Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[hassaanhc]

Potters Bar becoming part of zone 6 or zone 7 would make sense, but I wonder if Hatfield and WGC (and indeed St Albans) would become part of the zones?

If not, they're going to end up being special zones, like Broxbourne, which then gives a problem as they're running out of zones/letters.

Should do Zones 8-10 rather than outside, something I feel should be the case with the Tattenham Corner branches that should be part in Z7 rather than 6

 

[jon0844]

Cheshunt is zone 8, but Broxbourne is 'B' and not zone 9 (or 10, which doesn't exist does it?). The distance isn't that great, yet I think there's quite a jump in ticket price when going from 'B' than '8' into London - on account of the fares being set by the train operator.

Perhaps more zones should have been created rather than these special letters? And wouldn't it be great if TfL took over running the buses within these zones too. We might finally get a more organised set of bus services, but that's never going to happen is it!

 

[Aictos]

Regards to the Zoning, I have to admit Berlin has the right idea of how zoning should be done with 3 zones, A, B and C with A being Inner Berlin, B, the outskirts of Berlin and C being to the Airport and Potsdam now in London; Zones 1 to 3 could be Zone A, Zones 4 to 6 could be Zone B and 7 upwards could be Zone C.

Simple, just three zones which ought to simplify travelling

As to what Govia are bringing to the table in September, it be interesting to see what the other bidders were going to bring but for obvious reasons that won't be public knowledge.

 

[MLR]

From my point of view I think it's silly to have a staff pass and a separate pass with boxes which is why I think the Govia approach with just a single staff pass is the way to go as it's more economic, the only improvement I would like to see and I'm sure it will happen one day is to issue staff passes using Smartcard technology as Scotrail has done so as part of their franchise committments.

This could be done in the shape of The Key with the Govia staff having their staff passes put onto their issued smartcard much like TfL staff have a Oyster card with a staff discount applied.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Govia have planned especially as their way of doing things will be different to First that I'm def sure of.

Southern Staff travel is on the Key, they issue a separate card as well for use on Southeastern and London Midland (as they don't have ITSO compatible gatelines).

 

[jon0844]

I don't think there's a lot that First or any other bidder wouldn't have done - even a lot of the timetable changes were part of a fairly detailed outline from the DfT.

Naturally a lot of the things that happen in 2018 will be seen by many as only happening because First were 'kicked out'.

 

[hassaanhc]

Not within the lifetime of GTR, they have said the costal 313 are staying until franchise ends. the 377/3 will be used to help lengthen other others as stock is moved around compared to today.

There are also some 6-car consists formed of 2x377/3, which I've seen on the 1520 London Bridge to Tattenham Corner and 1922 London Victoria to London Bridge

 

[Fincra5]

All this oyster extension means for me.. is that I will now HAVE to carry an oyster reader, and pretend to know what i'm supposed to look for on the screen...

 

[user15681]

All this oyster extension means for me.. is that I will now HAVE to carry an oyster reader, and pretend to know what i'm supposed to look for on the screen...

Haha just give it a blank look and nod.

 

[Fincra5]

Haha just give it a blank look and nod.

Not much different to the 'key' that only works half the time... Reader showing Green... all good

 

[LBSCR Times]

- even a lot of the timetable changes were part of a fairly detailed outline from the DfT.

Naturally a lot of the things that happen in 2018 will be seen by many as only happening because First were 'kicked out'.

Before that even.
GTR are saying on their website that the timetable alterations for next year can be brought forward, but then they should be, as both Southern and GTR will be the same parent company, whereas with First and Southern still competeing, there wouldn't have been that possibility.
Perhaps another reason why Govia won the franchise?

 

[infobleep]

Is the 465 from Dorking and an Oyster service all the way? It goes into Kingston. I know the Addlestone service isn't an Oyster service even in Kingston.

What about the K3 from Claygate? I just assumed it's a Oyster service.

Do train companies like the Oyster system or would they rather it didn't exist?

 

[FOH]

There are also some 6-car consists formed of 2x377/3, which I've seen on the 1520 London Bridge to Tattenham Corner and 1922 London Victoria to London Bridge

To be fair, that's usually on services that used to be 4 car 455s and are much appreciated by me.

 

[bicbasher]

There's not that many places beyond the zones served by buses but not Oyster on rail - Slough, Potters Bar, Cuffley, Dartford and Bluewater, Redhill, Epsom. I've probably missed a couple.

