears to be the most simplest situation to find out for yourself, what chance does the industry have in introducing complex technology irrespective of how easy the interface appears to be to those who have designed it?

 

[jon0844]

Do you have the codes on all your route maps and timetables now? FCC does and I think many other TOCs now do.

So it would make sense for someone running a site to have the code on the 'how to get to us' page, or an email, so that someone can either enter the code - or at least know it's correct if the code is shown in brackets afterwards.

I can't believe that everyone you deal with is that clueless, and I repeat for a third time that all of these things are just extras to help people. I have never said anyone needs to know or use a QR/Aztec code, or enter three digit codes, but there's absolutely no harm in the machine having support for them.

Any online booking engine will let you search by code, and show them. They've been in use in the airline industry for goodness knows how long. But you can still always search the old fashioned way too, but I think you're either surrounded by people who have never seen a smartphone or used the Internet, or I'm surrounded by people who are bordering on genius.

 

[Moonshot]

What is needed is a smart TVM system that knows the time and the likely trains a passenger is using and will recommend to them the particular ticket they need.

I'm sure there are many occasional users at unstaffed stations who have been burned or just confused by ticket machines in the past and would hold off buying a ticket until they board the train, then when the conductor never appears they get an unintentional free ride.

Above was posted by RTC Tim at 00.10am....

Now isnt is true that Oyster cards only require the user to actually put credit on the card? By providing touch in and touch out posts, there is no need for a passneger to go anywhere near a ticket office, a TVM, a conductor or whatever.....scale that up to the national rail network and hey presto......so much easier.

 

[Parallel]

I agree TVMs need to be fairly standardised in terms of interfaces. I can use the TVMs at Bath Spa station very easily yet the first couple of times I used the TVMs at Swindon, I struggled. I didn't understand why there were two different prices for an "off peak return" and I just find the whole lay out clumsy and confusing, and bright white and pink is a little harsh on the eye, where as the ones at Bath use a fairly dark blue.

 

[fowler9]

I would never blow someone up for fare dodging. I pay enough in train fare already, I'm not about to top that up with offering a voluntary service to the TOC as well because they can't be bothered providing a decent service. If fair evasion is a big enough problem I'm sure they will make sure they are dealing with it.

 

[Squaddie]

Let people select stations by their three digit code, now that they're featured on timetables and route maps...

No-one in the real world knows the three-letter station codes (I have no idea what the codes of my most regularly-used stations are, either), and this merely introduces a further opportunity for error.

 

[muz379]

No disrespect , but any non tech ordinary member of the public would not have a clue at what you have just posted.....and I would like to ask what is a QR code?

Did you not work in IT ?

Im from a non tech background and I know exactly what a QR code is and what he was talking about

QR codes would help those that buy tickets often like commuters buy their ticket very quickly , simply scan the barcode , pay your money

They wont work for everyone , but as an option they would decrease queues at TVM's during busy commuter times .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What is needed is a smart TVM system that knows the time and the likely trains a passenger is using and will recommend to them the particular ticket they need.

I'm sure there are many occasional users at unstaffed stations who have been burned or just confused by ticket machines in the past and would hold off buying a ticket until they board the train, then when the conductor never appears they get an unintentional free ride.

Above was posted by RTC Tim at 00.10am....

Now isnt is true that Oyster cards only require the user to actually put credit on the card? By providing touch in and touch out posts, there is no need for a passneger to go anywhere near a ticket office, a TVM, a conductor or whatever.....scale that up to the national rail network and hey presto......so much easier.

There is no need for a regular passenger to go near a booking office , what about people who use trains so infrequently that they wouldn't posses an oyster card .
In London they are used on buses as well so when getting about in London regularly having one is a necessity . But for example if I traveled to London tomorrow (not been since I was about 17) I would still need a booking office to use the public transport .

 

[jon0844]

No-one in the real world knows the three-letter station codes (I have no idea what the codes of my most regularly-used stations are, either), and this merely introduces a further opportunity for error.

You don't need to know them! It will just be another way to select a station if you do know, or if you've got it written down.

Blimey! A lot of people could design a system to be easy to use for a total novice AND an expert. What we have is something complicated trying to come over as simple by having things a like 'popular fares' page but everything else being near impossible to understand, and slow, and not make it clear AT ALL what the differences are between some tickets and others.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I would never blow someone up for fare dodging. I pay enough in train fare already, I'm not about to top that up with offering a voluntary service to the TOC as well because they can't be bothered providing a decent service. If fair evasion is a big enough problem I'm sure they will make sure they are dealing with it.

Evasion is not fair on other people that do pay their fare !

 

[meridian2]

Evasion is not fair on other people that do pay their fare !

Shoplifting is not fair on people like me who pay for their groceries.

Drinking curbs are not fair on people like me who drink responsibly.

Fare evasion is not fair on people like me who pay for their tickets, but it is not my responsibility to cater for those who can't be bothered to pay for their tickets/pay for their shopping/drink responsibly and that's where I draw the line.

 

[Squaddie]

You don't need to know them! It will just be another way to select a station if you do know, or if you've got it written down.

I take your point, but permitting stations to be entered using codes that are generally internal to the industry is (in my view) introducing complexity with little benefit other than for a few train enthusiasts.

I don't know how ticket machines work in the UK, as I haven't bought a ticket from one in years, but I assume you can start entering the name of the station and you will be presented with a list of matching stations that gradually gets shorter as you enter more letters? That, and a list of commonly-used stations, seems to me to be all you need.

But we're probably going off-topic here. Most fare-dodgers are doing so because they have made a conscious decision that they will try to get away without paying, not because the ticket machine is too complicated.