Salford Central - connection to Liverpool line?

[Dawg]

Just wondering why Salford has not been connected to the Liverpool line heading out of Manchester Victoria - there are 2 unused platforms with empty trackbed (when were these decommissioned?)

After the recent track realignment work I thought it was happening, but no...

Seems the right thing to do to me - I understand that it wasn't done originally because of Exchange station, but now that's gone and the good accessibility to Manchester centre from Salford, I thought it a no brainer...

Any thoughts?

 

[Geeves]

When the Vic-Picc chord is built the lines will be altered so that the Liverpool trains can call at Salford Central. Probably going to be around 2018 -2019 before this happens at the current rate of progress. Besides the overheads going up, there have been no alterations to the layout yet.

I believe the lines were removed in the late 80s although I could be wrong. It was when works were completed at the Crescent end/Windsor Bridge junction, was previously four lines coming down from Salford Central rather than the current two. Back then the thoughts were that Victoria would be reduced to just one island platform and two through lines as all the other trains were transfered to Piccadilly.

How times change, 22 trains per hour passing through Vic through platforms and the bays now!

 

[Llama]

The lines were definitely still there through Central in 1992, and had definitely gone by 1995.
Incidentally the short 10mph stretch on the Up Chat Moss line at Deal Street Jn is a relic of the original layout - that 10mph corresponds with where the crossover was between Up Chat Moss line which avoided Central as it does now, and the Up line which ran through the platform, now lifted. The Down Chat Moss line is 25 throughout as it is basically the original formation relaid.

 

[snowball]

(Re)opening of extra platforms at Salford Central is an ambition of the City Council and an item in TfGM (Transport for Greater Manchester)'s list of transport projects but not officially part of the Northern Hub or the electrification project.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah, its in the priority list for TfGM transport projects to 2019 and since the funding for that list is already secured it should go ahead.

 

[snail]

The lines were definitely still there through Central in 1992, and had definitely gone by 1995.

And AFAIK never connected to the Chat Moss line. They were part of the 4 tracks to Windsor Bridge, now the freight loop to the works next to the Windsor lines.

 

[Dunc108]

When the Vic-Picc chord is built the lines will be altered so that the Liverpool trains can call at Salford Central. Probably going to be around 2018 -2019 before this happens at the current rate of progress. Besides the overheads going up, there have been no alterations to the layout yet.

I believe the lines were removed in the late 80s although I could be wrong. It was when works were completed at the Crescent end/Windsor Bridge junction, was previously four lines coming down from Salford Central rather than the current two. Back then the thoughts were that Victoria would be reduced to just one island platform and two through lines as all the other trains were transfered to Piccadilly.

How times change, 22 trains per hour passing through Vic through platforms and the bays now!

Yep, even TPE/Blackpool services are back Geeves, who would have thought that back in 1989? Even used one myself today from Lime St - Vic.

Some services Vic did hang onto beyond the Windsor Link opening, such as Barrow & North Wales services which went to the Airport when it opened in 1994.

 

[PhilipW]

I gather that the government has approved an extra three platforms as part of the local intrastructure program announced today.

I have no details. The presume the extra platforms will be:
- one direction to Victoria from Liverpool and Ordsall Chord
- one direction to Liverpool
- one direction to Ordsall Chord

 

[kevconnor]

I gather that the government has approved an extra three platforms as part of the local intrastructure program announced today.