Leatherhead and Dorking on Route 465.

 

[tsr]

If Oyster arrives at both Dorking and Redhill railway stations, it will also mean it probably has to be extended to Reigate and Betchworth, in order to ensure that people who use it between readers at Dorking and Redhill can do so legitimately. It would quite frankly be utterly pointless to try to prohibit any such use. Much the same system is in use with the key, although there are, I believe, no readers at Betchworth - only break of journey is allowed, which would be difficult to deal with on the Oyster system.

(Indeed, this would be quite an interesting step for Betchworth, with its (broadly) 1tp2h service, and facilities including a hill or three, an old quarry and about 10 houses and offices in the immediate vicinity. Mind you, it is still used by a greater number of passengers than Sudbury & Harrow Road...)

 

[philjo]

Potters Bar becoming part of zone 6 or zone 7 would make sense, but I wonder if Hatfield and WGC (and indeed St Albans) would become part of the zones?

If not, they're going to end up being special zones, like Broxbourne, which then gives a problem as they're running out of zones/letters.

2 FCC staff at my local station were talking about oyster recently. One of them had been told at a staff briefing for the new franchise that it is planned to extend oyster to WGC and Hertford North but no date given yet for implementing this.

 

[swt_passenger]

If Oyster arrives at both Dorking and Redhill railway stations, it will also mean it probably has to be extended to Reigate and Betchworth, in order to ensure that people who use it between readers at Dorking and Redhill can do so legitimately.

Following on from that logic though, it ought to have always been valid at Epsom...

 

[CatfordCat]

Is the 465 from Dorking and an Oyster service all the way? It goes into Kingston. I know the Addlestone service isn't an Oyster service even in Kingston.

What about the K3 from Claygate? I just assumed it's a Oyster service.

Do train companies like the Oyster system or would they rather it didn't exist?

If it's a TfL / London Buses bus service then TfL fares (which now means Oyster / Travelcard etc, no cash fares) apply throughout the route, even outside the GLA boundary, so as . The 465 and K3 are both TfL bus routes.

Routes that are other operators' services that come in to London aren't TfL services are not (broadly speaking) Oyster-able.

It is not always as simple as "red buses are TfL services" - for example at Potters Bar, the 84 and 242 are 'non London' services operated commercially by Metroline with buses that are in a red livery, they are not TfL services. The 299 however is part of the TfL network.

I can't speak for train companies, but the time it took some TOCs to adopt Oyster suggests the latter. Although it may be more about how much they get from TfL for use of Oyster rather than the concept itself.

 

[MLR]

May I ask where all this information discussed today is coming from? Is it published somewhere or is it insider (industry) knowledge?

http://www.govia.info/gtr/

 

[mister-sparky]

http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/cms_page_media/1254/GTR route summary map.pdf

Dartford a Thameslink/Southern route in September 2014... Since when?!

 

[ST156]

Apologies if this has already been covered on the thread, had a quick search but couldn't see any reference to it.

Will any direct PBO - KGX services still run from 2018 or will all services from Peterborough be diverted through the core and onto Horsham? Is the plan just to run PBO-KGX during the peaks?

I understand that some KLN & CBG services will start/terminate at the cross so just wondered if anyone has found any official references as to how this will work for Peterborough services?

 

[Stats]

Some pdf readers are showing the Dartford line, while others aren't. This suggests to me that it is hidden behind a layer which some pdf readers are not recognising and so the Dartford line is unintentionally appearing.

 

[Hadders]

It's going to be very confusing with some outer suburban services going to St Pancras and others going to Kings Cross.

I suspect this will cause much confusion with passengers. I do hope the departure screens at both stations will show departures/arrivals for each other.

I also suspect Finsbury Park will become an even more important interchange point as practically all trains, wherever they originate will call there.

 

[Jonny]

It's going to be very confusing with some outer suburban services going to St Pancras and others going to Kings Cross.

I suspect this will cause much confusion with passengers. I do hope the departure screens at both stations will show departures/arrivals for each other.

I also suspect Finsbury Park will become an even more important interchange point as practically all trains, wherever they originate will call there.

As well it might, since it happens to be in TfL zone 2 - inbound, many people may use it. Alternatively, since King's Cross and St Pancras are adjacent to each other, they might not be too bothered about it.

