Passengers - would you report a fare dodger?

[GatwickDepress]

Supermarket comparisons are rubbish. If the TVM/ticket office are the checkouts in that metaphor, does that mean there's another checkout assistant when I reach my car, since I regularly purchase my tickets from Hastings or Bexhill from the guard despite being a PF area?

I'm amazed at how few ticket inspectors there are on FCC services saaath of Lahndon. I've seen one in all my years of travelling, and he was off-duty buying a baguette at Upper Crust! Fare dodging must be pretty rampant at times.

 

[Moonshot]

There is also a slightly perverse situation on Merseyrail as well. Its generally recognised that ticket offices are uneconomic if they fall below a certain level of users. Merseyrail have the " MtoGo " facilities where you can buy a ticket in the same transaction as a sandwicn, newspaper, drink and kit kat. But doesnt that just increase the dwell time for a passenger anyway infuriating the guy in the queue behind who just wants a ticket?

 

[yorkie]

So if the industry made it a lot easier to pay by installing smart readers at every station and issuing every passenger with a smart card that required touching in at starting station and touching out at destination, the excuse of " not having the opportinity to pay " can then be discounted?

Providing adequate top up facilities existed, then in theory yes. More chance of pigs flying though!

To an extent that is true, but then how many people do their supermarket shopping before they go to work? How often ( and I do this from time to time ) do people in a station supermarket simply abandon there purchases for queue issues because their train is due to depart in 5 mins?

Indeed!

Its such a lottery depending on the stations you travel in between .

Sometimes the TOC is guilty of providing inadequete resources just because it can get away with it .And other times there is no economic case for providing a booking office or a TVM and the only hope the railway has of collecting the revenue is a guard with a ticket machine

Yes, that's very true!

 

[muz379]

There is also a slightly perverse situation on Merseyrail as well. Its generally recognised that ticket offices are uneconomic if they fall below a certain level of users. Merseyrail have the " MtoGo " facilities where you can buy a ticket in the same transaction as a sandwicn, newspaper, drink and kit kat. But doesnt that just increase the dwell time for a passenger anyway infuriating the guy in the queue behind who just wants a ticket?

That is something that has been suggested for a wider rollout in response to ticket offices at some stations being uneconomical

One thing I wonder (I dont know because ive only ever used the shop at southport )Is if the person behind the counter is more interested in selling you a mars bar or if they are more interested in helping you with the travel inquiries or buying the cheapest ticket .

 

[edwin_m]

There is also a slightly perverse situation on Merseyrail as well. Its generally recognised that ticket offices are uneconomic if they fall below a certain level of users. Merseyrail have the " MtoGo " facilities where you can buy a ticket in the same transaction as a sandwicn, newspaper, drink and kit kat. But doesnt that just increase the dwell time for a passenger anyway infuriating the guy in the queue behind who just wants a ticket?

That would be especially true if they also sell the sort of coffee where the attendant has to start the process by picking the beans from the bush growing out back. Then again it can be pretty infuriating to be at a "normal" ticket office when the person in front is booking something complicated and/or doesn't really know what they want.

My take is that every station should have a clear notice at each entrance telling passengers what the expectation is - issuing facilities available, location, opening hours, what can be bought on the train and what penalties apply for travelling without a correct ticket. This avoids honest passengers being penalised for failing to spot an obscurely-located machine, and provides flexibility to retain on-train sales at those stations where passenger numbers are too low to justify station facilities but low enough that the conductor can cope with likely demand. If the operator penalises those failing to buy a ticket before boarding, then those stations must have facilities to sell the full range of tickets otherwise there is a perfect excuse for dodgers to claim they wanted a ticket type they couldn't buy.

I would also be in favour of drivers having control over train doors, using something similar to the Strathclyde system. Depending on risk assessment the on-train staff member might have some safety responsibilites in an emergency, but their day-to-day role would be selling tickets, providing customer service and acting as a visible staff presence. But that is probably being debated on three or four other topics already!

 

[CC 72100]

My take is that every station should have a clear notice at each entrance telling passengers what the expectation is - issuing facilities available, location, opening hours, what can be bought on the train and what penalties apply for travelling without a correct ticket. This avoids honest passengers being penalised for failing to spot an obscurely-located machine, and provides flexibility to retain on-train sales at those stations where passenger numbers are too low to justify station facilities but low enough that the conductor can cope with likely demand.

That would be a good start, making sure that the situation is clear for all. Then those who don't buy before boarding (if for example this is a PF area) know full well what it is coming to them when they meet staff on the train who insist that they pay a PF.

However, the railway does sometimes struggle with a) clear (ie. in a visible place, in simple English) and b) relevant/accurate (ie. making sure the info applies to the situation and station in question, not just a generic poster) signage.

Basically, make it clear, and the ticketless don't have an excuse.

 

[DiscoStu]

No I wouldn't, and I've no time for grasses either.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with me. If they make it without paying, fair play. If not, they get what they deserve. Simple as that in my eyes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's fair evasion, not rape.

Would you go running to the police if you saw somebody throw a crisp packet on the floor?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Would you go running to the police if you saw somebody throw a crisp packet on the floor?

When it comes to the crunch, yes

 

[Moonshot]

When it comes to the crunch, yes

ha ha ha ha !!!

 

[northwichcat]

If it costs £10000 a year to maintain a small station which doesnt generate any revenue because it has absolutely no ticket facilities whatsoever, by putting in a TVM which also costs £10000 a year but only generates £5000 per year revenue, then the overall loss has actually increased despite revenue now coming in. I realise thats a bit simplistic , but you can see what Im getting at.

One problem with the McNulty review was he suggested stations with less than 250,000 journeys per annum could lose their ticket office and used out of date LENNON data to come up with a list. He didn't look at the amount of revenue taken or what additional services the ticket office provides. I would imagine a station like Salford Central takes a lot less in revenue per passenger than a station like Wilmslow. While a ticket office like Altrincham sells a lot of PTE and Metrolink products in addition to rail products.

 

[Moonshot]

One problem with the McNulty review was he suggested stations with less than 250,000 journeys per annum could lose their ticket office and used out of date LENNON data to come up with a list. He didn't look at the amount of revenue taken or what additional services the ticket office provides. I would imagine a station like Salford Central takes a lot less in revenue per passenger than a station like Wilmslow. While a ticket office like Altrincham sells a lot of PTE and Metrolink products in addition to rail products.

Just whilst we are in that area, how many of the stations on the Bury to Manchester and Altrincham to Manchester heavy rail lines had manned ticket offices or TVMs on the last day of operation as a heavy rail line?

 

[amcluesent]

No, I wouldn't.

 

[northwichcat]

Just whilst we are in that area, how many of the stations on the Bury to Manchester and Altrincham to Manchester heavy rail lines had manned ticket offices or TVMs on the last day of operation as a heavy rail line?

I don't know the answer but do know there was also a third option for buying tickets at that time as stations usually had RPIs (or whatever they called in the 1980s) with ticket machines on the platform at busy times. TVMs at the time only sold you tickets to destinations in the local area, a bit like Metrolink TVMs rather than current rail TVMs which can usually sell tickets to any National Rail station.

 

[Moonshot]

I don't know the answer but do know there was also a third option for buying tickets at that time as stations usually had RPIs (or whatever they called in the 1980s) with ticket machines on the platform at busy times. TVMs at the time only sold you tickets to destinations in the local area, a bit like Metrolink TVMs rather than current rail TVMs which can usually sell tickets to any National Rail station.

I actually do that myself occasionally

 

[northwichcat]

Supermarket comparisons are rubbish. If the TVM/ticket office are the checkouts in that metaphor, does that mean there's another checkout assistant when I reach my car, since I regularly purchase my tickets from Hastings or Bexhill from the guard despite being a PF area?

