Salford Central - connection to Liverpool line?

[Darren R]

I am as certain as anyone else would be with the information I have to refer to ... there are likely to be some layout changes at Victoria West Junction to allow the Chord trains to access 4 and 5 at Victoria; the Chord signalling designs are not yet fully finalised so no-one can give you a definitive answer yet.

That's interesting - doesn't that then result in operating problems at Vic and Vic West Jc? (Although noting what you say about the plans not yet being finalised.) It would result in a situation whereby only platform 6 would give non-conflicting movements for trains to/from Salford Crescent. Using any of the other through-platforms would conflict with trains to/from the Chord.

Given that post-Chord very few trains will terminate at Vic from the west, running instead to either Stalybridge or Rochdale, it would seem more logical to allow Chord trains access to platforms 3 and 4, especially with the way the Rochdale and Stalybridge-bound tracks are largely seperated between Vic East Jc (as was) and Miles Platting (again, as was!)

(Sorry - just slightly off-topic!)

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Bet the poor sod who draws up the plans wishes they were, the red green drawing I saw recently of Vic and the chord is insane!

We may have the same plan

 

[edwin_m]

Combining the information in JL's two posts, the normal uses of the platforms are

1. Bolton to Vic
2. Vic to Bolton
3. Liverpool to Vic
4. Vic to Liverpool AND Picc to Vic
5. Vic to Picc.

I think you may have been confused by the designations of Up and Down. While Ordsall Chord trains towards Victoria will be Down when they leave Deansgate and go round the Chord, they will be Up trains by the time they get to Salford Crescent (but only as far as Victoria where they will again become Down trains!). A swap of Up and Down is inevitable on at least one leg of a triangular junction and re-designating existing lines confuses everyone so it's most likely that the change will be made on the new chord.

The layout linked above isn't very clear but I believe the Piccadilly-Victoria trains would use P3 at Salford so each platform is normally used in one direction only. Having a bi-directional platform so close to a series of intensively-used flat junctions would be an operational disaster waiting to happen.

 

[The Planner]

The extra platforms will make it a nightmare to plan and the timetable I suspect will be fixed for a number of years with little scope to change. I hope there are some serious reduced overlaps at Salford Central otherwise it will just be locked up all the time, especially Irwell St junction.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think you may have been confused by the designations of Up and Down. While Ordsall Chord trains towards Victoria will be Down when they leave Deansgate and go round the Chord, they will be Up trains by the time they get to Salford Crescent (but only as far as Victoria where they will again become Down trains!).

In the famous St Trinian's film when trains were coming and going in all directions, when the member of the station staff was describing those events on the telephone, the part of what you say above that I have emboldened reminded me very much of that....

 

[snowball]

I think you may have been confused by the designations of Up and Down.

My aim in posting was precisely to overcome that confusion, as already exemplified in earlier posts. Of course I may have failed in that aim.

In my experience JL's posts are usually better informed than most, but tending (as they do) to the gnomic, they may benefit from being expanded, reworded or interpreted. I was trying to do this for his post #10 in the light of his #23.

While Ordsall Chord trains towards Victoria will be Down when they leave Deansgate and go round the Chord, they will be Up trains by the time they get to Salford Crescent (but only as far as Victoria where they will again become Down trains!).

If we interpret #10 on the assumption that "up" and "down" are to be understood as you say, we get

1. Bolton to Vic
2. Vic to Bolton
3. Liverpool to Vic
4. Vic to Liverpool AND Vic to Picc
5. Picc to Vic.

This would mean that Picc to Vic and Vic to Picc trains would have to cross each other's paths somewhere between Deansgate and Salford Central, and if extending east of Vic they would have to cross each other again somewhere east of Salford Central. This is presumably what LNW-GW Joint complained of in #13.

I don't think that makes sense. I prefer the interpretation of swt_passenger in #16:

I think the description above suggests a change of up/down direction at the station for the Ordsall Chord lines.

A swap of Up and Down is inevitable on at least one leg of a triangular junction

Obviously.

and re-designating existing lines confuses everyone so it's most likely that the change will be made on the new chord.