I have no details. The presume the extra platforms will be:
- one direction to Victoria from Liverpool and Ordsall Chord
- one direction to Liverpool
- one direction to Ordsall Chord

Yes details are somewhat scant a quick look over a number of different sites and the best I can find is from the Manchester Confidential website as follows

Salford Central Rail Station

Improved passenger facilities and additional platforms to maximise the benefit of Northern Hub investment and serving increased demand in a key regeneration area of the Regional Centre. The three additional platforms will establish the station as an important element in the north of England’s refreshed rail infrastructure. The project is designed to double the number of trains able to stop at the station to accommodate growing passenger numbers and improve access to the expanding commercial districts of Manchester and Salford. The improved station will accommodate services on the existing rail network and also those using the proposed Ordsall Chord. In particular the platforms will enable trains from Liverpool, Leeds and Manchester Airport to stop at the station. Budget earmarked (subject to final scheme approval): Circa £20.5 million.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

1. Existing Up Salford
2. Existing Down Salford
3. (reopened) Up Chat Moss
4. (reopened) Down Chat Moss / Down Ordsall Chord
5. (new) Up Ordsall Chord

 

[PhilipW]

1. Existing Up Salford
2. Existing Down Salford
3. (reopened) Up Chat Moss
4. (reopened) Down Chat Moss / Down Ordsall Chord
5. (new) Up Ordsall Chord

Thanks for that. I am very used to the terms 'Up' and 'Down' when referring to London but not so used to them in other parts of Britain. So just to make sure there is no confusion 'Up' means 'Towards Victoria' and 'Down' means 'Away from Victoria'.

The use of Platforms 1-4 seems logical enough but I'm not sure I fully understand Platform 5. This implies that an 'Up' train from the Ordsall Chord has to cross over the 'Down' line before then turning to reach Platform 5. Depending where the crossovers are it might affect the 'Down' Chat Moss line as well.

Are there any diagrams showing the layout ? I would be interested in seeing them. As described above I get the impression that while the northern end of the Ordsall Chord may be two track, it acts like a single lead junction as 'Up' trains cross over to reach Platform 5.

 

[thealexweb]

There's this from Network Rail. Not exactly what you are looking for but still its interesting.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

1. Existing Up Salford
2. Existing Down Salford
3. (reopened) Up Chat Moss
4. (reopened) Down Chat Moss / Down Ordsall Chord
5. (new) Up Ordsall Chord

So, another capacity-eating scheme?
I know what they are trying to achieve but it is getting very congested round there!
Maybe all the line speeds will go up to compensate...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With operational matters in mind, has there been any thought on the matter of reinstating the trackwork layout between Salford Crescent and Salford Central to a better operational basis with future service patterns in mind ?

Said as one who remembers what the trackwork layout there used to be like in the late 1950's.

 

[cle]

Any mention of possibly renaming the station to try and drum up demand? Location perfect for Spinningfields and Deansgate but I bet many folk don't know it's there or are put off by the Salford moniker. Plus there is the new footbridge now.

 

[swt_passenger]

The use of Platforms 1-4 seems logical enough but I'm not sure I fully understand Platform 5. This implies that an 'Up' train from the Ordsall Chord has to cross over the 'Down' line before then turning to reach Platform 5. Depending where the crossovers are it might affect the 'Down' Chat Moss line as well.

Are there any diagrams showing the layout ? I would be interested in seeing them. As described above I get the impression that while the northern end of the Ordsall Chord may be two track, it acts like a single lead junction as 'Up' trains cross over to reach Platform 5.

I think the description above suggests a change of up/down direction at the station for the Ordsall Chord lines. Hence a down train from Vic becomes an up train in P5 towards the Chord, and a down train from Oxford Rd into P4 becomes an up train when it crosses over to the line out of P3.

 

[PhilipW]

I think the description above suggests a change of up/down direction at the station for the Ordsall Chord lines. Hence a down train from Vic becomes an up train in P5 towards the Chord, and a down train from Oxford Rd into P4 becomes an up train when it crosses over to the line out of P3.

Crikey. How confusing.

This would then make Platform 5 used by Ordsall Chord bound trains (sensible).

However does this not make the usage of Platform 4 more complicated as it is then used by both Victoria bound trains from Ordsall Chord and Chat Moss bound trains from Victoria. Surely not ?

 

[swt_passenger]

Crikey. How confusing.

This would then make Platform 5 used by Ordsall Chord bound trains (sensible).

