Halton Curve upgrade is on

[Wavertreelad]

Not me, but my father was a mariner who lived in Wallasey at one time. He spoke of using Woodside station when he would join or leave his ship at Avonmouth.
Similarly, Bristol based sailors would make the reverse journey when joining or leaving ships in Birkenhead. The Merchant Navy administration offices where you could get paperwork done used to be at Morpeth Dock, I'm not sure of the exact location but certainly walking distance from Woodside Station.

I think Alfred Holt / the blue flue had some kind of discount deal in the days of GWR. Britain was, in many ways, a much more civilised and gentile place 60 or 70 years ago.

Alfred Holt Group which was Blue Funnel Line, Elder Dempster Line, amongst others had a building on Corporation Road Birkenhead called Odyssey Works which was a training school and I think a works or store for the ships equipment. Not sure if it's still there, but this link might be of interest.

http://www.rhiw.com/y_mor/blue_funnel_home/training_school/training_school.htm

Last time I was in Birkenhead, Blue Funnel Line and Clan Line names still appear on some of the dockside sheds, nearly forty years after their last ship sailed from the Mersey.

 

[Halewood South]

OxtedL assumptions are Wrong, The Halton Curve opens up a quicker passenger transport route for people in Halewood, Huyton, St Helens, Widnes etc without having to travel through the conjested Liverpool stations to access the wirral line. It also opens up a direct goods route for Jaguar Cars to deliver their vehicles to Ellesmere Port ready for export. People in Halewood in particular want a new station with a park and ride facility to have a shorter journey time to Chester and North Wales

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

OxtedL assumptions are Wrong, The Halton Curve opens up a quicker passenger transport route for people in Halewood, Huyton, St Helens, Widnes etc without having to travel through the conjested Liverpool stations to access the wirral line. It also opens up a direct goods route for Jaguar Cars to deliver their vehicles to Ellesmere Port ready for export. People in Halewood in particular want a new station with a park and ride facility to have a shorter journey time to Chester and North Wales

So are all these people going to travel via Liverpool South Parkway?
As far as I know there is no plan for a new station nearer Runcorn.

Do Jaguar use rail to Ellesmere Port at the moment?
They can always go via Warrington Arpley like the coal to Fiddlers Ferry.

Incidentally, one of the major lost opportunities over the years is transport of new cars from Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port.
Unlike the Liverpool factories, they have never shown any interest in rail.

 

[OxtedL]

OxtedL assumptions are Wrong, The Halton Curve opens up a quicker passenger transport route for people in Halewood, Huyton, St Helens, Widnes etc without having to travel through the conjested Liverpool stations to access the wirral line. It also opens up a direct goods route for Jaguar Cars to deliver their vehicles to Ellesmere Port ready for export. People in Halewood in particular want a new station with a park and ride facility to have a shorter journey time to Chester and North Wales

I agree that I haven't argued for these benefits - that is because they are almost certainly very small.

A new station between Runcorn and South Parkway (e.g. at Halewood) is extremely unlikely - this is the main line into Liverpool from the south. It won't be signalled for it, and any benefits will be crushed by the need to keep fast trains moving.

The curve does not open a quicker route for Huyton and St Helens to get to Chester as passengers from there will still have to go into Liverpool. We've already discussed that the curve won't be able to provide faster times than the Wirral Line. It may mean that some don't need to travel through the Merseyrail station at Lime Street, but this has better frequencies than the curve can offer, so I think this is a very limited benefit.

It will offer new and better journey opportunities for people between South Parkway and Warrington Central to travel via South Parkway, but this is roundabout and doesn't affect an inspiringly large population.

Likewise we could try and look for benefits as a local link from Frodsham/Helsby but there aren't enough people there either to justify £10m+.

There are lots of potential local links, but each of them is a fairly small potential flow of people. This is why I think the case has to be built on links from further away (e.g. Wrexham).

I have no opinion on freight.