 

[Class377/5]

Some pdf readers are showing the Dartford line, while others aren't. This suggests to me that it is hidden behind a layer which some pdf readers are not recognising and so the Dartford line is unintentionally appearing.

Its because its an eariler version of the plans where Dartford still played a part. Not quite sure why GTR did a map showing it unless it was an opition that they offered the DfT but was rejected.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's going to be very confusing with some outer suburban services going to St Pancras and others going to Kings Cross.

I suspect this will cause much confusion with passengers. I do hope the departure screens at both stations will show departures/arrivals for each other.

I also suspect Finsbury Park will become an even more important interchange point as practically all trains, wherever they originate will call there.

Im not so sure there will be a lot of confusion if the two brands are marketed well. People don't seem to be too confused between Kings Cross and Moorgate now. Don't forget there will be strict stock divisions per route with 700s for Thameslink, 377/365 for Kings Cross and 313 replacements for Moorgate.

 

[petersi]

Im not so sure there will be a lot of confusion if the two brands are marketed well. People don't seem to be too confused between Kings Cross and Moorgate now. Don't forget there will be strict stock divisions per route with 700s for Thameslink, 377/365 for Kings Cross and 313 replacements for Moorgate.

For example (may not be timetabled just for illustration)

I can see it being frustrating to just miss a Thameslink train to Peterborough then miss the next train to Peterborough from platform 0 3 minutes latter.
Particularly if the 2 stations maintain information screens that do not display information from the other.

Perhaps kings Cross should be renamed St Pancras International eastern concourse

 

[Aictos]

2 FCC staff at my local station were talking about oyster recently. One of them had been told at a staff briefing for the new franchise that it is planned to extend oyster to WGC and Hertford North but no date given yet for implementing this.

Very sorry but to my knowledge there HASN'T been any staff briefings from Govia apart from what is publicly available, there is a lot of rumours going around though.

If you have a look at the various documentation that Govia have supplied, it states both Oyster and The Key will be extended from September 2015.

 

[SF-02]

Was there an exact reason Dartford was removed from one of the destinations over the past couple of years? And which Dartford line was proposed - I think it may have been Bexleyheath but anyone know why? Was it scrapped because the thinking that people could easily swap at London Bridge or was it entirely down to more trains on the loop?

Maybe the plan was for 2 tph to replace 2 charing cross / cannon street trains to free up paths. Bexleyheath has 3 going to Victoria in the peaks in addition to 6 or 7 to CX / CS so doubt it would have been in addition to all those.

A shame if plans for a route to Dartford are 100% cancelled (which is pretty certain and this PDF a mistake) as it would've been a nice bonus for years of upheaval.

 

[Class377/5]

Was there an exact reason Dartford was removed from one of the destinations over the past couple of years? And which Dartford line was proposed - I think it may have been Bexleyheath but anyone know why? Was it scrapped because the thinking that people could easily swap at London Bridge or was it entirely down to more trains on the loop?

Maybe the plan was for 2 tph to replace 2 charing cross / cannon street trains to free up paths. Bexleyheath has 3 going to Victoria in the peaks in addition to 6 or 7 to CX / CS so doubt it would have been in addition to all those.

A shame if plans for a route to Dartford are 100% cancelled (which is pretty certain and this PDF a mistake) as it would've been a nice bonus for years of upheaval.

Basically they were abandoned as they reduced capacity for Southeastern services in the peak because they had to cross quite a few tracks. Most of the work at London Bridge for TLP is about making things simple, where as Dartford services make things more complex and less robust.

 

[Hadders]

For example (may not be timetabled just for illustration)

I can see it being frustrating to just miss a Thameslink train to Peterborough then miss the next train to Peterborough from platform 0 3 minutes latter.
Particularly if the 2 stations maintain information screens that do not display information from the other.

That's exactly the issue. I do hope some thought is going into how this problem is going to be overcome.

It might not be too much of an issue to a savvy rail user but imagine the confusion for someone not used to how things work.

Coming from the Underground heading for Peterborough, Stevenage or Cambridge do I head for St Pancras or Kings Cross?

 

[jon0844]

Finsbury Park will be a more sensible choice at some times of the day, but that could make it extremely busy. It already has plenty of people swapping from the Moorgate services at peak times.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk