Ideas for South West franchise going forward

[JonathanH]

The connection at Twickenham between the Hounslow and the Kingston services is excellent, just 6-8 minutes towards Kingston and 5 minutes towards Hounslow . This means the journey can be completed in 30 minutes, and is much better than the 45-50 minutes the bus takes (of course not when it comes to the 2tph frequency!)

In contrast, the connection between Reading and Kingston services at Twickenham is appalling. The train from Reading arrives just after the Kingston train departs and the train to Reading leaves just after the Kingston train arrives meaning a 30 minute wait in either direction.

 

[infobleep]

In contrast, the connection between Reading and Kingston services at Twickenham is appalling. The train from Reading arrives just after the Kingston train departs and the train to Reading leaves just after the Kingston train arrives meaning a 30 minute wait in either direction.

They can't offer connections for everything so may be it's just not possible to offer a connection for these services.

Must be an interesting job being a timetable designer and looking at way timetables can be improved and tweaked. Not an easy job no doubt.

 

[hassaanhc]

They can't offer connections for everything so may be it's just not possible to offer a connection for these services.

Must be an interesting job being a timetable designer and looking at way timetables can be improved and tweaked. Not an easy job no doubt.

Probably more convenient to change at Clapham Junction where you have a 4tph to Kingston.

You also have the following:
For most of the day Egham has two trains towards London in 4 minutes then nothing for 26 minutes. The train from Weybridge waits at Virginia Water for 8 minutes to allow the Reading train to go in front and to give an equal 15 minute frequency between Hounslow and Barnes Bridge inclusive. This also means a 26 minute layover at Weybridge. At Reading there is a 32 minute layover as it is very hard to get a 30 minute frequency otherwise. And in both cases it limits layover time at the busy Waterloo end.

Yeah I agree timetable planning looks complicated

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Probably more convenient to change at Clapham Junction where you have a 4tph to Kingston.

You also have the following:
For most of the day Egham has two trains towards London in 4 minutes then nothing for 26 minutes. The train from Weybridge waits at Virginia Water for 8 minutes to allow the Reading train to go in front and to give an equal 15 minute frequency between Hounslow and Barnes Bridge inclusive. This also means a 26 minute layover at Weybridge. At Reading there is a 32 minute layover as it is very hard to get a 30 minute frequency otherwise. And in both cases it limits layover time at the busy Waterloo end.

Yeah I agree timetable planning looks complicated

Must me a nightmare by the time all the services of the various TOCs, ECS moves and freight are factored in

 

[Parallel]

Theses follow the FGW services so not really enough call for what is running now, never mind any more trains.

It's even worse on the way back when the SWT London Waterloo services are scheduled to depart not long after the FGW stoppers.

The 13:07 departure from Bath Spa often picks up delays to Warminster because of the frequently late running FGW Brighton service (All stations between Bristol and Salisbury), and then can be held at Bradford Junction as the Transwilts Westbury service passes. Although the order of trains calling at platform 2 at Trowbridge is meant to be Brighton, Westbury, London Waterloo they just seem to arrive in any order made more confusing now the Brighton train is usually the 159 hire in.

When the London Waterloo train leaves Bristol ahead of a delayed stopper, it's weird to see it actually pretty wedged with passengers travelling to/between Keynsham, Bath, Bradford, Trowbridge and Westbury who would have otherwise just taken the stopping Westbury or Weymouth services. Obviously the timetabling helps at/after Salisbury but it's just a bit daft and clumsy on the Bristol to Salisbury run, though I guess that isn't really SWT's primary concern. Maybe they just need more advertising with the cheap advance fares they do for the route.

 

[455driver]

In contrast, the connection between Reading and Kingston services at Twickenham is appalling. The train from Reading arrives just after the Kingston train departs and the train to Reading leaves just after the Kingston train arrives meaning a 30 minute wait in either direction.

I do that 'connection' regularly and make it about 70% of the time, the Reading normally gets hit for a coup,e of minutes following the Kingston rounder making the -1 into a +1 connection.

the annoying bit is that the train from Kingston waits there for 4 minutes and if it waited at Twickenham the passengers would at least have half a chance of making the connection.

 

[infobleep]

Will they be able to run later trains to and from Waterloo in the next franchise. Bournemouth has a 1.05am train but Monday mornings excepted, Portsmouth is only 23.45. Monday morning [aka Sunday night] it's 0.50am

Thameslink has all night services between Three bridges and Bedford. That had a choice of 2 routes north of Earlswood.

However trains from Guildford have at least 3 routes to Waterloo. 2 to Surbiton and 1 via Chertsey.

 

[hassaanhc]

Will they be able to run later trains to and from Waterloo in the next franchise. Bournemouth has a 1.05am train but Monday mornings excepted, Portsmouth is only 23.45. Monday morning [aka Sunday night] it's 0.50am

Thameslink has all night services between Three bridges and Bedford. That had a choice of 2 routes north of Earlswood.

However trains from Guildford have at least 3 routes to Waterloo. 2 to Surbiton and 1 via Chertsey.

There's a fourth via Epsom and Worcester Park too, in addition to via Cobham, via Hersham and via Chertsey.

Sent from my SM-T210 using Tapatalk

 

[infobleep]

I forgot about Worcester Park. Is this more routes than Three Bridges to Bedford, which has an hourly service during the night.

 

[306024]

......Must be an interesting job being a timetable designer and looking at way timetables can be improved and tweaked. Not an easy job no doubt.

Must me a nightmare by the time all the services of the various TOCs, ECS moves and freight are factored in

And then there is the resource planning, unit and crew diagrams, rosters and so on. It is never ending fun but very satisfying when it all comes together and you can watch it all operate.

 

[47832]

Will they be able to run later trains to and from Waterloo in the next franchise. Bournemouth has a 1.05am train but Monday mornings excepted, Portsmouth is only 23.45. Monday morning [aka Sunday night] it's 0.50am.

I think the last train to Bournemouth is 00:05 the 01:05 terminates at Southampton Central

 

[swt_passenger]

Will they be able to run later trains to and from Waterloo in the next franchise. Bournemouth has a 1.05am train but Monday mornings excepted, Portsmouth is only 23.45. Monday morning [aka Sunday night] it's 0.50am

Thameslink has all night services between Three bridges and Bedford. That had a choice of 2 routes north of Earlswood.

Is there a demand for later trains, rather than a personal preference? Does it outweigh the requirements for maintenance?

When one of the rail mags did a comparison of last trains from London on all routes a few years ago, the SWML came out as one of the best, in terms of the distance run by last trains. When that 0105 leaves for Southampton there's not much going on at any other London Terminal...

 

[infobleep]

Well that cannot longer be the case because Victoria has services during the night to Three Bridges.

The other question is, is there demand in Bedford and Three Bridges for an hourly service during the night?

I would have thought the SWML would have similar demand. Unless everyone is simply going to Gatwick Airport or Luton. However The reading line dropped their bus services to Gatwick Airport overnight, so they obviously didn't have the demand.

 

[Class377/5]

Well that cannot longer be the case because Victoria has services during the night to Three Bridges.

The other question is, is there demand in Bedford and Three Bridges for an hourly service during the night?

I would have thought the SWML would have similar demand. Unless everyone is simply going to Gatwick Airport or Luton. However The reading line dropped their bus services to Gatwick Airport overnight, so they obviously didn't have the demand.

Both airports plus going home from London means there's a demand.

 

[NSE]

Those southern services are always well used to Croydon and Purley

 

[The Ham]

The Thameslink changes are rather wide ranging and seem to affect quite a few lines, some of which previously didn't have a Thameslink service.

I just wondered what could they do with the South West franchise when it's relet.

They are already introducing longer trains so they couldn't really claim that as something the next franchise will deliver, as to South West Trains credit, they are trying to deliver it now.

I assume Cross Rail 2 will be a franchise similar in type to Cross Rail.

Cross Rail 2 will free up space into Waterloo but would they simply run more of the same or would they introduce extra routes?

Here is a link to a news story about Sirrey's asperations:
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/local-news/surrey-set-lobby-crossrail-2-5917776

Action plan:

Short-medium term:

Support train-lengthening scheme (South Western mainline)
Encourage support for extending Crossrail 2 into Surrey
Support plans for additional Gatwick service and new platform at Redhill (North Downs Line)
Lobby for longer trains (North Downs Line)
Discuss Airtrack Lite advantages for Surrey with Wandsworth Council (Heathrow)
Work with Kent County Council on possible Tonbridge-Gatwick service serving Tandridge (Gatwick)

Medium term:

Lobby for lengthening for all services to run at maximum length (South Western mainline)
28 trains per hour from Waterloo (South Western mainline)
Promote Sturt Lane Chord for direct Waterloo-Camberley services
Lengthen trains to Uckfield (Tandridge)
Possible electrification of North Downs Line
Business case for Alton-Guildford service
Business case for Park Barn and Merrow stations (Guildford)
Support western connection to Heathrow

Long term:

Woking Flyover
High speed rail link between Heathrow and Gatwick

 

[21C101]

As I understand it the Exeter Barnstaple line, which has seen massive growth and now has an hourly service) will in 2016 change to Class 158 operation and services will consequently no longer be able to operate through to Exmouth.

