Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[Aictos]

Finsbury Park will be a more sensible choice at some times of the day, but that could make it extremely busy. It already has plenty of people swapping from the Moorgate services at peak times.

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Agreed but wouldn't people have a preference anyway which station they use?
I mean if their usual train always departs from Kings Cross then surely they will make their way to Kings Cross much like if their usual train origins from south of Blackfriars they're going to use St Pancras instead?

I really can't see a issue here at all, it's like Enfield Town and Enfield Chase with two different routes into London, people accept one route as their route to and from work, it's not hard.

The only time I can see there may be issues is when they may need to use Kings Cross to terminate/restart a TL service because of issues preventing it from using the Core BUT I'm positive they've taken all this into account which the likes of Bald Rick, Class 377/5 and SWT Passenger can probably confirm so IMHO we're worrying about nothing here.

 

[Southern Dvr]

There are also some 6-car consists formed of 2x377/3, which I've seen on the 1520 London Bridge to Tattenham Corner and 1922 London Victoria to London Bridge

They join up/split from another 4 car unit during the day.

There is a working from London Bridge to Tattenham as a 10 car 377, the 6 splits off at Purley. Remember the branch can only take 9 car maximum, and caterham branch only 8.

 

[Hadders]

Consider a journey from London to Stevenage. The following services run for most of the day from Kings Cross

xx05 arrives xx42
xx23 arrives xx46
xx35 arrives xx12
xx53 arrives xx16

Now let's assume the xx05 and xx35 departures go via St Pancras. I get off the Underground at 15 minutes past the hour - do I head for Kings Cross or St Pancras - or carry on to Finsbury Park where all the above services stop?

Now I know the answer as I travel regularly and have a decent grasp of the timetable, but many won't. They'll head to one or other station and assume the service is half hourly.

The issue of trains currently going to Moorgate is different as only the inner suburban trains do this. These take an hour from Stevenage and no-one would ever catch one of these trains to London as they take an hour!

 

[swt_passenger]

Was there an exact reason Dartford was removed from one of the destinations over the past couple of years?

A shame if plans for a route to Dartford are 100% cancelled (which is pretty certain and this PDF a mistake) as it would've been a nice bonus for years of upheaval.

The other main reason was that following 'consultation' they removed 4 tph from Southeastern to the core to allow space for the 4 tph from the Wimbledon loop to be reinstated. This was given fairly significant publicity and discussed in the forum at the time. The flip side of that decision also caused a significant change in the possible ratio of trains arriving via London Bridge or Elephant & Castle. With 16 tph now coming through London Bridge, although the original plans had 18 tph that way of which 4 tph came from the Southeastern side.

So it looks as though the new junctions and the northernmost line (of 4) through the new underpass that is being provided to give a route from 'Dartford' towards Thameslink will only see use for engineering work or random perturbations.

(Follow up as prompted by Class 377/5's later post) Although you wrote Dartford - there was never any recent intention to have trains from that station towards the core. Although I reckon the original main purpose of the diveunder route in question was to connect the slow lines via New Cross to the core. In fact having now (Monday afternoon) done some digging around, the 2004 Thameslink Environmental Statement does include 4 tph to Thameslink from Dartford, 2 tph each via Sidcup and Bexleyheath. But by the time the South London RUS of 2008 was published, they were saying this: "The RUS deliberations do not include Thameslink services operating via Lewisham
or to Dartford."

I think you are correct anyway that the relevant route towards Thameslink from the Southeastern via London Bridge is 100% removed from the normal timetable, and will never be re-instated.

 

[Stats]

Consider a journey from London to Stevenage. The following services run for most of the day from Kings Cross

xx05 arrives xx42
xx23 arrives xx46
xx35 arrives xx12
xx53 arrives xx16

Now let's assume the xx05 and xx35 departures go via St Pancras. I get off the Underground at 15 minutes past the hour - do I head for Kings Cross or St Pancras - or carry on to Finsbury Park where all the above services stop?

Now I know the answer as I travel regularly and have a decent grasp of the timetable, but many won't. They'll head to one or other station and assume the service is half hourly.

The issue of trains currently going to Moorgate is different as only the inner suburban trains do this. These take an hour from Stevenage and no-one would ever catch one of these trains to London as they take an hour!

You'll be in for a long wait if you head to Kings Cross off-peak wouldn't you? As far as I can see all off-peak outer GN services except the Cambridge Express are diverted to Thameslink. In fact, I am struggling to see what, if anything, is going to serve KGX off-peak except the Cambridge Express, and what use the large 365 fleet is going to be put to, other than a few additional peak Peterborough and Welwyn services.

 

[swt_passenger]

In fact, I am struggling to see what, if anything, is going to serve KGX off-peak except the Cambridge Express, and what use the large 365 fleet is going to be put to, other than a few additional peak Peterborough and Welwyn services.

There won't be a 'large' 365 fleet (with TSGN) by then though, will there?

As it reads in the route fact sheet:

King’s Lynn / Cambridge Express services to King’s Cross
will see existing mid-life Class 365 rolling stock replaced by
newer, air-conditioned Class 377s during 2016.
• The older class 317s and 321s (which are mostly used in the
peaks to provide extra capacity) will be replaced during 2016.
• Most other Cambridge and Peterborough services will see
new Class 700s phased in between 2016 and 2018. Class
365s will continue to operate some peak services to and
from Peterborough.

 

[jon0844]

Finsbury Park really is the most sensible, but it's not the most accessible station. I know lifts are coming to the rail platforms, but don't know when (bar platform 1/2, which are now done).

But on the other hand, it's a shorter walk than at King's Cross (even if know the shortcuts). At night I'll often go to FPK to save running for whatever platform my train might be at, and when I'm running a bit late so I could very well miss the departure - but make it at FPK because the Victoria Line is so fast (for the Piccadilly Line, forget it!). If I've come on the Northern or H&C/Circle/Met lines then changing to the Victoria Line suddenly becomes less enticing.

The downside of boarding at Finsbury Park is obvious though; the train might now be very busy, and few people alight at FPK.

But that's going to be much the same problem at St Pancras.

I think the issue with choosing between St Pancras and King's Cross is quite simple; you'd always go for King's Cross. Then you'll get on an empty train, and perhaps be able to board early and get comfortable. But as said above, these trains will only run in the peaks. Oh, and many of them will only go to WGC!!

 

[Stats]

There won't be a 'large' 365 fleet (with TSGN) by then though, will there?

This is something I have been wondering about. The AC capable units the ITT requires the franchise holder to cascade equals the 319 and 387 fleets. If they don't need so many 365s are some of them going to be cascaded too? It might explain why I have never been able to work out how the DfT get to the total number of vehicles and percentage increase of the fleet size by 2018.

 

[infobleep]

The other main reason was that following 'consultation' they removed 4 tph from Southeastern to the core to allow space for the 4 tph from the Wimbledon loop to be reinstated. This was given fairly significant publicity and discussed in the forum at the time. The flip side of that decision also caused a significant change in the possible ratio of trains arriving via London Bridge or Elephant & Castle. With 16 tph now coming through London Bridge, although the original plans had 18 tph that way of which 4 tph came from the Southeastern side.

So it looks as though the new junctions and the northern line (of 4) through the new underpass that is being provided to give a route from 'Dartford' towards Thameslink will only see use for engineering work or random perturbations.

I think you are correct that the route via Dartford is 100% removed (from Thameslink), and will never be re-instated.

Why spend all the money on the dive under if no regular trains are going to be using it. Was it to far into the building process to remove it?

 

[Yabbadabba]

Consider a journey from London to Stevenage. The following services run for most of the day from Kings Cross

xx05 arrives xx42
xx23 arrives xx46
xx35 arrives xx12
xx53 arrives xx16

Now let's assume the xx05 and xx35 departures go via St Pancras. I get off the Underground at 15 minutes past the hour - do I head for Kings Cross or St Pancras - or carry on to Finsbury Park where all the above services stop?

Now I know the answer as I travel regularly and have a decent grasp of the timetable, but many won't. They'll head to one or other station and assume the service is half hourly.

The issue of trains currently going to Moorgate is different as only the inner suburban trains do this. These take an hour from Stevenage and no-one would ever catch one of these trains to London as they take an hour!

I thought at the moment there were 6tph on the Great Northern outer area,

2x Nonstop Cambridge/Kings Lynn from Kings Cross.
2X Semi Fast Cambridge/Peterborough from Kings Cross.
2x Stopper Cambrige/Peterborough from Kings Cross.

From what I can tell the from the plans post 2018 there will be 8tph.

2x Nonstop (to Cambridge) and onto Kings Lynn from Kings Cross, Class 377.
2x Semi Fast to Cambridge from Brighton, Class 700.
2x Stopper to Cambridge from Tattenham Corner, Class 700.
2x Unknown stoping pattern to Peterborough from Horsahm, Class 700.

On top of this rush hour peak extras from Kings Cross not specified as of yet, but Class 365.

Now I agree when it comes to the evening peak knowing which station will be best to get home from to exit the big smoke could become a lottery especially during disruption. But during off peak it looks pretty much sorted.

I do like the idea of putting up Great Northen departure screens in St Pancras and Thameslink in Kings Cross as it looks like they will be running more like one station more than ever post 2018.

 

[Aictos]

Like I said before, most people will have a preference to which station they use as to using TSGN out of St Pancras Int or using East Coast out of Kings Cross.

If you arrive at Kings Cross St Pancras and you need to get to Stevenage for whatever reason you simply look up the next service that suits your requirements and you head to board it, if you miss it you simply get the next one.

If you've just missed the xx:05 then you've got plenty of time to get to the xx:23 and vice versa, this talk of just missing a train on Platform B at St Pancras Int then having to run to get a train 3 mins later at Platform 0 is scaremongering, I very much doubt the powers to be would do this.

As to the Class 321s/317s, will they be replaced by the Class 700s? Be interesting to see what ends up on the Stopping Cambridge services?

 

[swt_passenger]

Why spend all the money on the dive under if no regular trains are going to be using it. Was it to far into the building process to remove it?

Probably not even started 'on the ground' when the decision was made, but I'd expect the cost savings would not be large, because there are still three lines through the dive under. There'd just be a concrete box with no track if the line was not built. But in any case, it will still be a useful route for some moves, such as allowing up trains towards Charing Cross without conflict. AIUI the expected crossing problems were only in the down direction, with trains off Thameslink towards the Southeastern having to cross with up trains towards Cannon St. So it's possible it could be used quite happily on Sundays if Cannon St needed to be closed, for engineering work for instance.

(I'm aware Cannon St will normally be open 7/7 from the end of the year though.)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As to the Class 321s/317s, will they be replaced by the Class 700s? Be interesting to see what ends up on the Stopping Cambridge services?

As far as the recent 'route fact sheet' shows, Cambridge stoppers will go through the core - so they must be 700s.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is something I have been wondering about. The AC capable units the ITT requires the franchise holder to cascade equals the 319 and 387 fleets. If they don't need so many 365s are some of them going to be cascaded too? It might explain why I have never been able to work out how the DfT get to the total number of vehicles and percentage increase of the fleet size by 2018.

I've basically given up trying to fathom this out with reference to the consultation/ITT. Although one key point is that the 'cascade out' (ITT table 5.4.3) is actually 620 vehicles altogether, which is somewhat more than just the 319s and the initial 29 x 4 car 387s. Although the number in the column 'AC capable 100 mph units' of 328 does match the remaining number of 319s, the 319s are dual voltage so could also be used to provide the 176 'DC capable vehicles'. So there's 44 x 4 car AC EMUs that could be 317/321/365. Also notable that the tables are 'minimum' quantities...

I think some of the probable rolling stock moves (posted in good faith at the time) had become so settled in the collective mind that what we have now has pretty wide ranging differences.

For the best example, I think people were taking it as read that all the SN 313s would end up on the GN, and this meant that all the Coastway routes would have to become 377 operated. Well that isn't happening now...

 

[Yabbadabba]

As to the Class 321s/317s, will they be replaced by the Class 700s? Be interesting to see what ends up on the Stopping Cambridge services?

Well according according to their own published commitments, there will be 6x trains per hour off peak to Cambridge 2x from Brighton Class 700, 2x from Tattenham Corner Class 700 and 2x from Kings Cross on the expresses Class 377, which doesn't leave anything for the Class 317/321 to do apart from cascade or scrap, as they are either keeping the whole or part of the Class 365 fleet for Great Northern Extras.


http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/...ctsheet 2 - Great Northern outer services.pdf

 

[Martin222002]

From what the published factsheets say there will be the following operating on the ECML and Hetford Loop to and from Kings Cross, St Pancras and Moorgate.

To and from Kings Cross:

• 2tph to Kings Lynn (non-stop to Cambridge) using 377s.

• 2tph peak only to Peterborough using 365s (probably the current peak only fast services).

• 2tph peak only to Welwym Garden City (the exact stock used not stated, but a guess would be either 365s or the 313 replacement stock).

To and from St Pancras:

• 2tph to Peterborugh to and from Horsham (most likely replacing the current 1 semi-fast service per hour to and from Kings Cross).

• 2tph to Cambridge to and from Brighton (most likely replacing the current 1 semi-fast service per hour to and from Kings Cross).

• 2tph to Cambridge to and from Tattenham Corner (most likely replacing the 2 stopping services per hour to Cambridge and Peterborough).

• 2tph peak only to Welwym Garden City to and from Caterham.

To and from Moorgate:

• 4tph to Welwym Garden City.

• 4tph to Hertford North with 2tph continuing to Stevenage.

• Additional peak services, but no specific details given as to how many or where to.

 

[Class377/5]

Why spend all the money on the dive under if no regular trains are going to be using it. Was it to far into the building process to remove it?

The dive under has nothing to do with Dartford services but allows the Don Slow via Forest Hill and all Charing Cross lines to pass under Thameslink grade separated rather than flat junctions today allowing the intensive Thameslink services.

As for links to Cannon Street lines, its always good go to have alternative links. The Thameslink platforms at London Bridge will allow for Charing Cross services to call if needed (and in engineering works it provide more flexibly).

As for stock, GTR have publicly stated the 317/321 fleets are being 'cascaded' away and not announced but around half the 365 are also going. Id expect the peak special to be the limited stops type service than run now (shish I used to use as it was fast Finsbury Park to New Southgate, my old stop).

 

[infobleep]

Like I said before, most people will have a preference to which station they use as to using TSGN out of St Pancras Int or using East Coast out of Kings Cross.

If you arrive at Kings Cross St Pancras and you need to get to Stevenage for whatever reason you simply look up the next service that suits your requirements and you head to board it, if you miss it you simply get the next one.

If you've just missed the xx:05 then you've got plenty of time to get to the xx:23 and vice versa, this talk of just missing a train on Platform B at St Pancras Int then having to run to get a train 3 mins later at Platform 0 is scaremongering, I very much doubt the powers to be would do this.

As to the Class 321s/317s, will they be replaced by the Class 700s? Be interesting to see what ends up on the Stopping Cambridge services?

Why wouldn't they run the train 3 minutes later? I catching of a few examples where trains don't time well. For example the trains from Aldershot to Farnham leave less than 4 minutes after the Ascot train from Guildford arrives and leaves. Thus officially you then have to wait for over 30 minutes for the next train. That's at one station. So whilst it might not be great if they did run them 3 minutes apart, I wouldn't totally rule it out happening.

 

[Hadders]

It'll be interesting to see the timetable with the additional outer suburban services included.

My example of Stevenage may not have been the best one, but if you consider Cambridge if you just miss the xx14 cruiser service arriving (which will go from Kings Cross), the next service will be the xx53 semi fast (from St Pancras) as this is a few minutes quicker than waiting for the xx44 cruiser.

I passed through Cambridge station earlier on a train that divided with the front four coaches continuing to Kings Lynn. I was amazed at the commotion over which coaches were the front 4. One person loudly declaring 'this is the reason I never usually get the train.' It's these sort of people who'll get confused between Kings Cross and St Pancras.

I do think linking the Great Northern to Thameslink is a good thing but I do think some careful thought needs to be given to what information/directions will be given to passengers at Kings Cross and St Pancras.

 

[Bald Rick]

My 2 thou' worth.

1) it is not safe to assume that the ECML timetable in 2018 will look anything like it does today. And the timetable won't be designed around the concerns of the occasional passenger who might get confused between two adjacent termini. It will be designed to get the highest number of passengers to their destinations as quickly as possible.

2) we seem to be forgetting the point of Thameslink. Whilst no doubt many people will still head to KX STP for their Welwyn, Cambridge, Stevenage trains etc, many will instead head for London Bridge, Blackfriars, City TL or Farringdon.

3) the reason the Dartford services were dropped was a) to make space for the Wimbledon Loop trains and b) because these services linked the TL core to the SEML. Apart from making the whole SE timetable then revolve around the times of these 2 tph, the modelling showed that it would lead to performance cross-contamination, ie if the core sneezed Lewisham caught a cold, with predictable consequences. Whilst no doubt the good folk of Bexleyheath were keen to get to the TL core and Luton, a simple change at London Bridge is all that is required (in common with every other SE route into London Bridge).

4) the dive under at Bermondsey remains crucial to the delivery of Thameslink. Without it, you can't run anything like the level of service proposed.

 

[infobleep]

My 2 thou' worth.

1) it is not safe to assume that the ECML timetable in 2018 will look anything like it does today. And the timetable won't be designed around the concerns of the occasional passenger who might get confused between two adjacent termini. It will be designed to get the highest number of passengers to their destinations as quickly as possible.

2) we seem to be forgetting the point of Thameslink. Whilst no doubt many people will still head to KX STP for their Welwyn, Cambridge, Stevenage trains etc, many will instead head for London Bridge, Blackfriars, City TL or Farringdon.

3) the reason the Dartford services were dropped was a) to make space for the Wimbledon Loop trains and b) because these services linked the TL core to the SEML. Apart from making the whole SE timetable then revolve around the times of these 2 tph, the modelling showed that it would lead to performance cross-contamination, ie if the core sneezed Lewisham caught a cold, with predictable consequences. Whilst no doubt the good folk of Bexleyheath were keen to get to the TL core and Luton, a simple change at London Bridge is all that is required (in common with every other SE route into London Bridge).

4) the dive under at Bermondsey remains crucial to the delivery of Thameslink. Without it, you can't run anything like the level of service proposed.

Surely Wimbledon trains could have terminated at London Bridge allowing a connection just like the Dartford services do. Will the Wimbledon loop catch cold if thing go wrong in the core?

 

[Class377/5]

Surely Wimbledon trains could have terminated at London Bridge allowing a connection just like the Dartford services do. Will the Wimbledon loop catch cold if thing go wrong in the core?

The decision to keep the Sutton trains going through the Core was taken as the public demanded it at the consulation as they want that (and they have been putting up with the disprution since 2009).

Note a Sutton to London Bridge service changing to a Thameslink service would take around 10mins for the change and make the service a sigifcantly less attractive for those current passengers.

 

[ModernRailways]

Quick question since I can't see it mentioned anywhere, but what will be happening to Moorgate services? IIRC, they are going to 8 trains per hour (4 tph to Hertford, 4 tph to Welwyn) so in my view that will mean city workers near to Moorgate/City Thameslink will head to Moorgate or City Thameslink, and workers from elsewhere will either head to Kings Cross/St Pancras or their nearest Thameslink station. This will relieve pressure on Kings Cross and St Pancras. Kings Cross will also be useful as an alternative terminus when there is disruption. What I think is the main thing people will need to remember is, is that right now there will be a lot of people travelling from somewhere near a Thameslink station to the tube to catch a train to Kings Cross and get the train from there.

We will also have Crossrail in 2018 which is something else to consider.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely Wimbledon trains could have terminated at London Bridge allowing a connection just like the Dartford services do. Will the Wimbledon loop catch cold if thing go wrong in the core?

The Wimbledon Loop was originally intended to run to/from Blackfriars bays, without it going through the core. But it wouldn't have gone anywhere near London Bridge, indeed there would have been no capacity for it there.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... the dive under at Bermondsey remains crucial to the delivery of Thameslink. Without it, you can't run anything like the level of service proposed.

Have people possibly been misreading my post #604? What I was trying to say was that there was now little or no normal use for the northern 4th track through the Bermondsey dive under, providing as it does for up trains from the Southeastern slow lines through New Cross to get to the Thameslink up line.

That was never intended to mean the whole underpass itself was unnecessary - although I think perhaps in his subsequent reply infobleep may have been confused about the use of the dive under in general.

 

[jopsuk]

Regarding getting a train to Cambridge: even if the departure times stay the same, I'd recommend going to Kings Cross. Yes, the "semi fast" doesn't get overtaken, but it arrives only a few minutes before the chasing Express. Unless time is absolutely critical, you might as well get the express.

Edit:
To be more exact:
the 1453 arrives at 1555
the 1515 arrives at 1604

Unless that nine minutes is important, I'd recommend the later train.

 

[swt_passenger]

I can clarify the earlier slight diversion into the possibility of Dartford services, having done a bit more reading this afternoon...

If you go back ten years to the time the TWA Order was going through, there was an intended Thameslink network map published in the Environmental Statement that clearly showed a 4 tph service from Dartford onto Thameslink, with 2 tph running through Sidcup, and 2 tph through Bexleyheath, and importantly compared to today's proposals, they would have had stops at Lewisham, St Johns and New Cross, so must have been intended to run on the slows at that point.

