First West of England (Bristol, Bath & The West)

[freetoview33]

Http://www.travelbristol.co.uk have a look at the mock timetable I have suggested for Thornbury.

 

[swifty]

Http://www.travelbristol.co.uk have a look at the mock timetable I have suggested for Thornbury.

Talking of the 622, it's going to be operated by Severnside Transport from September. I think that sums up the both the size of the vehicles need and the number of passengers that use the service.

 

[Class 33]

I like the X11 and X12 idea, however, I think the 309/310 do get busy and therefore X12 should run every 30 mins (or at least every hour, all day), along with running on a Saturday.

Whatever we all suggest, I think First are going to have some sort of plan for the 309/310/311, which probably involves the letter X. We'll have to wait and see what they do (probably X11 and X12 as quoted).

I think chances are the 309 & 310 will be renumbered X services(probably X11 & X12). But that will be it. No increase in frequency, nor any timetable or route changes. And they won't be limited stop.

 

[freetoview33]

Talking of the 622, it's going to be operated by Severnside Transport from September. I think that sums up the both the size of the vehicles need and the number of passengers that use the service.

Well indeed. My idea does cut down the services on the route

 

[swifty]

As expected the Bristol Streetlites are being delivered in Xpress Yourself livery, presumably for the X2/3 routes. It looks as though Bath have either 7 or 8, (47544-50/51) with the first of Bristol's being 51 or 52?

http://malsfotofile.smugmug.com/Hey...99298_xDfKFr#!i=3366074530&k=WXgWq7M&lb=1&s=O

I'd imagine we'd see the existing Xpress Yourself Darts used on the other N Somerset services as a result? Will be interesting to see what ends up moving around and the results for the S Glos service allocations.

 

[freetoview33]

It has to be for X2 and X3.

 

[Class 33]

Wonder what newer buses will be on the X49 by the end of the year then?

 

[swifty]

Wonder what newer buses will be on the X49 by the end of the year then?

I wouldn't bank on that if I were you. You've got to remember the Twitter ops are based at Empress Road!

 

[Class 33]

I wouldn't bank on that if I were you. You've got to remember the Twitter ops are based at Empress Road!

On normal days yes. But the Online Meet The Manager event on Thursday, it was regional manager Natacha Tagholm answering questions. Natacha works at Lawrence Hill Depot.

 

[Private Baxter]

New buses for MH?! Never thought I'd see the day. They look great anyway!

 

[swifty]

On normal days yes. But the Online Meet The Manager event on Thursday, it was regional manager Natacha Tagholm answering questions. Natacha works at Lawrence Hill Depot.

Having re-read the tweet, answered by a 'BJ', I think it's quite a play on the truth. It says 'newer' and I'd put money on the newer buses being the existing 59' plate Eclipses repainted and internally refurbished so passengers perceive they them to be 'new'.

 

[Class 33]

Having re-read the tweet, answered by a 'BJ', I think it's quite a play on the truth. It says 'newer' and I'd put money on the newer buses being the existing 59' plate Eclipses repainted and internally refurbished so passengers perceive they them to be 'new'.

Ah right. So will these refurbishments on these buses likely to feature better (non high back) seating?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well indeed. My idea does cut down the services on the route

Think you may struggle with your Saturday service on the 27 route to Tetbury though....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have been modifying and looking deeper into my ideas and will upload my new version later. The speeded up time from Parkway to Thornbury would come through running direct via Little Stoke Lane like the 319. I need to get back to my laptop to be able to look to give a more detailed answer.

And I was also thinking they may have been moved due to the uni holidays.

These answers are based on the new version (Which is now uploaded)

The theory is set departure times to Thornbury from the bus station at 10, 30 and 50 mins past the hour. Although some arrive in Thornbury just a few mins apart, but it is to provide even departures from Bristol.

X11 and X12 does save at least 20 mins end to end (Bristol - Dursley) the one 224 trip could be kept but without the Filton section of the route.

Currently Dursley departures from Thornbury on 207 and 311 are at
07:00, 07:30, 08:25, 09:30, 10:55, 11:30, 13:25, 13:30, 15:30, 15:35, 17:40 and 18:05, So my idea is more evenly spread out.

The 77 and 77A run every half hour to/from Cribbs.

I'm not saying there is a demand for a Bus Station to Parkway service, but there is a demand for a Bus Station to Thornbury and Parkway to Thornbury so might as well incorporate both in one service, which will make the bigger bus via Parkway more viable.

Also Cribbs does maintain a 30 min service to Thornbury and also an express service would provide another option also with it avoiding the "Thornbury loop" it wouldn't take too many passengers off of the other 2 services.

As for the timings they are based on the current timings, plus a few minor route changes. (Which would be made up for by rerouteing a few other services)

And the routes North of Thornbury (207/311 sections) would probs still require some subsidy but hopefully it would encourage a few more people to ride on them.

Final thing if you are comparing a Dursley to Bristol City Centre service you would have to take into account the getting to Cam&Dursley station which isn't very close to Dursley and also if you needed to go from Temple Meads to the Centre. Although yes the train would still be faster, it really depends on the exact bit you need to go to!

I don't think my ideas are perfect but I think they would work plus I am working on them more everyday to try an iron out issues so feedback is very much appreciated.

Last Last bit is, also with my idea Cribbs does get a service before 10am! So over 4 hours earlier!

Whilst I understand where you’re coming from, I don’t think you’ve really tried to appreciate where passengers are coming from in making their choices. I’ll try to illustrate the problems with what you’re proposing in a different way

Peak travel from Dursley/Berkeley to Bristol – the morning departure will be 06:56 (replacing the 224 at 07:04) but instead of getting to Bristol for 08:00, you’ll get there for 08:46. Basically, a journey of 56 mins doubles to 1hr 50. Meanwhile, someone from Berkeley sees their journey go from 43 mins to 1hr 04 but catching their bus at 06:31 instead of 07:17. Why would people go for that, especially when Dursleyans can get the 07:03 210 rail link into Cam & Dursley then get the 07:25 train into Temple Meads for 08:00?

Off peak travel from Dursley/Berkeley/Wotton to Bristol –I witnessed only 4 passengers travelling from Bristol to Dursley so will off peak be any better? Understand your point about ultimate destination in Bristol, and the location of Cam and Dursley station though a) there is a long strand of residential areas from Dursley to Cam so some may be only a short distance from that station and b) for a shopping trip, a 1034 35 from Dursley enables catching the 1056 train so even with a 20 minute walk means a 1h 20 journey rather than 1h 40/50 by bus.

Moreover, the theory to speed the time up involves omitting the single biggest off peak destination in Cribbs Causeway? To draw a parallel, you could speed the X7 from Chepstow to Bristol by omitting Cribbs but it is that destination that underpins the whole service. Remove the link from Dursley/Wotton to Cribbs and you may well jeopardise the service that you seek to bolster.

Travel from Thornbury to Bristol – the proposal means a 20 min service to Bristol though despite having clockface departure, the frequency enhancement is pointless when one service all but catches up another. As a Thornbury resident, would I prefer a consistent 20 min service to both Bristol AND Cribbs, or have a 20 min irregular service with a range of service numbers and routes to Bristol and a half hourly service to Cribbs?

The idea of “robbing Peter to pay Paul” or more accurately cross subsidy, seems all very laudable and even seem attractive but history has proven too many times that you fail to develop those services that have the potential to grow and support services that will never be able to flourish (important as they are in a socially necessary manner).

Understand why you've done it but I think trying to stimulate some sort of service for Dursley when it has a more than competitive rail service to Bristol is like pushing water uphill, and removing Cribbs from the 311 may be counter productive.

I'm with Class 33 - I think it might only be a renumber and even a speeding up or frequency increase might be a bit far thought I'd think a 20 min frequency and speeding up from Cribbs to town would be beneficial
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah right. So will these refurbishments on these buses likely to feature better (non high back) seating?

High back seating isn't necessarily bad, just not needed on city services. On the X49, it isn't so bad and certainly welcome on other services like the 173 and 376 where journey durations tend to be longer!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As expected the Bristol Streetlites are being delivered in Xpress Yourself livery, presumably for the X2/3 routes. It looks as though Bath have either 7 or 8, (47544-50/51) with the first of Bristol's being 51 or 52?

http://malsfotofile.smugmug.com/Hey...99298_xDfKFr#!i=3366074530&k=WXgWq7M&lb=1&s=O

I'd imagine we'd see the existing Xpress Yourself Darts used on the other N Somerset services as a result? Will be interesting to see what ends up moving around and the results for the S Glos service allocations.

I was thinking that it might be seeing the XY Darts on a relaunched Thornbury service though without a frequency increase, having smaller vehicles won't be solving the peak capacity problems!

 

[vicbury]

Think you may struggle with your Saturday service on the 27 route to Tetbury though....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Whilst I understand where you’re coming from, I don’t think you’ve really tried to appreciate where passengers are coming from in making their choices. I’ll try to illustrate the problems with what you’re proposing in a different way

Peak travel from Dursley/Berkeley to Bristol – the morning departure will be 06:56 (replacing the 224 at 07:04) but instead of getting to Bristol for 08:00, you’ll get there for 08:46. Basically, a journey of 56 mins doubles to 1hr 50. Meanwhile, someone from Berkeley sees their journey go from 43 mins to 1hr 04 but catching their bus at 06:31 instead of 07:17. Why would people go for that, especially when Dursleyans can get the 07:03 210 rail link into Cam & Dursley then get the 07:25 train into Temple Meads for 08:00?