But that assumption (unless you assume #10 can be ignored) leads to the idea that Picc-Vic and Vic-Picc trains cross each other unnecessarily.

The layout linked above isn't very clear but I believe the Piccadilly-Victoria trains would use P3 at Salford so each platform is normally used in one direction only.

That entails assuming #10 is wrong, which was not my purpose. I wasn't attempting to come up with my own idea of how it should be done, I was trying to find an interpretation of #10 that minimised the implausibility.

 

[edwin_m]

I think I was a bit confused by trying to look at three different screens worth of info when I only have one screen. Like you I was assuming JL was correct and working from that. However I think I am a bit clearer now, but I now think the great sage may have made a rare error in post #10.

On this page:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ord\Volume 2 - Drawings\1) Planning Drawings

"TWA-1-3-001 Key Plan Part 3" is the key document (sorry). If you ignore the structure of the viaduct and just concentrate on the tracks, trains from Piccadilly merge into the line towards Liverpool about half way up. However towards the top of the plan is a crossover so these trains can cross onto the line from Liverpool and end up in Salford Crescent platform 3.

So leaving Up and Down out of it, I think the platform allocation is:

1: Salford Crescent to Victoria
2: Victoria to Salford Crescent
3: Liverpool or Piccadilly to Victoria
4: Victoria to Liverpool
5: Victoria to Piccadilly

This is also quite a nice passenger-friendly layout, as each of the westbound service groups has its own platform.

 

[PhilipW]

The above description sounds good. I would presume that any Victoria-Liverpool train could then be held in Platform 4 until the line ahead was clear from any Piccadilly-Victoria crossing over to get to Platform 3.

 

[edwin_m]

The above description sounds good. I would presume that any Victoria-Liverpool train could then be held in Platform 4 until the line ahead was clear from any Piccadilly-Victoria crossing over to get to Platform 3.

Yes, assuming the overlaps are short enough as suggested above. If there was a Victoria-Piccadilly train following the Victoria-Liverpool, it could get through via Platform 5.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Gnomic I might be*, but the fact remains that there are six lines on the west, five through the station and four at Victoria. Something has to cross somewhere...

Also, the TWA plan is not concerned with the details of the blood-tinged sweat required to actually signal this layout! There will have to be many ROL and minimum-length overlaps dotted about, but it isn't exactly a fast railway either.

The Planner and I can only pass on our observations on a draft design anyway, as that's all there is.


*though I wish I could be more direct at times.

 

[Viscount702]

So leaving Up and Down out of it, I think the platform allocation is:

1: Salford Crescent to Victoria
2: Victoria to Salford Crescent
3: Liverpool or Piccadilly to Victoria
4: Victoria to Liverpool
5: Victoria to Piccadilly

This is also quite a nice passenger-friendly layout, as each of the westbound service groups has its own platform.

That was my own understanding of how it would work based on the TWAO plan and the reason why in an earlier post I had queried JL's post on the use of platforms 3 & 4.

As JL and the Planner have said the design is not finalised and thinks could change.

I would however add something further into the mix.

Based on the current track layout at Ordsall Lane junction which I don't think is due to be changed but which might be improved I think it would be true to say that Platform 3 could also take trains from Bolton and Platform 4 for trains from Victoria to Bolton. It might add to the Capacity problem at Ordsall Lane Junction but might be useful.

I think I am correct in saying the lengths of Platforms 1 & 2 at Central are bout 140 metres therefore just able to take a 6 car train.

I don't suppose the lengths of platforms 3,4 & 5 are yet known but I would hope space permitting they would take 8 cars. If so an 8 car train to/from say Bolton might have to use platforms 3 & 4 rather than 1 & 2.

 

[Class 170101]

Trains using the same platform in different directions for normal working isn't uncommon.

How about Ladybank Scotland or nearer in the Northwest, Guide Bridge. It looked like the Stockport to Stalybridge service used the Manchester bound platform there when I was on it.

 

[edwin_m]

Trains using the same platform in different directions for normal working isn't uncommon.

How about Ladybank Scotland or nearer in the Northwest, Guide Bridge. It looked like the Stockport to Stalybridge service used the Manchester bound platform there when I was on it.

Yes there are quite a few - but you'll usually find the "wrong direction" move is infrequent and the "right direction" moves aren't particularly frequent either. It takes longer for a train to reoccupy a platform after the previous train departs if the two are running in opposite directions, and bi-directional use also increases the risk that a late train will delay other trains. So using the same platform in opposite directions at a busy station like Salford Crescent is not advisable.

 

[Class 170101]

Certain stations wouldn't work if this was the case. Stratford Platform 10 has become more regularly used for bi-directional working since the peak was tweaked a couple of years ago.

 

[edwin_m]

Certain stations wouldn't work if this was the case. Stratford Platform 10 has become more regularly used for bi-directional working since the peak was tweaked a couple of years ago.

Yes but I would guess it is all Up trains in the morning peak and Down trains in the evening, which should work at the same frequency as an equivalent unidirectional platform. What causes trouble is when the same platform is being used in both directions at about the same time.

 

[Class 170101]

Would Worcester Foregate Street qualify? Two platforms but parallell working.

 

[edwin_m]

Both platforms at Foregate Street have trains in both directions, but the service density on either is way less than it will be at Salford.

 

[Ships]

That was my own understanding of how it would work based on the TWAO plan and the reason why in an earlier post I had queried JL's post on the use of platforms 3 & 4.

As JL and the Planner have said the design is not finalised and thinks could change.

I would however add something further into the mix.

Based on the current track layout at Ordsall Lane junction which I don't think is due to be changed but which might be improved I think it would be true to say that Platform 3 could also take trains from Bolton and Platform 4 for trains from Victoria to Bolton. It might add to the Capacity problem at Ordsall Lane Junction but might be useful.

I think I am correct in saying the lengths of Platforms 1 & 2 at Central are bout 140 metres therefore just able to take a 6 car train.

I don't suppose the lengths of platforms 3,4 & 5 are yet known but I would hope space permitting they would take 8 cars. If so an 8 car train to/from say Bolton might have to use platforms 3 & 4 rather than 1 & 2.

The issue at ordsall lane is the OOU creative logistics freight terminal connection which means the junction cannot be remodelled for a high line speed.

The freight terminal is also a strategic freight site and the FOCs are as such unwilling to see it removed.

 

[muddythefish]

The issue at ordsall lane is the OOU creative logistics freight terminal connection which means the junction cannot be remodelled for a high line speed.

The freight terminal is also a strategic freight site and the FOCs are as such unwilling to see it removed.

When did a freight train last use the site ?

 

[The Planner]

Doesn't matter, the strategic bit is the ace card, unless a similar site can be found in the wider area then it could be buried under 20 foot trees and not be removed.

 

[Dunc108]

When did a freight train last use the site ?

A long time ago looking at how rusty the rail's were last time I passed!

 

[dggar]

removed.

Error on my part, not reading the original posting.

 

[edwin_m]

Doesn't matter, the strategic bit is the ace card, unless a similar site can be found in the wider area then it could be buried under 20 foot trees and not be removed.

Wasn't there a siding connection that was put in and never used somewhere beyond Salford Crescent on the Bolton line (where the Pendleton loop line used to come in)? If it is feasible to connect this to a freight terminal then could it take on the role of strategic site instead of Ordsall?

 

[Darren R]

Wasn't there a siding connection that was put in and never used somewhere beyond Salford Crescent on the Bolton line (where the Pendleton loop line used to come in)? If it is feasible to connect this to a freight terminal then could it take on the role of strategic site instead of Ordsall?

There were plans some years ago for a brand-spanking-new railfreight terminal at Agecroft. I think it was the mid-to-late 1990s, around the time Manchester Victoria's layout was being, ahem, rationalised. The current layout of the route from Vic West Jc through both Salfords Central and Crescent to beyond the erstwhile Agecroft Junction was introduced at around the same time, and I seem to remember that's when the double track connection to the proposed freight terminal was laid.

The tracks are still there, connected to the Bolton end of the GM Waste facility's sidings roughly where Agecroft Junction used to be. They sort of peter out in a boggy marsh after a couple of rail lengths!

I don't know what happened to the plans for the freight terminal. There are a few small industrial units there, but that's about all that was ever built.