 

[8A Rail]

It also opens up a direct goods route for Jaguar Cars to deliver their vehicles to Ellesmere Port ready for export.

How do you figure that out? Jaguar / Land Rover cars in the main get exported via Southampton as they go to the far corners of the world from there. Southampton has custom built facilities for handling vehicles for export, as well as import too.

So inconsequence, how do you established those very same ships will call at Ellesmere Port on the Manchester Ship Canal - they are a little big for the MSC! If they go anywhere different it would be Port of Liverpool as it has the facilities to do so and currently there are vehicles from Jaguar / Land Rover that are exported to America from there via ACL ships. Sadly the vehicles in question are transported by road from Halewood to Royal Seaforth Dock.

Economics has a major factor in delivering goods from A to B especially cars. For short / medium journeys, Car Transporter's is more economical but longer journeys, transporting by train becomes viable because of the quantity carried.

Incidentally, one of the major lost opportunities over the years is transport of new cars from Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port.

Not really as EWS / DBS have attempted to operate such trains from Ellesmere Port some years ago including a couple of further trials - yes sadly they got no further for a number of reasons. A couple being, the lack of suitable security at Ellesmere Port to protect the cars from damage while being loaded and for departure's, also the Auto Carriers were open type which lend themselves to easy access for possible damage. I am aware on a couple of occasions, a couple of Auto Carriers with about 8 cars on each, were completely wrecked before they left Ellesmere Port!

I understand that Vauxhall would still consider the option providing and I am assuming that the above problems could be overcome - expenditure required to fully beef up loading sites and also importantly, the vehicles are transported in enclosed Auto Carriers. The latter are clearly around but is there enough to take on additional auto flow over and above the existing ones using the enclosed Auto Carriers? If these can be overcome along with economic costings bearing in mind the Vauxhall Plant has got a good future until at least mid 2020's then it could be possible. If there is a will, there is a way.

 

[Silversmith]

An electrified turn-back station (Beechwood) on the curve itself would support a service. Beechwood-Lime Street with a significant amount of traffic coming from Runcorn station which is presently under-served.

Where would you situate the Beechwood station? The old Halton station in Sutton Weaver might be a possibility, with potential car parking space available (on the site currently being used by the company working on the Sutton Weaver/Frodsham swingbridge renovations) but this is now a private residence.

 

[Wavertreelad]

OxtedL assumptions are Wrong, The Halton Curve opens up a quicker passenger transport route for people in Halewood, Huyton, St Helens, Widnes etc without having to travel through the conjested Liverpool stations to access the wirral line. It also opens up a direct goods route for Jaguar Cars to deliver their vehicles to Ellesmere Port ready for export. People in Halewood in particular want a new station with a park and ride facility to have a shorter journey time to Chester and North Wales

I'd broadly agree with previous posts and have just posted on the Merseyrail planning new stations thread the following.

Ignoring the politics of this debate, if there is support for this project from Merseytravel which is the organisation usually responsible for such schemes, it should appear on the list of thirty stations they have identified as possible schemes for inclusion on the long term transport plan when it is published in September. Merseyrail is the train operator on the Northern and Wirral Lines only, neither of which pass the proposed site. City Line trains from Lime Street follow the CLC route to Warrington and apart from LM and Virgin as far as I am aware there is currently no other operator on this stretch of line and with Virgin already calling at Runcorn, I could not see them stopping at Halewood South as well.

With the Halton Curve now approved, it would be reasonable to suggest that at some point post 2016 a service from Lime Street would run on the route via Runcorn either to Chester or North Wales which could stop at the proposed Halewood South site. However, the location of the site is to me far from ideal tucked away behind the Jaguar factory, and away from the main roads of Higher Road and Speke Boulevard making it not particularly attractive for a park and ride scheme either. Furthermore, with the CLC line likely to be electrified before this scheme gets off the drawing board, I would suspect there would be few Halewood residents willing to travel to Halewood South to get a train into Liverpool when they could do the same from an existing station on their doorstep at Halewood on the CLC line?

As for the freight aspect, I think you will find Peel have other plans for Ellesmere Port and the former Bowater Mill site. In the recent past Ellesmere Port has mainly handled relatively small ro/ro ships which heavy or out of gauge generators because of the good road access and well as some bulk commodities. As Peel developments Port Bowater it will concentrate more on containerised cargoes so the chances of it being used for vehicles is remote because of the space they occupy.

Just for the record as well, the cars that move through Liverpool are actually shipped with Wallenius Line who have an agreement with ACL going back to it's formation in the mid 1960's to carry all cars on the ACL car decks. Trucks, and other ro/ro and breakbulk cargo is carried by ACL who have recently signed a ten year contract with the Port of Liverpool to continue handling their new ships which are being introduced next year. These new vessels are substantially larger than the existing fleet but will still use Seaforth Dock thanks to some clever design work to the ships, and upgrades to the terminal and entrance from Gladstone Lock. However, as mentioned previously the majority of exports are likely to be shipped from Southampton as the port has a considerable number of ro/ro services to global destinations.

 

[frodshamfella]

As someone who lives near Frodsham, i'm over the moon the Halton curve is happening. The current Manchester service is regularly overcrownded, so a direct Liverpool link will be great, I think no reason to think less passengers would want a direct Liverpool service over Manchester, being that the former is a closer city anyway, there is also no bus service either. .

No one from Frodsham or Helsby or surrounding villages would take train back to Chester for Merseyrail to Liverpool, it would take too long, they would just drive. Plus being able to get from Chester and North Wales, Helsby , Frodsham ( Beechwood hopefully) to Liverpool Airport without a car is great news. As far as I can remember the last major rail investment in Merseyside/Cheshire region was Liverpool South Parkway, and no service improvments since electrification beyond Hooton, So lets be pleased this is happening at long last

 

[childwallblues]

As someone who lives near Frodsham, i'm over the moon the Halton curve is happening. The current Manchester service is regularly overcrownded, so a direct Liverpool link will be great, I think no reason to think less passengers would want a direct Liverpool service over Manchester, being that the former is a closer city anyway, there is also no bus service either. .

No one from Frodsham or Helsby or surrounding villages would take train back to Chester for Merseyrail to Liverpool, it would take too long, they would just drive. Plus being able to get from Chester and North Wales, Helsby , Frodsham ( Beechwood hopefully) to Liverpool Airport without a car is great news. As far as I can remember the last major rail investment in Merseyside/Cheshire region was Liverpool South Parkway, and no service improvments since electrification beyond Hooton, So lets be pleased this is happening at long last

Well said Frodshamfella. I would imagine that service would stop at Mossley Hill and West Allerton and restore services from those stations to Runcorn which was lost when the Crewe all stations ceased.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Where would you situate the Beechwood station? The old Halton station in Sutton Weaver might be a possibility, with potential car parking space available (on the site currently being used by the company working on the Sutton Weaver/Frodsham swingbridge renovations) but this is now a private residence.

I seem to remember the idea of a Beechwood station being dismissed a few years ago as the line was too steep for stopping and starting.

 

[merlodlliw]

From the Daily Post a few hours ago

Assurances demanded over £10.4m North Wales to Liverpool rail link
Jul 30, 2014 14:00 By David Williamson
Wrexham MP Ian Lucas has raised concerns over lack of certainty on Halton Curves line upgrade announced by earlier this month

The Halton Curve bridge will get a £10.4m upgrade
A planned upgrade of rail links between North Wales and Liverpool must be more than a political stunt, Wrexham MP Ian Lucas has warned.

The Labour MP says he is concerned by a lack of certainty over proposals to upgrade of the Halton Curve rail link which could transform access to Liverpool’s airport and city centre.

When Mr Lucas pressed the Department for Transport for details of how journeys will be affected he was told that “exact service patterns have not yet been determined by Network Rail and stakeholders” and that announcements were expected in 2016-17.

Earlier this month, Chancellor George Osborne announced a £10.4m package of funding to upgrade the Halton Curve line.

Mr Lucas said: “The Chancellor’s announcement about the Halton Curve, when it was made, gained a great deal of attention. However, it did not contain a great deal of detail.

“We now know that the plans are at a very early stage indeed, with more details not expected until next year and work not expected to be completed until at least 2017.

“Rail users from North Wales will rightly want to know what is going on at the earliest possible opportunity.

“They will also want assurances that the Government is not making announcements about major infrastructure works for purely political purposes.”

Ian LucasIan Lucas
Mr Lucas asked for details about the timescale of the upgrade.

Conservative transport minister Claire Perry said in a written answer: “The scheme is currently being developed by Network Rail and detailed proposals are expected to be available early next year.

“Final sign off of funding for the scheme will be for the Liverpool City Region Local Enterprise Partnership and delivery is expected in 2016-17.”

A UK Government source said: “It will happen... The money is there. There is a line [in] the local growth budget for this item and it’s just a case of continuing to develop it and getting it sorted.”

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin discussed the Halton Curve on July 16 when he met with Edwina Hart, the Welsh Government minister with responsibility for the economy and transport.

Ms Perry described the expected works in response to a further question from Mr Lucas, stating: “This scheme involves the installation of new crossovers at Halton and Frodsham with a track upgrade enabling trains to operate in both directions.

“This work reinstates a rail link which will enable passenger services from North Wales and West Cheshire to directly access Liverpool City Centre and Liverpool John Lennon airport.

“Further details of the work to be provided by Network Rail early next year.”

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The "further detail" from Network Rail next year will not include anything about passenger services, just the technical details of the infrastructure upgrade.
There might be reference to it in the Northern ITT due in December, possibly as an option, for some kind of local Chester-Liverpool service.
Anything more elaborate will have to wait till the Wales & Borders ITT in 2017.

 

[WatcherZero]

Does seem the MP doesnt understand the process and timescales very well.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Merseytravel due to report in September on the "up to 30 stations" it proposes to reopen or lines it plans to reopen. As Merseytravel have funded the study in the "reopening" of the Halton Curve it might be reasonable to suggest that the report might give some indication of proposed local services using it.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does seem the MP doesnt understand the process and timescales very well.

Like a few posters here then. DfT announce a load of proposals in 2012, to be done between 2014 and 2019. In response NR announce a similar load of stuff in 2013 and 2014, to be done between 2014 and 2019.

Then, about 3 months or so into the 2014 financial year people, including MPs, start complaining that their local project hasn't started, or isn't finished... :roll:

 

[Holly]

I seem to remember the idea of a Beechwood station being dismissed a few years ago as the line was too steep for stopping and starting.

Presumably the station will have to wait for electrification then.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Was Rhyl once said to be a favoured seaside report for people from Liverpool ?

Even at a time when it was much more popular (and with no A55) there was only a Saturday Only Summer through service from Lime Street via Runcorn.
Most of those staying for a week or more would most likely be staying in a caravan on one of the coastal sites away from the station and the vast majority of them would take the car so they could pack all their beach 'accoutrements' (buckets and spades, inflatable alligators, li-lo etc).
For daytrippers, even with the change at Chester, the turn up and go Merseyrail service is always going to be by far the most popular route.
I am one of those who believe it is only being considered becasue it is still there. Had the track been lifted it wouldn't even have made anyone's top 100 re-openings list.
The opening of a station at Beechwood would probably be the curve's biggest asset.

 

[Halewood South]

Even at a time when it was much more popular (and with no A55) there was only a Saturday Only Summer through service from Lime Street via Runcorn.
Most of those staying for a week or more would most likely be staying in a caravan on one of the coastal sites away from the station and the vast majority of them would take the car so they could pack all their beach 'accoutrements' (buckets and spades, inflatable alligators, li-lo etc).
For daytrippers, even with the change at Chester, the turn up and go Merseyrail service is always going to be by far the most popular route.
I am one of those who believe it is only being considered becasue it is still there. Had the track been lifted it wouldn't even have made anyone's top 100 re-openings list.
The opening of a station at Beechwood would probably be the curve's biggest asset.

How wrong can one person be. In September, Mersey rail will announce their support for just over 30 new stations into their system and into the local network. I suggest that you wait and see when this list is published before you eat humble pie. I accept creating a station at Beechwood will have expensive difficulties at that particular site but new stations on the west coast mainline such as Halewood South and Ditton do not have any such inhibitions. In fact there is more positive reasons than negatives to introduce stations at these these locations . Halewood South station alone has enough potential passenger support for the Halton Curve viability. The creation of Halewood South station is supported by Halewood Town Council, Knowsley Borough Metropolitan Borough Council, John Lennon Airport, Jaguar Land-rover and Everton Football Academy to name but a few and will improve the accessibility to the airport that Liverpool South Parkway failed to provide . Ditton Station is supported by Halton Borough Council and Eddie Stobart Ltd, A station situated here will serve the refurbished industrial estate on Ditton Road and endorse Widnes's industrial expansion. These stations will also provide a much needed accessibility for passengers wanting to commute to the south of the river Mersey without having to pay an additional toll on the river crossings. Passenger numbers for journeys to Chester and North Wales from the North of the River Mersey will increase beyond doubt because of the Halton Curve so please put away your bucket and spade.

 

[The Planner]

The golden word there is "support", not fund, build and open.

 

[Wavertreelad]

The golden word there is "support", not fund, build and open.

And if I remember correctly it was also "up to 30 stations"....

 

[Mutant Lemming]

How wrong can one person be. In September, Mersey rail will announce their support for just over 30 new stations into their system and into the local network. I suggest that you wait and see when this list is published before you eat humble pie. I accept creating a station at Beechwood will have expensive difficulties at that particular site but new stations on the west coast mainline such as Halewood South and Ditton do not have any such inhibitions. In fact there is more positive reasons than negatives to introduce stations at these these locations . Halewood South station alone has enough potential passenger support for the Halton Curve viability. The creation of Halewood South station is supported by Halewood Town Council, Knowsley Borough Metropolitan Borough Council, John Lennon Airport, Jaguar Land-rover and Everton Football Academy to name but a few and will improve the accessibility to the airport that Liverpool South Parkway failed to provide . Ditton Station is supported by Halton Borough Council and Eddie Stobart Ltd, A station situated here will serve the refurbished industrial estate on Ditton Road and endorse Widnes's industrial expansion. These stations will also provide a much needed accessibility for passengers wanting to commute to the south of the river Mersey without having to pay an additional toll on the river crossings. Passenger numbers for journeys to Chester and North Wales from the North of the River Mersey will increase beyond doubt because of the Halton Curve so please put away your bucket and spade.

Like the outer loop in the 70s and the Merseytram project - all pie in the sky projects doomed to failure. They can't even sort out a decent link to the airport. They come up with South Parkway - and before long people realise it isn't actually that convenient for the airport so the bus service gets reduced, then curtailed.
There are thousands and thousands of pages of documents from the Merseyside transport authorities across the past few decades outliniing proposals that never happen - millions spent on feasability studies that end up sidelined.
There is more chance of a direct link from the Liverpool Loop via the centre of the earth to Guangzhou province happening in the life time of anyone on this forum than Merseytravel opening 30 stations.

 

[ivanhoe]

Like the outer loop in the 70s and the Merseytram project - all pie in the sky projects doomed to failure. They can't even sort out a decent link to the airport. They come up with South Parkway - and before long people realise it isn't actually that convenient for the airport so the bus service gets reduced, then curtailed.
There are thousands and thousands of pages of documents from the Merseyside transport authorities across the past few decades outliniing proposals that never happen - millions spent on feasability studies that end up sidelined.
There is more chance of a direct link from the Liverpool Loop via the centre of the earth to Guangzhou province happening in the life time of anyone on this forum than Merseytravel opening 30 stations.

Sadly, I'm afraid you are correct about Merseytravel.They have previous when it comes to wasting money. The Halton Curve , if successful will be down more to the efforts of Liverpool City Region and the Welsh Assembly. These 30 stations ( up to or maybe) is mythical. I would like the Curve to permenantly reopen but if you ask me how most Merseysiders get to North Wales , then I would hazard a guess that the A55 plays a dominant role.

 

[8A Rail]

How wrong can one person be. In September, Mersey rail will announce their support for just over 30 new stations into their system and into the local network. I suggest that you wait and see when this list is published before you eat humble pie. I accept creating a station at Beechwood will have expensive difficulties at that particular site but new stations on the west coast mainline such as Halewood South and Ditton do not have any such inhibitions. In fact there is more positive reasons than negatives to introduce stations at these these locations . Halewood South station alone has enough potential passenger support for the Halton Curve viability. The creation of Halewood South station is supported by Halewood Town Council, Knowsley Borough Metropolitan Borough Council, John Lennon Airport, Jaguar Land-rover and Everton Football Academy to name but a few and will improve the accessibility to the airport that Liverpool South Parkway failed to provide . Ditton Station is supported by Halton Borough Council and Eddie Stobart Ltd, A station situated here will serve the refurbished industrial estate on Ditton Road and endorse Widnes's industrial expansion. These stations will also provide a much needed accessibility for passengers wanting to commute to the south of the river Mersey without having to pay an additional toll on the river crossings. Passenger numbers for journeys to Chester and North Wales from the North of the River Mersey will increase beyond doubt because of the Halton Curve so please put away your bucket and spade.

Before anyone gets engross in this particular subject again, it its covered in this thread - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102146&page=7 so best not to repeat what has been discussed already.

 

[WatcherZero]

Sadly, I'm afraid you are correct about Merseytravel.They have previous when it comes to wasting money. The Halton Curve , if successful will be down more to the efforts of Liverpool City Region and the Welsh Assembly. These 30 stations ( up to or maybe) is mythical. I would like the Curve to permenantly reopen but if you ask me how most Merseysiders get to North Wales , then I would hazard a guess that the A55 plays a dominant role.

I thought the impetus for Halton Curve was Cheshire Council, they just had to get their bigger neighbour to help fund the studies after they agreed a deal with NR for lower build costs.

 

[Wavertreelad]

I thought the impetus for Halton Curve was Cheshire Council, they just had to get their bigger neighbour to help fund the studies after they agreed a deal with NR for lower build costs.

It may have been, but whilst Halton remains part of Cheshire, the Liverpool Region Combined Authority (LCRA) is now responsible for strategic transport planning in the Borough, with Merseytravel providing technical support.

 

[WatcherZero]

Halton is a Unitary authority, its been responsible for its own transport since 1998 and I understand will continue to manage its own transport infrastructure seperately from the LCRA just conducting joint transport planning, it also wont be co-operating with the LCRA on emergency services. The project was also never being actively promoted by Halton Council itself but by a partnership of Cheshire West (of which Halton isnt part) and the alliance of North Wales authorities TAITH and in a wholly seperate effort by Merseytravel who wanted to call it the Mersey Dee Link and remove the Halton name as the real name didnt sell it to Merseyside residents.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

And if I remember correctly it was also "up to 30 stations"....

Because some of them form mutually exclusive pairs, some of them have business cases that depend on the National Electrification Programme and some are anticipating needs that won't exist for 10-15 years yet.

 

[frodshamfella]

Even at a time when it was much more popular (and with no A55) there was only a Saturday Only Summer through service from Lime Street via Runcorn.
Most of those staying for a week or more would most likely be staying in a caravan on one of the coastal sites away from the station and the vast majority of them would take the car so they could pack all their beach 'accoutrements' (buckets and spades, inflatable alligators, li-lo etc).
For daytrippers, even with the change at Chester, the turn up and go Merseyrail service is always going to be by far the most popular route.
I am one of those who believe it is only being considered becasue it is still there. Had the track been lifted it wouldn't even have made anyone's top 100 re-openings list.
The opening of a station at Beechwood would probably be the curve's biggest asset.

Sorry I dont agree, if you are in Liverpool and can get a direct train to North Wales and not change in Chester, then why would you. The Chester service is good, but often busy, changing in Chester over a direct service is just another hassle.

The new route is going via south Liverpool at Runcorn, is a different market than Merseyrail via Wirral. If you live on the Wirral side fine, but not otherwise. Plenty from South Liverpool which is a big residential area would use a direct service to Chester as well, I think few would back track via Central and on Wirral line, they would just drive, and everyone from this neck of the wood know's what Runcorn Bridge and parking in Chester is like !

It's right the curve should be reopened, North Wales should be connected to Liverpool directly as it is to Manchester.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Because some of them form mutually exclusive pairs, some of them have business cases that depend on the National Electrification Programme and some are anticipating needs that won't exist for 10-15 years yet.

The Merseytravel plan is a master plan for the next 30 years, so of the 30 or starters I would expect a few non starters and some not to the see the light of day for many years to come, if at all in the time frame.

As there is already a thread on the Merseytravel/ Liverpool City Region Authority plans to open new stations

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102146

I will restrict my comments specifically to the Halton Curve in this thread. As this scheme has been approved and could be completed in 2016/2017 it might be reasonable to assume that Merseytravel will be able to produce detailed plans for the line next month although potentially the link would allow travel well beyond the Merseytravel area.

Sorry I dont agree, if you are in Liverpool and can get a direct train to North Wales and not change in Chester, then why would you. The Chester service is good, but often busy, changing in Chester over a direct service is just another hassle.

The new route is going via south Liverpool at Runcorn, is a different market than Merseyrail via Wirral. If you live on the Wirral side fine, but not otherwise. Plenty from South Liverpool which is a big residential area would use a direct service to Chester as well, I think few would back track via Central and on Wirral line, they would just drive, and everyone from this neck of the wood know's what Runcorn Bridge and parking in Chester is like !

It's right the curve should be reopened, North Wales should be connected to Liverpool directly as it is to Manchester.

I'd totally agree, the establishment of a "frequent" service along the route could open up new travel opportunities between South Liverpool and Chester or North Wales which could potentially be much quicker than the Wirral route, especially if travelling into Liverpool City centre by bus is added. The construction of the second Runcorn bridge is also designed to enhance the present totally inadequate infrastructure between Runcorn and Widnes with a view to increase employment opportunities. Tolling of the Runcorn Bridges for none local residents (the Chancellor has recently announced plans to exempt locals from the tolls) with their own means of transport could have a negative effect on these plans. Providing a frequent rail service in the area could negate this effect and facilitate more travel opportunities.

The changing of transport modes or trains is also another attraction, particularly for the occasional traveller, elderly or parents with young children and/or prams and bike riders. Avoiding the need to change transport mode or trains for these passengers even with the aid's of lifts, and signage etc. potentially is huge attraction to undertake a journey that otherwise could be troublesome, especially if services are packed already.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As this scheme has been approved and could be completed in 2016/2017 it might be reasonable to assume that Merseytravel will be able to produce detailed plans for the line next month although potentially the link would allow travel well beyond the Merseytravel area.

Where do you think Merseytravel will find the money to fund a new service from 2017?
Why should it take precedence over all the other service development issues in the North which are the subject of the new franchise?
You only have to look at the new Todmorden-Burnley service to see where the problems are, even when the infrastructure is complete.
My guess is it will be the December ITT before anything more definite will emerge, and that won't be final until a new franchise contract is issued for Northern.

Having said that, there might be some low-cost mileage in utilising the Ellesmere Port-Helsby unit which sits idle somewhere (Lime St?) in the off peak.