Longest permitted route EUS - MAN

[Merseysider]

I'll be using the return portion of an SVR either today or in the near future to go back up north.

What I'd like to know is which route between London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly would be the longest?

TIA for any suggestions

 

[telstarbox]

You can go via Sheffield for starters - 207mi 27ch.

 

[cuccir]

Do you have to leave from Euston?

Using maps RG+RM+MR you could travel:

Paddington - Oxford
Oxford - Birmingham
Birmingham - Nuneaton
Nuneaton - Crewe via Tamworth and Rugeley
Crewe - Warrington
Warrington - Manchester

That must be some extra distance!

 

[Merseysider]

You can go via Sheffield for starters - 207mi 27ch.

I did have a look at that one but there appears to be a higher "Via Chesterfield" fare for journeys via Sheffield so I don't think that would be allowed on my Any Permitted ticket

Do you have to leave from Euston?

Using maps RG+RM+MR you could travel:

Paddington - Oxford
Oxford - Birmingham
Birmingham - Nuneaton
Nuneaton - Crewe via Tamworth and Rugeley
Crewe - Warrington
Warrington - Manchester

That must be some extra distance!

That's an option - thanks!

 

[LexyBoy]

I did have a look at that one but there appears to be a higher "Via Chesterfield" fare for journeys via Sheffield so I don't think that would be allowed on my Any Permitted ticket

Fares don't determine validity, and in any case the Via Chesterfield SSR is cheaper than the Any Permitted SVR. It's perfectly valid, subject to time restrictions (arrive STP after 1125).

 

[maniacmartin]

Fares don't determine validity.

There was a change in the version of the National Routeing Guide in Detail document (Section F), released 17th Jan 2003 which added this wording to an example:

If the “Any Permitted” fare is less than the “Manchester” routed fare, the ticket holder may not go via Manchester

This appears to rule out routes if they have a higher-priced through ticket specifically routed via that via point. This is only mentioned in passing in this example, and is not mentioned in the NRG instructions

 

[tony_mac]

Fares don't determine validity

They can do in the case of routed fares. (e.g. if Chesterfield was not on a mapped route then the fare comparison would determine validity). I know it doesn't apply here, but just adding the information so that other readers don't misunderstand.

 

[maniacmartin]

They can do in the case of routed fares. (e.g. if Chesterfield was not on a mapped route then the fare comparison would determine validity).

Can you elaborate? I was understanding that fares are only sued for mapped routes (determining the appropriate routeing points and possibly also the case I mentioned above)

 

[LexyBoy]

There was a change in the version of the National Routeing Guide in Detail document (Section F), released 17th Jan 2003 which added this wording to an example:



This appears to rule out routes if they have a higher-priced through ticket specifically routed via that via point. This is only mentioned in passing in this example, and is not mentioned in the NRG instructions

Oh, I'd forgotten about that - there's a lot of confusing stuff in that document, and that one just sounds wrong. NRE does not apply this interpretation/instruction when showing routes, and of course we are now supposed to check routes there since the RG is too complicated for our pretty little heads.

Anyway, taking that in mind the ticket may not be valid (if you compare the same fares type) but would be subject to a zero-fare excess.

And tony_mac is right of course - this being the counterexample whereby additional validity is gained.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can you elaborate? I was understanding that fares are only sued for mapped routes (determining the appropriate routeing points and possibly also the case I mentioned above)

If the Chesterfield route were not a mapped route, then the existence of a cheaper fare for that route would make it valid for an Any Permitted fare (in lieu of a zero excess). From Section A:

You may only use all the permitted routes if the fare is unrouted or the route is described as "any permitted". An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced route specific fare exists. It can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists

(my belief is that the example you quoted from Section F was written in error with the assumption that Manchester isn't on a mapped route for that example).

 

[tony_mac]

(my belief is that the example you quoted from Section F was written in error with the assumption that Manchester isn't on a mapped route for that example).

That is also my belief - it is contradicted by other parts of the routeing guide.

Most of the examples are now incorrect in some way.
The Stratford-upon-Avon and Solihull example appears to make an implicit assumption that there are no direct trains to Banbury. Now that there are direct trains, it appears to contradict itself.
(It says journeys via Banbury are not allowed because of a double-back at Leamington, but journeys via Birmingham are allowed, despite a double-back at Tyseley).

 

[RJ]

My belief is that that quote from the NRG only applies if the higher priced fare is not a mapped route.

For example, a Bethnal Green to Derby via Peterborough SOS is more expensive than the +Any Permitted fare. Peterborough is not on a mapped route so the Any Permitted would not be valid via Peterborough.

You do sometimes get route restricted fares that are more expensive than the Any Permitted fare - but are also mapped permitted routes. These fares are superfluous and should be ignored.

 

[ASharpe]

This thread is getting me a bit worried about a ticket I use not that infrequently.

The quite clear introduction to Easements on section F makes it clear to me that my ticket is valid. However some here might disagree if I am understanding your posts correctly.

Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer
by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route.[\QUOTE]

The ticket in question is a Gomshall to Clapham Junction Single routed Any Permitted. I use this ticket starting short at Guildford and traveling on the route via Oxshot to CLJ.

This journey has a higher priced ticket routed via Guildford, I had presumed that that ticket also permits all mapped routes from GLD-CLJ because it would now pass the fares check rule.

Would anyone like to comment on the validity of that route?

 

[maniacmartin]

The single fares available for Gomshall to Clapham Junction have no routecodes in common with the single fares available between Guildford and Clapham Junction. I don't believe the NRG details what we should do here.
ANY PERMITTED or VIA GUILDFORD vs NOT VIA LONDON

However, in this specific case, via Guildford and Oxshott is within 3 miles of the distance of the shortest route, so luckily we can circumvent this mess with

Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer
by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route.

 

[RJ]

This thread is getting me a bit worried about a ticket I use not that infrequently.

The quite clear introduction to Easements on section F makes it clear to me that my ticket is valid. However some here might disagree if I am understanding your posts correctly.

Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer
by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route.

The ticket in question is a Gomshall to Clapham Junction Single routed Any Permitted. I use this ticket starting short at Guildford and traveling on the route via Oxshot to CLJ.

This journey has a higher priced ticket routed via Guildford, I had presumed that that ticket also permits all mapped routes from GLD-CLJ because it would now pass the fares check rule.

Would anyone like to comment on the validity of that route?

NRE says yes. You're fine.

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...row/1200/dep?via=Oxshott&avd=Dorking_Deepdene