London buses have become cashless

[Greenback]

Interesting. I didn't think it would affect many people, but I thought those that were caught out would have been quite vociferous about it!

 

[Deerfold]

Interesting. I didn't think it would affect many people, but I thought those that were caught out would have been quite vociferous about it!

There's been quite a lot of publicity on buses so I'd expect those who simply thought it inconvenient to switch to Oyster have done.

There might be a few stories on Friday and Saturday night as people who only use the bus after a big night out find they have trouble getting home.

 

[Greenback]

I was thinking more of those who were visiting London and so may not have travelled on a bus for a while. Or visited London for a while.

 

[Busaholic]

Too late now, but given all TfL bus routes are flat fare why not an 'exact fare only' farebox which the driver has no access to (i.e. as done in many towns and cities in the past, particularly with municipalities like Preston) and could be emptied every night. I'd even suggest TfL nominating a different charity each year to receive this money.

 

[radamfi]

Too late now, but given all TfL bus routes are flat fare why not an 'exact fare only' farebox which the driver has no access to (i.e. as done in many towns and cities in the past, particularly with municipalities like Preston) and could be emptied every night. I'd even suggest TfL nominating a different charity each year to receive this money.

LT used Fareboxes on the Red Arrow buses for many years until the remaining Red Arrow routes 507 and 521 were replaced by bendy buses around 2003. Fareboxes still require processing at the end of the day, and TfL want to save the costs of handling the cash.

 

[starrymarkb]

Some of my work's customers have picked up on this and are interpreting it as all UK buses no longer take cash!

 

[Deerfold]

Too late now, but given all TfL bus routes are flat fare why not an 'exact fare only' farebox which the driver has no access to (i.e. as done in many towns and cities in the past, particularly with municipalities like Preston) and could be emptied every night. I'd even suggest TfL nominating a different charity each year to receive this money.

Because this is about saving the money on cash handling.

Given the strictures on TfL funding at the moment I'd be surprised if people would be happy about money that could be spent on services going to charity (and it'd still require all the spending on cash handling that happens at the moment).

Some of my work's customers have picked up on this and are interpreting it as all UK buses no longer take cash!

Well it is half of all English bus journeys.

 

[jon0844]

Cash handling is expensive, so you keep it or get rid of it - not some halfway house.

I believe that's why some cash machines at train stations that were once switched from free to paid-for went back to being free, as a way of dispensing notes instead of banking them.

 

[Robertj21a]

Lol! Perhaps I should make an effort to read the discarded copies I occasionally happen upon, it sounds quite entertaining!

But, back on topic, were there a lot of complaints or incidents on Sunday and Monday? Has anyone heard?

Heard a few comments from bus drivers and managers - nothing very much of any concern. Seems to be a few who hadn't heard, or realised it affected them, plus a few who probably wouldn't normally have a clue about riding buses anyway.

 

[Abpj17]

Cash handling is expensive, so you keep it or get rid of it - not some halfway house.

I believe that's why some cash machines at train stations that were once switched from free to paid-for went back to being free, as a way of dispensing notes instead of banking them.

More likely to be Parliament's push against the increase in paid-for ATMs.

 

[Robertj21a]

Cash handling is expensive, so you keep it or get rid of it - not some halfway house.

I believe that's why some cash machines at train stations that were once switched from free to paid-for went back to being free, as a way of dispensing notes instead of banking them.

Doubt it. Notes for dispensing in ATMs have to be in perfect condition, they're often brand new.

 

[Busaholic]

LT used Fareboxes on the Red Arrow buses for many years until the remaining Red Arrow routes 507 and 521 were replaced by bendy buses around 2003. Fareboxes still require processing at the end of the day, and TfL want to save the costs of handling the cash.

O.k., how about saying you can pay cash but it's £5 - many nightbus users would be happy to pay this rather than risk trying to find a taxi/minicab. Maybe this could be a concession only available between midnight and 6 a.m. say. TfL couldn't then say it was costing too much to collect!

Actually, and here's a radical thought, how about being able to purchase an Oyster card directly from the driver? (INCLUDING A £3 handling charge). I used Red Rovers and Twin Rovers from when they were introduced about fifty years ago, obtainable from any Underground station or bus garage initially. I lived in Eltham, loads of bus routes, no tube or bus garage within miles. It annoyed be then, even as a kid, and in my (brief) trainee management spell on the bus side with L.T.E. I made myself unpopular by posing such questions of the managemeny.

 

[jon0844]

I think the point is removing any cash handling altogether. Perhaps a Oyster vending machine could work though, with them dotted around London near or next to ATMs. That's not a bad idea even for the daytime, and the place allowing the installation of the machine would get a cut of sales like any travel/ticket agent.

 

[Robertj21a]

O.k., how about saying you can pay cash but it's £5 - many nightbus users would be happy to pay this rather than risk trying to find a taxi/minicab. Maybe this could be a concession only available between midnight and 6 a.m. say. TfL couldn't then say it was costing too much to collect!

Actually, and here's a radical thought, how about being able to purchase an Oyster card directly from the driver? (INCLUDING A £3 handling charge). I used Red Rovers and Twin Rovers from when they were introduced about fifty years ago, obtainable from any Underground station or bus garage initially. I lived in Eltham, loads of bus routes, no tube or bus garage within miles. It annoyed be then, even as a kid, and in my (brief) trainee management spell on the bus side with L.T.E. I made myself unpopular by posing such questions of the managemeny.

The main point of the exercise is to remove cash handling from the bus.

 

[Greenback]

Cash handling is expensive, so you keep it or get rid of it - not some halfway house.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that processing cash payments works out as the most expensive way of taking payment for a business.

It may have been on here somewhere!

O.k., how about saying you can pay cash but it's £5 - many nightbus users would be happy to pay this rather than risk trying to find a taxi/minicab. Maybe this could be a concession only available between midnight and 6 a.m. say. TfL couldn't then say it was costing too much to collect!

But it isn't just the collection costs that matter, it's processing the money afterwards as well. There's also the risk of theft and vandalism when people know that there is money on the bus.

By removing the facility for cash payments, TfL have cut costs and taken away an incentive to try and rob a bus at the price of inconveniencing a tiny percentage of their customers.

Actually, and here's a radical thought, how about being able to purchase an Oyster card directly from the driver? (INCLUDING A £3 handling charge). I used Red Rovers and Twin Rovers from when they were introduced about fifty years ago, obtainable from any Underground station or bus garage initially. I lived in Eltham, loads of bus routes, no tube or bus garage within miles. It annoyed be then, even as a kid, and in my (brief) trainee management spell on the bus side with L.T.E. I made myself unpopular by posing such questions of the managemeny.

Presumably this would have to be bought by card, or we are back to square one with the cash processing costs and risk of theft!

And how many people will actually buy from the driver when there are other locations where they can be bought without the additional fee? I think it will be very few, and probably mostly outside the centre of London or during the small hours.

 

[fowler9]

Doesn't it take the risk of theft off the company and place it almost entirely on the customer. You get your card nicked and someone uses it, the public loose out. I can see why bus companies would want to promote it.

 

[jon0844]

The customer is presumably always at risk of theft, but if the buses no longer have to handle cash there might be other indirect savings. There might be a lower insurance cost, as the risk of a robbery is reduced (or vandalism). It might also please the unions that drivers are at less risk.

 

[hassaanhc]

Today I was on the hourly 166 from Epsom, which has a few low frequency Tfl bus routes but the local station is not in the oyster area. There was a woman who didn't use the bus regularly and needed to travel to Banstead for a job interview. Luckily someone paid her fare for her with their contactless card. I'm not aware of how easy or difficult it is to obtain/top up an oyster card in Epsom. These outlying areas with just the one tfl route out of several bus routes are going to be at a bit of a disadvantage :?

 

[fowler9]

The customer is presumably always at risk of theft, but if the buses no longer have to handle cash there might be other indirect savings. There might be a lower insurance cost, as the risk of a robbery is reduced (or vandalism). It might also please the unions that drivers are at less risk.

Whilst I am obviously glad that the drivers would be less at risk who is now completely at risk without any shield between themselves and the idiots. Don't get me wrong I have mates and mates families who are bus drivers and taxi drivers, I know the risks they take. Lets face it the companies aren't really doing it for the safety of their staff other than to save money from their staff claiming against them.

 

[Tom B]

As for insurance, I'm not sure there'd be that much saving, surely the risk of cash being nicked is when moving bulk cash - which I suspect would be done by specialist contractors in the first place.

I'm also not sure whether TfL would remove bandit screens, although they again are something quite specific to London and other large cities.
Lothian had the best idea with them - they had adjustable screens, so the driver could have it down most of the time, but pull it up if he wished.

I think those that will get caught out will be visitors from other parts of the UK who don't keep up to date with changes or plan their travel in advance. People like my mum and dad spring to mind! They would be genuinely bewildered at not being able to pay cash for a bus ticket. Well, they would if they didn't have me to tell them these things!

It is ironic that in London you are obliged to pay with an Oyster or bank card; outwith London, barring a few major cities, you are obliged to pay only with cash.
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TfL has a procedure for vulnerable people which bus drivers have recently been reminded of.

Can I suggest people read TfL's response to the consultation:

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/cashless/results/cashless-bus-consultation-report.pdf

I don't expect everyone to suddenly change their minds and agree its the best thing since sliced bread but at least you will know what TfL are doing about this.

I have to say that TfL's policy and what bus drivers do appear to be two very different things. Presumably due to it being such a big system, with so many sub-contractors, different depots etc. Many bus drivers, for example, refused cash prior to the facility being officially withdrawn.

 

[GodAtum]

Today I was on the hourly 166 from Epsom, which has a few low frequency Tfl bus routes but the local station is not in the oyster area. There was a woman who didn't use the bus regularly and needed to travel to Banstead for a job interview. Luckily someone paid her fare for her with their contactless card. I'm not aware of how easy or difficult it is to obtain/top up an oyster card in Epsom. These outlying areas with just the one tfl route out of several bus routes are going to be at a bit of a disadvantage :?

Interesting edge case. I wonder how people will top up?

 

[FOH]

Interesting edge case. I wonder how people will top up?

In that scenario she'd surely be better with a contactless debit/credit card. Wasn't there a stat that said roughly the whole population has at least one contactless card? In my wallet I've only got one that isn't.

 

[radamfi]

Presumably drivers are supposed to ask if the passenger has a contactless card. This would take care of most situations, and in the unlikely event of the passenger not having one, then it is likely someone on the bus could use theirs in return for cash.
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Doesn't it take the risk of theft off the company and place it almost entirely on the customer. You get your card nicked and someone uses it, the public loose out. I can see why bus companies would want to promote it.

If you lose your card, the banks will refund any lost money as a result of fraudulent use.

It is actually more the case that bus companies in the UK outside London accept cash more than probably anywhere else in the world. Many even sell weekly tickets on the bus which is nuts. Most places outside the UK have off bus alternatives to paying in cash for single journeys and almost always for season tickets.

First were claiming that they would implement touch in touch out for bank cards many years ago, and that is why they replaced all their ticket machines. So what happened to that?

 

[Deerfold]

In that scenario she'd surely be better with a contactless debit/credit card. Wasn't there a stat that said roughly the whole population has at least one contactless card? In my wallet I've only got one that isn't.

I haven't got one. I used to have one before I moved my current account (2 years ago). I have one debit and 3 credit cards.

 

[Greenback]

I imagine TfL don't really care if people lose their cards or have them stolen. After all, they might have been pickpocketed or have had all their cash stolen so be unable to pay by any method. I don't think the lack of cash payment facilities makes a lot of difference to TfL's mindset about such things. They are concentrating on running the transport network in challenging circumstances.

In most cities I've been to, paying cash on buses, trams or metro is always the most expensive way to travel. I'd be surprised if more operators world wide didn't follow London and move towards cashless payments completely.

 

[talltim]

So, making the same point over and over is not going to move the discussion forward...

So now is the time to plan ahead and set up an auto top-up for your Oyster, thus ensuring you won't get caught out in future.

The problem with auto top-up is that it can take you into an unauthorised overdraft with you really being aware.

 

[Mojo]

Surely if you want to pay cash to travel by bus it's £8.90 Off-peak and £9.00 Peak (with discounts for Railcard holders and Children without a Zip card), and you have to buy your ticket before boarding from a number locations

 

[jon0844]

As TfL goes cashless, Uno Bus has been doing a survey online (aimed primarily at students, but also to the general public) and the wording of the questions suggests that there's little point in asking questions as they've already made up their mind.

Their plans are:

a) Introduce mobile 'm-ticketing'
b) Introduce ticket machines at bus stops to dispense tickets before boarding.

Yes, they're thinking of doing what TfL did years ago and got rid of because clearly the machines either broke, or were vandalised/robbed!

Now, we're just a few miles from London. Uno buses even have some routes going into London. You'd think that they might be aware of how things work in London, what London has tried and what it is planning to do.

And yet we have all of the buses fitted with new ticket machines that accept smartcards (so far ITSO complaint bus passes) so they could easily introduce smartcards for passengers, or almost certainly start accepting contactless payment cards.

But, no, that's far too forward thinking. Sometimes I do wonder what planet the University of Hertfordshire (and indeed Hertfordshire County Council) are on.

 

[radamfi]

The problem with auto top-up is that it can take you into an unauthorised overdraft with you really being aware.

You don't have to use a debit card for auto top-up. Credit cards are accepted at no extra charge. In fact, the cheapest way to top-up is by using a good cashback credit card, for example the Santander 123 card which gives 3% cash back on TfL, National Rail and petrol station transactions, up to a £300 a month, albeit with a £24 annual fee. There are other cashback cards offering at least 0.5% cashback.

 

[hassaanhc]

Interesting edge case. I wonder how people will top up?

There must be an oyster ticket stop in the area? I'm not familiar with the location so I don't know where the nearest one is. The oyster ticket stop finder on the tfl website is not working either :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In that scenario she'd surely be better with a contactless debit/credit card. Wasn't there a stat that said roughly the whole population has at least one contactless card? In my wallet I've only got one that isn't.

My dad has one contactless card but my mum doesn't, and my 15 year old brother certainly doesn't! Until a few months ago I didn't have one either.