However does this not make the usage of Platform 4 more complicated as it is then used by both Victoria bound trains from Ordsall Chord and Chat Moss bound trains from Victoria. Surely not ?

Ideally you'd probably try for a six platform station with all the junctions on the Vic side of the station, but if there are overall width constraints on the site doing it this way may be the only practical solution that gives adequate platform widths. I don't think bi-directional operation through a platform at a junction station is that rare though. In any case they'll probably provide additional flexibility to allow passing moves through other platforms - for example a down train from Vic might be able to pass a train in P4 by going through P3 if suitable crossovers and bidirectional signalling is provided - which is quite likely.

 

[Rail Ranger]

I don't think it has yet been mentioned that the layout at Salford Central is a legacy of history. The station was owned by the Lancashire & Yorkshire railway and has only ever been served by trains heading to or from Bolton or Wigan. The line from Manchester Exchange to Liverpool was owned by the London & North Western Railway and so trains to Liverpool did not stop at what is now Salford Central because there were no platforms on the LNW lines. Both lines have of course been under common ownership since the L&Y and the LNW merged in 1922!

 

[Dunc108]

With operational matters in mind, has there been any thought on the matter of reinstating the trackwork layout between Salford Crescent and Salford Central to a better operational basis with future service patterns in mind ?

Said as one who remembers what the trackwork layout there used to be like in the late 1950's.

Yes, it used to be 4 tracks between Crescent & Central upto the early 90's. I'm hoping any new platforms at Central are made totally flexible so trains from any direction are able to access. I had to chuckle thinking it'll almost be a replacement for Manchester Exchange when finished - indeed Exchange itself only had 5 platforms.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think it has yet been mentioned that the layout at Salford Central is a legacy of history. The station was owned by the Lancashire & Yorkshire railway and has only ever been served by trains heading to or from Bolton or Wigan. The line from Manchester Exchange to Liverpool was owned by the London & North Western Railway and so trains to Liverpool did not stop at what is now Salford Central because there were no platforms on the LNW lines. Both lines have of course been under common ownership since the L&Y and the LNW merged in 1922!

It was in many respects a relief station for Victoria, you could say it's being geared to that role once again and with many more services set to use it, it'll be an interchange in itself, almost the Manchester Oxford Road of the Victoria line when the new layout/platforms are open.

 

[cle]

It will also have the quickest journey times to Liverpool from Manchester, assuming TPE fasts stop there. Bolton too.

Good for Merseyside and Lancashire folk accessing Spinningfields employment potential.

Any indication on which trains would stop, and which not?

 

[snowball]

The proposed track layout between Salford Central and the Ordsall Chord can be deduced from the plans that are part of the application for the Ordsall Chord T&W Act order.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?root=&dir=\Projects\Northern Hub\ordsall-chord

I studied it at the time but can't remember the details now.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Thanks for that. I am very used to the terms 'Up' and 'Down' when referring to London but not so used to them in other parts of Britain. So just to make sure there is no confusion 'Up' means 'Towards Victoria' and 'Down' means 'Away from Victoria'.

Errr... not so simple in this case: Up Salford and Up Chat Moss go to Victoria, Up Ordsall Chord goes towards Piccadilly (away from Victoria) - historically two different railway companies and a new line that turns through 180 degrees ...

 

[PhilipW]

The proposed track layout between Salford Central and the Ordsall Chord can be deduced from the plans that are part of the application for the Ordsall Chord T&W Act order.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?root=&dir=\Projects\Northern Hub\ordsall-chord

I studied it at the time but can't remember the details now.

Thanks, but I'm afraid it's a bit too detailed. One can't see the wood from the trees. I have seen some track diagrams diagrams a while back with two options , A) and B). I have forgotten where.

 

[snowball]

1. Existing Up Salford
2. Existing Down Salford
3. (reopened) Up Chat Moss
4. (reopened) Down Chat Moss / Down Ordsall Chord
5. (new) Up Ordsall Chord

Errr... not so simple in this case: Up Salford and Up Chat Moss go to Victoria, Up Ordsall Chord goes towards Piccadilly (away from Victoria) - historically two different railway companies and a new line that turns through 180 degrees ...

Combining the information in JL's two posts, the normal uses of the platforms are

1. Bolton to Vic
2. Vic to Bolton
3. Liverpool to Vic
4. Vic to Liverpool AND Picc to Vic
5. Vic to Picc.

 

[swt_passenger]

The best overview of the entire track layout I found so far is in figure 2.1 of the environment statement Vol 4.4 (figures). As I surmised earlier, other through routes are possible, in fact in the context of PhilipW's queries there is an obvious route from the chord into P3 as well as P4.

The link to the relevant file is found about half way down this list:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...rdsall-chord\Volume 4 - Environment Statement

Rather than linking directly because it's one of those massive files often found in this sort of planning stuff, about 56 Mbytes so beware if browsing on your phone...

 

[Viscount702]

1. Existing Up Salford
2. Existing Down Salford
3. (reopened) Up Chat Moss
4. (reopened) Down Chat Moss / Down Ordsall Chord
5. (new) Up Ordsall Chord

Combining the information in JL's two posts, the normal uses of the platforms are

1. Bolton to Vic
2. Vic to Bolton
3. Liverpool to Vic
4. Vic to Liverpool AND Picc to Vic
5. Vic to Picc.

Joseph

Are you sure about the above. The plans for the Chord would suggest that Platform 3 is for trains to Victoria from off the Chat Moss Line and also off the Chord and that Platform 4 is for trains from Victoria for the Chat Moss Line. Platforms 1&2 and also 5 as per your post.

Your original post would suggest that Platform 4 will have a reversible line which wouldn't seem to be the case from the plans.

That said there are supposed to be track layout changes both to the West and East of Victoria to improve capacity etc but I don't think any of us have seen anything to show what those changes will be and in consequence it maybe that those changes would answer the above.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Joseph

Are you sure about the above. The plans for the Chord would suggest that Platform 3 is for trains to Victoria from off the Chat Moss Line and also off the Chord and that Platform 4 is for trains from Victoria for the Chat Moss Line. Platforms 1&2 and also 5 as per your post.

Your original post would suggest that Platform 4 will have a reversible line which wouldn't seem to be the case from the plans.

That said there are supposed to be track layout changes both to the West and East of Victoria to improve capacity etc but I don't think any of us have seen anything to show what those changes will be and in consequence it maybe that those changes would answer the above.

I am as certain as anyone else would be with the information I have to refer to ... there are likely to be some layout changes at Victoria West Junction to allow the Chord trains to access 4 and 5 at Victoria; the Chord signalling designs are not yet fully finalised so no-one can give you a definitive answer yet.

Also, all lines at Central (and in fact all lines for miles around it seems) will probably be bi-directional, at which point line names become a bit meaningless really.

At Central, there will probably be at least two platforms available to all services in both directions, just not sure about Crescent - Vic though.

 

[Viscount702]

I am as certain as anyone else would be with the information I have to refer to ... there are likely to be some layout changes at Victoria West Junction to allow the Chord trains to access 4 and 5 at Victoria; the Chord signalling designs are not yet fully finalised so no-one can give you a definitive answer yet.

Also, all lines at Central (and in fact all lines for miles around it seems) will probably be bi-directional, at which point line names become a bit meaningless really.

At Central, there will probably be at least two platforms available to all services in both directions, just not sure about Crescent - Vic though.

Thanks for that Joseph.

It seems that at the moment it is still work in progress.

Lets just hope the Chord gets built because otherwise the discussion will be pointless

 

[The Planner]

the Chord signalling designs are not yet fully finalised so no-one can give you an answer.

Bet the poor sod who draws up the plans wishes they were, the red green drawing I saw recently of Vic and the chord is insane!