It seems logical to me that this line should be transferred to South West Trains. Rather than have class 158/159 services terminating at Exeter in either direction the Waterloo to Exeter hourly service would be extended to Barnstaple

This would give regular direct services from North Devon to London for the first time since 1965 and surely increase revenue still further on both lines. With Stagecoach now running buses from Barnstaple station forecourt to Bideford and Braunton every 10 minutes and to Ilfracombe every 20 minutes (routes 21/21A) with journey times little longer than the former railways to those places and town centre bus stops (rather than stations on top of a cliff or the wrong side of the river), through ticketing from London and advertising to these resorts would be a no brainer and would do much to improve their economies, which have never really recovered from the lines closing and Barnstaple being reduced to a shuttle to Exeter.

 

[infobleep]

Both airports plus going home from London means there's a demand.

So if they didn't have the airports and only coming home from London, would there be enough demand to run services during the night?

 

[Rapidash]

As I understand it the Exeter Barnstaple line, which has seen massive growth and now has an hourly service) will in 2016 change to Class 158 operation and services will consequently no longer be able to operate through to Exmouth.

Oookay, where are these 158's coming from?

 

[21C101]

Oookay, where are these 158's coming from?

As I understand it the release of 165s from London Reading electrification will release 158s for use on the Barnstaple Line in 2016.

See section 5.2 of this http://www.tarkarail.org/aspirations.pdf

 

[SpacePhoenix]

A few years ago there were services from Wareham-Waterloo, are the paths that were used now used by something else? If the paths still exist (and a 5-car 158/159 combo could be sourced), could 1 train an hour go on that path but continue to Swanage or would a normal service train (not a heritage one) not be allowed down the Swanage branch?

 

[phil281]

In contrast, the connection between Reading and Kingston services at Twickenham is appalling. The train from Reading arrives just after the Kingston train departs and the train to Reading leaves just after the Kingston train arrives meaning a 30 minute wait in either direction.

Literally outside the station entrance is the bus stop for the 281 which runs every 5 minutes to Kingston

 

[JonathanH]

Literally outside the station entrance is the bus stop for the 281 which runs every 5 minutes to Kingston

And the 285 from Feltham station for that matter. However, typically intermodal journeys cost more money.

4tph on the Waterloo to Reading line would be better but the residents of Wokingham, Sunningdale, Egham, Feltham, North Sheen, Mortlake and Barnes would probably object.

 

[hassaanhc]

And the 285 from Feltham station for that matter. However, typically intermolecular journeys cost more money.

The 65 from Richmond is probably the best idea, the 281 from Twickenham isn't too bad (both about 20-25 minutes journey time), the 285 from Feltham should be avoided (40 minutes on an E200 single decker)

 

[cle]

And the 285 from Feltham station for that matter. However, typically intermodal journeys cost more money.

4tph on the Waterloo to Reading line would be better but the residents of Wokingham, Sunningdale, Egham, Feltham, North Sheen, Mortlake and Barnes would probably object.

There used to be 2tph Waterloo to Reading via Hounslow - I don't see why these couldn't return and maybe allow the via Richmond train to drop some stops on the western half of the route.

 

[JonathanH]

There used to be 2tph Waterloo to Reading via Hounslow - I don't see why these couldn't return and maybe allow the via Richmond train to drop some stops on the western half of the route.

The path these used via Hounslow is no longer available because of the 4tph stopping service - ie it would not be able to travel at line speed over the route without catching up with the stopper in front even if it was pathed to overtake the following one at Barnes westward and on the curve at Hounslow eastward. Even then, it wouldn't be very robust timetabling as any delay would put a fast service behind the stopper.

Basically, if you are an "outer suburban" traveller, the Windsor lines are clogged up with stopping trains now. I expect that inner suburban passengers don't think their trains are frequent enough.

 

[infobleep]

What is more important, inner services or outer ones? Do the inner generate more passengers than the outer?

 

[The Ham]

What is more important, inner services or outer ones? Do the inner generate more passengers than the outer?

(not giving an answer, just another point to ponder), As outer fairs tend to be higher (as they are travelling greater distances and aren't covered by London travel zone fares) there could be a case made by a TOC to focus on more longer distance services.

 

[455driver]

(not giving an answer, just another point to ponder), As outer fairs tend to be higher (as they are travelling greater distances and aren't covered by London travel zone fares) there could be a case made by a TOC to focus on more longer distance services.

Playing Devils advocate-

But the inner suburban train would be able to do more journeys a day (because they are shorter) than if the same stock was doing outer suburban trips.
Because it is doing more trips it can carry more people so even though the fares may be lower there will be more of them!

 

[swt_passenger]

There used to be 2tph Waterloo to Reading via Hounslow - I don't see why these couldn't return and maybe allow the via Richmond train to drop some stops on the western half of the route.

That service pattern pre-dates the extension of the Weybridge service to/from Waterloo, which used to be a shuttle between Weybridge and Staines.

The Reading via Hounslows were presumably removed and replaced by the Weybridge route for a good reason, back in the 2004 full recast - is it because they were not competitive for time with the direct trains?