Summons for sitting in first class carriage

[Golem2014]

Dear Forum,

I would really appreciate some advice - my partner (he's not that internet savvy) - was traveling on an oyster card from tulse hill to kings cross on a first capital connect train. The train was full and he had hurt his leg and been to minor injuries two days previously so he sat down in first class. He had never done this before. After farringdon train inspectors got on and asked his name and told him he hadn't a valid ticket for his journey. He gave his name and tried to explain about his sore leg but to no avail. At kings cross he had to follow the inspector up and out of the station as another passenger (also sitting in first class) tried to run off.
My partner didnt have any cash or cards on him and so couldn't pay the fine. There was no option to pay up in a certain time etc which i dont understand as you get this option for a parking fine.
He received a letter saying he could be summoned if didnt respond (which he did explaining re the reason he sat down and the reason he couldnt pay the initial on the spot fine). He also offered to pay a reasonable amount for the fine and inconvenience but this obviously hasn't been accepted. He tried to ring the telephone number on the letter but it was only an answer phone, he also emailed. Now he has a summons to court and with court costs. He was guilty of sitting down where he shouldn't but should he have to go to court? What should he do now? Advice appreciated.

 

[yorkie]

Now he has a summons to court and with court costs. He was guilty of sitting down where he shouldn't but should he have to go to court?

If the parties concerned are unable to reach an out of court settlement, then it will have to go to court.

I suggest he tries to contact them again, perhaps making a substantial offer, if he's very keen to keep it out of court.

It's not clear from your post what legislation is being used to prosecute.

10.9 Prosecutions

Train Operating Companies have specific legislation they can use to prosecute passengers. Some common examples of offences include:

• Travelling (or travelling over-distance) with the intention of avoiding paying the fare due (or part of the fare due)
• Failure to produce a valid ticket
• Failure to give name and address
• Altering tickets

The first of these is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act (RoRA). Merely failing to produce a ticket (no evidence of intent) is an offence under the Railway Byelaws. Failure to give name and address could come under either the RoRA or Byelaws, as appropriate. Altering tickets is also a Byelaw offence, though in serious cases it could be considered Fraud.

Offences under the Regulation of Railways Act result are recordable offences and a conviction will be disclosed if a CRB check (Standard or Enhanced) is performed.

Offences under the Railway Byelaws are not recordable offences and a conviction should not be disclosed if a CRB check (Standard or Enhanced) is performed.

For more information please see Section 8 - Legal

 

[Golem2014]

Its section 19 of the railway bylaws..made under section 219 of the transport act 2000. Presumable if he offers to settle out of court with the court costs of £120 and the fare fee of £6.10 that would be the way to proceed? I thought maybe they thought he hadnt replied to the letter as their phone only took messages...

 

[Golem2014]

PS whats a substantial offer given the original fare was only £6.10?

 

[cjohnson]

Almost every FCC train from Tulse Hill to St Pancras is timetabled as standard class only - it is possible the RPIs have made a mistake. Do you know exactly what service your partner traveled on (presumably it's detailed on the various correspondance they have received)?

 

[Golem2014]

It was around 9.10 in the morning - I think it def was a first class carriage do you mean every train is standard class only in the morning despite saying 1st clas? I rang the FCC office and finally someone answered - they had rang my partner back after the initial letter but he didnt get the message - I thought there should have been some response before a court date. he has to ring them now...

 

[bb21]

Some trains have First Class carriages but may be used on Standard Class only journeys, in which case FCC's policy is that they are declassified. For example, all Sutton loop services are Standard Class only, so any portion marked First Class is automatically declassified.

If he can remember the exact time of scheduled departure or the destination of the train, we might be able to look it up.

What was the date of the incident?

 

[Emyr]

It was around 9.10 in the morning - I think it def was a first class carriage do you mean every train is standard class only in the morning despite saying 1st class?

See this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=24737

If the timetable lists the service as Standard only, the 1st class compartment may have been declassified.

 

[Golem2014]

Ok thanks - the date was the 17th of april and the time they caught him was 9.10 so it was the 8.45 I will check thank you..

 

[bb21]

There is an 0843 Luton train which was booked to arrive at St Pancras at 0912. That train indeed conveyed Standard Class accommodation only.

Here is the performance of that train. It shows that it ran pretty much to the timetable.

There is however an 0837 Bedford service which left Tulse Hill at 0841, and arrived at St Pancras at 0904, which would have conveyed First Class accommodation. I think it is best that you check with your partner that is was definitely not that train before proceeding. If he can't remember, it may be best to ring FCC back and ask which train it was specifically.

 

[Golem2014]

I checked the time table, it seems to become first class after a certain stage of the journey if I am reading it correctly..we think it was the 8.45 from tusle hill...not sure I am we recently moved into train land and still useless at reading time tables etc...but thank you for pointing that out..that was why people were sitting in the first lass carriage up until maybe farringdon..

 

[Golem2014]

Thanks its not written on any of the letters which train it was..but the caution was given at 9.18..and I cant get through to FCC Now..

 

[furlong]

If the parties concerned are unable to reach an out of court settlement, then it will have to go to court.

(A court might take a dim view of a situation if it thinks its time is being wasted where genuine offers of reasonable out-of-court settlements were rejected.)

 

[bb21]

I checked the time table, it seems to become first class after a certain stage of the journey if I am reading it correctly..we think it was the 8.45 from tusle hill...not sure I am we recently moved into train land and still useless at reading time tables etc...but thank you for pointing that out..that was why people were sitting in the first lass carriage up until maybe farringdon..

The 0843 is Standard Class throughout. It does not magically start having First Class after Farringdon.

Are you per chance looking at the current FCC timetables? They have a squiggle towards the lower half of the table to indicate the end of off-peak restrictions which has nothing to do with classes of accommodation.

Thanks its not written on any of the letters which train it was..but the caution was given at 9.18..and I cant get through to FCC Now..

Keep trying if you can. They can be a pain to get hold of.

 

[Golem2014]

PS they dont know the train time as he had to get off the train and follow the inspector (like I said above someone else legged it and he was told to follow the inspector off the train which he did...) I cant seem to get the details on the raildar site that you have for the trains before and afterwards...thank you for your help much appreciated..

 

[bb21]

The raildar site is working for me. If the links don't work for you, go to their homepage and you can do a search for the train yourself towards the bottom of the page. You may have to accept their cookies policy to proceed. Historical data for the day in question is available.

I don't know how they can bring a case to court if they don't know which service he caught (because you could easily claim that he was on a Standard only service). Are you sure they are not trying to fob you off? They must have some details. Does your partner remember the destination of that train perhaps?

 

[Golem2014]

Thanks...my partner cant remember but thought the train was running late so it might have been the train before the 8.45 one but cant get hold of the timing on that one from the raildar site..the train before did have first class from the time table...
Hopefully it can be sorted out now we finally got thru to someone at FCC - could the inspectors have made a mistake on the classification issue...yes I think the court might take a dim view of this fingers crossed he wont have to go to court..thanks again..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The inspectors were on the train but got off - he doesn't remember as pretty full on work schedule so cant remember his own name most of the time - dont think he knew the destination, they may be trying it on maybe he can put that in his letter ie the confusion about whether the train was FC or not..

I worked out the raildar site thanks finally..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think it might have been the 7.24 from brighton as this was late and arrived at tulse hill at 8.41 and had a first class carriage thanks..

 

[Emyr]

dont think he knew the destination, they may be trying it on

If the service he was on was actually Standard-only, I would suspect ignorance rather than malice.

maybe he can put that in his letter ie the confusion about whether the train was FC or not..

Don't suggest doubt. State facts.
State he was a particular service which was standard only.

If he can't 100% say it was that specific service, state the intent to catch that train at that time, from the right platform at the right station.

 

[Golem2014]

OK will do..

If the service he was on was actually Standard-only, I would suspect ignorance rather than malice.


Don't suggest doubt. State facts.
State he was a particular service which was standard only.

If he can't 100% say it was that specific service, state the intent to catch that train at that time, from the right platform at the right station.

 

[jon0844]

I've had loads of RPIs over the years totally unaware of what service they were on, as they just jumped on part way along. They don't appear to work particular services all the time, just hop on/off and then write down the times on a log sheet (from what I've seen). Of course if they're doing a particular sting that might be different, but this sounds like a routine random check.

As someone who regularly took advantage of first class when declassified, it did take a few attempts at times to convince the RPI that I was on a particular service without first class, and always tried to remember to carry a timetable of my own.

Suffice to say that I never got a penalty fare or threat of prosecution, although I did sometimes have to stand my ground. In none of these situations did I ever move from my seat, however. Had I got off the train, I guess it could have been a little more risky from my point of view.

I wonder if identifying the train would help determine which service it was. Perhaps where first class was on the train, or whether it was noticed that the train had air conditioning, a greener interior, or information displays and automated announcements... Maybe even how long the train was?

 

[Golem2014]

Matter resolved, a £50 fine and no court court big relief..I understand that many avoid fares but this is a really harsh process for those that made a simple mistake or needed to rest for whatever reason...surely a second chance to pay the fine of £20 in a two week period would be better..my partner avoids FCC now so they lost a customer....But we learned something new re the classification and being more aware of the trains you catch so thanks

 

[jon0844]

Actually, it would be totally fair to charge a PF for sitting in first class without a first class ticket and not harsh at all. It's just that it may not have actually been first class. After all, if someone feels the need to go into first class because of the need for a seat, they - you know - buy a first class ticket!

 

[Golem2014]

Actually I dont think its at all fair, if the train is full and there are empty seats then it should be ok to sit on them, payment could easily be taken off your oyster card and you should not be treated like a criminal. Or maybe get rid of first class entirely on local trains, to give us all more space! Who needs elitism on a 20 minute train journey.

 

[cjohnson]

How would you define "full"? All seats taken, or standard class physically full to bursting?

 

[jon0844]

Actually I dont think its at all fair, if the train is full and there are empty seats then it should be ok to sit on them, payment could easily be taken off your oyster card and you should not be treated like a criminal. Or maybe get rid of first class entirely on local trains, to give us all more space! Who needs elitism on a 20 minute train journey.

Assuming 'your friend' (sorry, but when you said you couldn't call FCC, I assumed it was actually you as I can't see why FCC would talk to you about someone else's case) couldn't have just asked someone in a priority seat to give it up, stating the injury, then surely this is the perfect example of when having a section for first class means you can pay the extra (which wouldn't have been much for a short journey) to get a better chance, and probably more legroom too.

Of course, if everyone has the same opinion that first class can be ignored and used as normal, then you'd find it full too. And you'd then be somewhat upset, hence the need to police it.

It's unfortunate that Oyster has no way to allow first class travel, and maybe one day this will be addressed, but I don't see first class as elitist. There are a number of reasons why you might wish to travel in first class, and your example is just one of them. I'm assuming you're not a rich banker, lawyer or politician, as seems to be the stereotype for people who use first class (hint; you'll often see retired people, families and children in first class). While you can find some ridiculous first class open/anytime tickets, first class isn't the same sort of premium as first class on a plane. It really isn't that special, and for suburban routes, it's the chance of getting a seat that people pay for mostly.

Also, as stated, FCC has declassified first class on many services and also turned one of the two compartments on its newer fleet into standard class. The reasoning being to give more standard class seating, and finding a better balance.

 

[Yew]

After all, if someone feels the need to go into first class because of the need for a seat, they - you know - buy a first class ticket!

And of course, our railways are uniform in their approach to purchasing this upgrade, you definitely cant just go and sit in 1st and purchase onboard on some services, and be reported for prosecution for the same action on other operators services...

Oh.. Wait..

 

[Tetchytyke]

Actually I dont think its at all fair, if the train is full and there are empty seats then it should be ok to sit on them

And it is OK to sit on them...if you buy the appropriate ticket before you get on board.

Why should you get a service that you haven't paid for?

 

[Flamingo]

Actually I dont think its at all fair, if the train is full and there are empty seats then it should be ok to sit on them, payment could easily be taken off your oyster card and you should not be treated like a criminal. Or maybe get rid of first class entirely on local trains, to give us all more space! Who needs elitism on a 20 minute train journey.

If you want to, or feel the need to sit in First Class, then buy a first class ticket.

 

[Hadders]

Actually I dont think its at all fair, if the train is full and there are empty seats then it should be ok to sit on them, payment could easily be taken off your oyster card and you should not be treated like a criminal. Or maybe get rid of first class entirely on local trains, to give us all more space! Who needs elitism on a 20 minute train journey.

Your journey might be 20 minutes within the London Zones but other passengers on the same train might be making journeys lasting more than an hour on the same train, if it is for example going to or from a destination outside the zones.

 

[jon0844]

If you want to, or feel the need to sit in First Class, then buy a first class ticket.

That idea will never catch on!!

In this particular case, surely anyone with an injury would not have much problem getting someone to give up their seat in standard. Even in the peak, not every passenger is that nasty!