Or smaller supermarkets without checkout staff or self-service checkouts?

 

[DownSouth]

No, I wouldn't.

The government operator I use seems to have a fairly laid back attitude to revenue. Their staff have at least twice the reason to pursue this issue as I do – the same "moral obligation" as I may theoretically have, plus the additional motivation of being paid a comfortable wage to do so. If they can't be bothered, why should I be bothered when I have no more than half the motivation that they do?

As others have said, there are additional de-motivators in the form of personal safety, and also in not knowing if there was a good reason that they didn't validate when they got on board (e.g. the recharge/ticket vending machine wouldn't work for them).

 

[jon0844]

I do believe that every trains station should have some method of buying a ticket available, and a permit/token/voucher system for when that is not working.

Even if a station gets very little use, it needs to have a way to buy a ticket. Yes, it might not pay for itself, but it should (IMHO) be just part of running a railway. The cost should be just part of a bigger picture.

And smartcards, being able to purchase tickets in advance on your mobile, or being able to buy tickets from a local shop (which would actually be useful as it might then be more practical to buy a PlusBUS ticket) are all things that should happen.

I do agree that some people currently find it hard, if not near impossible, to get a ticket before they start their journey - and may end up getting the same hassle as those who don't have a ticket at all, and didn't have any intention of getting one unless caught (and even then, may still seek to try and avoid paying by giving false details or just walking off).

Enforcement would be a lot easier, and fairer, if the only people being caught were those trying to play the system.

 

[Moonshot]

I do believe that every trains station should have some method of buying a ticket available, and a permit/token/voucher system for when that is not working.

Even if a station gets very little use, it needs to have a way to buy a ticket. Yes, it might not pay for itself, but it should (IMHO) be just part of running a railway. The cost should be just part of a bigger picture.

And smartcards, being able to purchase tickets in advance on your mobile, or being able to buy tickets from a local shop (which would actually be useful as it might then be more practical to buy a PlusBUS ticket) are all things that should happen.

I do agree that some people currently find it hard, if not near impossible, to get a ticket before they start their journey - and may end up getting the same hassle as those who don't have a ticket at all, and didn't have any intention of getting one unless caught (and even then, may still seek to try and avoid paying by giving false details or just walking off).

Enforcement would be a lot easier, and fairer, if the only people being caught were those trying to play the system.

Northern have a system of using UPFNs issued by the guard. When I was in training, we had a briefing from the debt recovery unit about these.

Northern Guards issue around 800 per month across the whole network.....in effect they are an IOU allowing the passenger up to 21 days to cough up. The vast majority of those 800 per month expire for reasons of non payment.

 

[Beveridges]

When I was young and didn't have much money, I used to fare dodge in the toilet of a 12 minute Virgin train journey whenever the conductor was making his way down the train. It was Mk3 stock at the time so you could see a long way through the train.

I used to always be in the quiet coach at the back, as that is where the conductor checked last.

After doing it for the best part of a year, a passenger who was a regular in the quiet coach reported me and the conductor came banging on the door in the bog. I got charged double the normal fare.

 

[Parallel]

Quite often my local ticket office is closed and there are no TVMs so I have to board the train and hope the guard comes around. When he/she doesn't because the train's too crowded or has other things to do, I buy at the destination station. Most of the time I leave at a barriered station where staff are happy to sell tickets, however some times I leave at a stations where the TVM is faulty/ non existent, or there are no facilities at all.

It shouldn't be this difficult to buy a ticket!

I can understand why people may board if they only have cash and their TVM only accepts card however, and I hope some discretion would be shown for this.

 

[Moonshot]

When I was young and didn't have much money, I used to fare dodge in the toilet of a 12 minute Virgin train journey whenever the conductor was making his way down the train. It was Mk3 stock at the time so you could see a long way through the train.

I used to always be in the quiet coach at the back, as that is where the conductor checked last.

After doing it for the best part of a year, a passenger who was a regular in the quiet coach reported me and the conductor came banging on the door in the bog. I got charged double the normal fare.

You have to wonder just how many passengers have not paid a fare because they didnt have the opportunity to have actually made no attempt to confess that they have made umpteen journeys free anyway once they get floored with an £80 penalty........

 

[jon0844]

The people you see with £20 in their hand when stopped presumably see it as an occupational hazard.

I've not seen that happen loads of times, but certainly quite a few. In one case, a kid (in a suit) had a suitably large grin on his face when handing over his money.

 

[Moonshot]

The people you see with £20 in their hand when stopped presumably see it as an occupational hazard.

I've not seen that happen loads of times, but certainly quite a few. In one case, a kid (in a suit) had a suitably large grin on his face when handing over his money.

Indeed they do see it as an occupational hazard.....as always a flip side to every story.

 

[Antman]

Quite often my local ticket office is closed and there are no TVMs so I have to board the train and hope the guard comes around. When he/she doesn't because the train's too crowded or has other things to do, I buy at the destination station. Most of the time I leave at a barriered station where staff are happy to sell tickets, however some times I leave at a stations where the TVM is faulty/ non existent, or there are no facilities at all.

It shouldn't be this difficult to buy a ticket!

I can understand why people may board if they only have cash and their TVM only accepts card however, and I hope some discretion would be shown for this.

But can you always buy the right ticket from a machine?

Today at Bearsted I heard a lady saying that the machine was asking for far too much for her and two children to London, she tapped on the closed ticket office window and the man came out and told her to buy her ticket on the train. "But what if I get a penalty fare?" she asked, "you won't but just tell the guard to contact me if there is any problem" he said reassuringly.

 

[Tibbs]

You have to wonder just how many passengers have not paid a fare because they didnt have the opportunity to have actually made no attempt to confess that they have made umpteen journeys free anyway once they get floored with an £80 penalty........

Why on earth would one voluntarily confess to deliberately doing something that could see you recieve a criminal record?

 

[Moonshot]

Why on earth would one voluntarily confess to deliberately doing something that could see you recieve a criminal record?

Maybe i should have added an ironic smiley to my post

 

[trainophile]

No I wouldn't, and I've no time for grasses either.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with me. If they make it without paying, fair play. If not, they get what they deserve. Simple as that in my eyes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's fair evasion, not rape.

Would you go running to the police if you saw somebody throw a crisp packet on the floor?

How about if you knew of someone who was claiming benefits they weren't entitled to? Would your leniency extend to these too?

 

[Squaddie]

How about if you knew of someone who was claiming benefits they weren't entitled to? Would your leniency extend to these too?

It's not a matter of leniency.

Fare-dodging is rife in the UK because the train operating companies seemingly can't be bothered to implement processes and procedures that would prevent it. Similarly, benefit fraud would be less of a problem if there were better processes and procedures in place.

It's frustrating when you know that someone is getting away with dishonest behaviour, but it's not Joe Public's job to act as an unpaid employee of either the train operating companies or the government.

 

[Moonshot]

It's not a matter of leniency.

Fare-dodging is rife in the UK because the train operating companies seemingly can't be bothered to implement processes and procedures that would prevent it. Similarly, benefit fraud would be less of a problem if there were better processes and procedures in place.

It's frustrating when you know that someone is getting away with dishonest behaviour, but it's not Joe Public's job to act as an unpaid employee of either the train operating companies or the government.

The public is generally more emotive when it comes to benefit fraud of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money.

 

[muz379]

The public is generally more emotive when it comes to benefit fraud of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money.

Benefits fraud does effect the general public as a whole whereas ticket fraud or fare evasion only effects those that actually travel regularly on the railway and see their ticket price rise every year .