However, by the time the South London RUS was published in 2008, they had decided: "The RUS deliberations do not include Thameslink services operating via Lewisham or to Dartford." Their reasoning given for this (back in 2008) is basically that Southeastern works best on a 20 min cycle, and Thameslinks 2 or 4 tph just didn't fit, as well as the crossing conflicts on the approach to London Bridge etc.. This is basically what Bald Rick mentioned earlier - but I also find that in 2004 they were proposing both the Wimbledon Loop going through the core and the 4 tph Dartford service via London Bridge to the core. So Wimbledon has been, gone and comeback...

Oh and that 2004 network included Guildford, Eastbourne and Littlehampton - other long term features of various dodgy web site information...

So there we have it - a sort of audit trail for 'Dartford' coming and going, decision to cut it done and dusted over 6 years ago. But it does mean that it is probably wrong to say that, taken over the entire life of the project so far, that the diveunder always had 'nothing whatsoever' to do with Dartford...

 

[Aictos]

Regarding getting a train to Cambridge: even if the departure times stay the same, I'd recommend going to Kings Cross. Yes, the "semi fast" doesn't get overtaken, but it arrives only a few minutes before the chasing Express. Unless time is absolutely critical, you might as well get the express.

Edit:
To be more exact:
the 1453 arrives at 1555
the 1515 arrives at 1604

Unless that nine minutes is important, I'd recommend the later train.

I agree but if you want onward connections at Cambridge such as the Stansted services you need to use the earlier service until such a time arrives that the Stansted services are running as 2tph instead of the 1tph as they currently are.

Just wondering but IF the Wimbledon/Sutton Loop services were cut back to start/terminate at Blackfriars to provide a much more frequent service, what would have replaced the service between St Pancras Int and Luton?

Would a Kentish Town to Luton service have been viable?

Secondly IF they did do this, could we have not seen a 15 minute service frequency around the Wimbledon/Sutton Loop so 4tph instead of the existing 2tph?

 

[Deerfold]

Secondly IF they did do this, could we have not seen a 15 minute service frequency around the Wimbledon/Sutton Loop so 4tph instead of the existing 2tph?

If the Loop had gone into the terminating platforms at Blackfriars a higher frequency was promised.

 

[jopsuk]

I agree but if you want onward connections at Cambridge such as the Stansted services you need to use the earlier service until such a time arrives that the Stansted services are running as 2tph instead of the 1tph as they currently are.

I'm not sure what journey you'd be making to want to, from Kings Cross, get a Stansted service from Cambridge- faster and cheaper at all times to have used the Underground to pick up a Stansted Express (or Cambridge service) from Tottenham Hale... I feel you're trying to come up with rather complex journeys to justify a pretty needless "fear".

 

[Aictos]

I'm not sure what journey you'd be making to want to, from Kings Cross, get a Stansted service from Cambridge- faster and cheaper at all times to have used the Underground to pick up a Stansted Express (or Cambridge service) from Tottenham Hale... I feel you're trying to come up with rather complex journeys to justify a pretty needless "fear".

Was referring to these who might use XC at Cambridge to head to towards Birmingham or stations en route, that's when decent connections there work.

Remember XC do run into Stansted

 

[jopsuk]

Yes, I know XC run to Stansted. Meanwhile why would anyone go from Kings Cross via Cambridge to stations west of Peterborough?

In reality the only stations (via Cambridge) that this may have an effect on travellers to are March, Manea and Whittlesea. I'd LOVE to know how many regular and occasional (as we're really concerned here for the occasional traveller, not the regular commuter who knows their journey options inside out) passengers there are making these journeys, versus the huge numbers that will benefit from the change!

 

[grid56126]

The discussion around people "just missing" a train and having to change stations to catch the next really is not the big problem people think it is. As others have hinted at, the way people use Cambridge / Peterborough services is going to change. In the peaks the "City" traffic is quite varied with a higher number of people using the Finsbury Park interchange to get to Moorgate in the morning compared to the evening. This is because a reasonably high proportion of these will catch the Circle/Met back to Kings Cross to get on the train there, A to get a seat and B, because Kings Cross is a better place to be when it goes belly up. I suspect that with Farringdon suddenly becoming a cross the bridge interchange the Thameslink services will suddenly become another distraction. Off peak will be more of an unknown, but fro anyone coming from The South Eastern side or most parts of Southern land (myself included) the Thameslink services suddenly become very attractive. Going back to my home station of Biggleswade (as I do quite a bit now) from Selhurst/Croydon where I now reside being an obvious one. If you are sitting on a train that takes 20 minutes longer than a non stop train you are hardly going to get off and walk over to Kings Cross. I suspect the changes to travel flows and patterns will actually be very complex indeed !