Off peak travel from Dursley/Berkeley/Wotton to Bristol –I witnessed only 4 passengers travelling from Bristol to Dursley so will off peak be any better? Understand your point about ultimate destination in Bristol, and the location of Cam and Dursley station though a) there is a long strand of residential areas from Dursley to Cam so some may be only a short distance from that station and b) for a shopping trip, a 1034 35 from Dursley enables catching the 1056 train so even with a 20 minute walk means a 1h 20 journey rather than 1h 40/50 by bus.

Gloucestershire County Council has no ambition for better bus links between Berkeley / Dursley and Bristol. It does however have the ambition for the 207 to become hourly with better connections for people travelling to / from Berkeley to / from Bristol trains at Cam and Dursley Station.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Gloucestershire County Council has no ambition for better bus links between Berkeley / Dursley and Bristol. It does however have the ambition for the 207 to become hourly with better connections for people travelling to / from Berkeley to / from Bristol trains at Cam and Dursley Station.

To be honest, the rail link (210) was always a bit iffy and disappointing as the train service south is almost clockface yet the bus link isn't!

 

[freetoview33]

People getting the bus to/from Cribbs to Thornbury would see no change other than additional earlier trips. Buses would still run every 30 mins numbered 77/77A instead of 309.

People getting the bus from the bus station and up most of Gloucester road would see an increase in services to a clock face 20 mins.

People getting to bus to/from Parkway to Thornbury would retain an hourly service.

People living along the "Thornbury" Loop travelling North to Dursley could still get the earlier 77/77A/78 to Thornbury health centre to meet the X11/X12 as they have to do currently with the 309 and 311.

The advantages would be people from Dursley having a more even service to Thornbury and faster onwards to Bristol, which would also be helpful for people getting the bus to/from Thornbury and I'm sure there would be enough traffic on the other parts of the 78 and X11/X12 to sustain them.

Could still keep the 224, which would provide the once a day faster service.

I do fully understand your points but I do think these services could be sustained.

And if the X7 was retimed 15mins later there would still be a 30min frequency of fast buses to Cribbs from the bus station. So there are plenty of ways to change services around, to make up for the rerouting of other services.

Id agree there isn't much demand for the 78 between Parkway and Bus station but there is from Parkway to Thornbury and Bus Station to Thornbury so combined there would be demand.

 

[swifty]

I was thinking that it might be seeing the XY Darts on a relaunched Thornbury service though without a frequency increase, having smaller vehicles won't be solving the peak capacity problems!

I was under the impression that it was a North Somerset lead initiative? All of the enhancements have been in partnership with NSC, albeit as an upgrade to the GBBN work.

I'm sure of it wasn't we'd have seen the livery and branding used on routes such as the X7 and X39 by now?

 

[freetoview33]

I'm fairly sure the XpressYourself stuff was a more North Somerset thing, and also that South Glous Council wanted to extend the GBBN to Thornbury (Which other than bus stops) would include one of these things newer/bigger/more buses. So it is possible!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.travelwest.info/sites/default/files/documents/GBBN Monitoring Report summary.pdf

Few interesting facts

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I was under the impression that it was a North Somerset lead initiative? All of the enhancements have been in partnership with NSC, albeit as an upgrade to the GBBN work.

I'm sure of it wasn't we'd have seen the livery and branding used on routes such as the X7 and X39 by now?

I was just referring to the vehicles being cascaded (though I wouldn't mind the livery appearing elsewhere as I quite like it!!). Also, 309/10 has traditionally had some of the more "mature" fleet so something newer with faster journey times and some good marketing might well help generate growth on that service.

As for X7, that's a livery that has appeared in a number of First locations. The surprise is that the X39 Streetlites didn't arrive in it. Perhaps they knew that interworking with the 38 would be rampant!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ok, let me take it one at a time

People getting the bus to/from Cribbs to Thornbury would see no change other than additional earlier trips. Buses would still run every 30 mins numbered 77/77A instead of 309.

Earlier/later trips could be done now. However, what you're missing is the opportunity to improve the frequency to every 20 mins to both Bristol AND Cribbs Causeway - the latter is a major traffic destintation. You can do that AND speed up the current service (Thornbury town centre to Bristol in 48 mins).

People getting the bus from the bus station and up most of Gloucester road would see an increase in services to a clock face 20 mins.

Is that really important, given the number of buses that serve Gloucester Road?

People getting to bus to/from Parkway to Thornbury would retain an hourly service. Id agree there isn't much demand for the 78 between Parkway and Bus station but there is from Parkway to Thornbury and Bus Station to Thornbury so combined there would be demand

Yes, but retain the 312 to do that. Clearly demand for the 312 isn't strong as it's operated by short Solos and that's before you remove it from bits of Thornbury, Little Stoke, and without serving UWE. So for the sake of serving the 2 or 3 passengers who want the 312, you miss out on improving the service to Cribbs which is where First will make more money.

People living along the "Thornbury" Loop travelling North to Dursley could still get the earlier 77/77A/78 to Thornbury health centre to meet the X11/X12 as they have to do currently with the 309 and 311.

So anyone who lives North of Dursley and wants to get to Cribbs will have to get off at Dursley, wait for 20 mins and then get on a another bus? As I said before, why would people at Wotton and the like want to lose their direct link with Cribbs; after all, there's as much trade to there (if not more) than to Bristol

The advantages would be people from Dursley having a more even service to Thornbury and faster onwards to Bristol, which would also be helpful for people getting the bus to/from Thornbury and I'm sure there would be enough traffic on the other parts of the 78 and X11/X12 to sustain them.

This is the main problem. The tail wagging the dog in that every gets changed to provide Dursley with a faster hourly headway that STILL doesn't compete on time with the train. Also, do you really think that people want to spend 1h 40 on a bus.....really? I tell you, they won't which is why the 308 was withdrawn and why the 311 has been weakened because even whilst you speed it up, IT STILL DOESN'T BEAT THE TRAIN.

And if the X7 was retimed 15mins later there would still be a 30min frequency of fast buses to Cribbs from the bus station. So there are plenty of ways to change services around, to make up for the rerouting of other services.

That's a red herring. I don't think the issue is fast services from the city centre to Cribbs.....we've seen that with the 15 min 309/10

You're trying to shore up tendered services and push water uphill. First are a commercial organisation and the REAL OPPORTUNITY to grow the service is not by having a myriad of different routes, service numbers and losing established links.

Instead, they can provide a simple to understand 20 min headway and it doesn't require wholesale changes to virtually every bus service in Thornbury. If they do something, THAT is what they will do

 

[freetoview33]

Wonder if any Wessex Red servicess will change in September?

 

[Private Baxter]

I don't think the X39 and 38 still interwork, though not entirely sure to be honest. There is some interworking between 37/38 though obviously there's frequency diffrences there, and that might change anyway once Kelston Road finally reopens.

Re new streetlites; if they are all part of the ongoing development of the Greater Bristol showcase routes network, there's no reason to suppose that the Bath ones could in fact be used on 379...? (and 178 obviously). Just a thought since the others will be on X2/3. Or they might just end up on something entirely different such as Bath's route 5, as has been suggested several times.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't think there's enough new Streetlites to convert the 178/379 fully? PVR is 9?

 

[Rich McLean]

For anyone who is planning on travel to Torpoint via the Torpoint Ferry, take note of the below from PCB. No idea what First Devon have put into place. This is due to part of the General Public Sector strike action. As there is not Plymouth thread and this being a South West Thread, figured this would be the best place to put this instead of starting a new thread

As part of the general public sector day of industrial action taking place Thursday the 10th July 2014.
We have been informed that the Torpoint chain ferry will be closed to all traffic except emergency vehicles from Midnight this Wednesday until Midnight on Thursday.
This means that the Service 32/A which operates Plymouth to Torpoint via the chain ferry to Liskeard and the Rame Peninsula will not be able to do so.
To adapt for this day of action, Plymouth Citybus has prepared a revised alternative timetable for the day.
See our website for details it is the first item on the News page.
Service 32 Plymouth side will generally operate unchanged but with all services terminating at the Plymouth side of the Torpoint Ferry. See replacement Service 31
Service 32/A will operate as far as is practically possible the existing timetable between Torpoint Ferry Torpoint side to Liskeard (32A) and Cremyll (32).
To replace the service connecting Torpoint and Plymouth a Service 31 will be in place. (see our website for details)
This replacement service is to operate hourly from the Torpoint Ferry Torpoint side to Plymouth City Centre, via Antony, Trerulefoot Tideford Saltash to Plymouth Royal Parade.
Our intention or plan is to operate serving all bus stops between Torpoint and Sheviock. Then we will operate a non stop to St Budeaux square to enable customers to change for services 21/A for Devonport. Then the service will operate non stop to the City Centre.
We are operating via Saltash new road to Plymouth but this is only to take advantage of the bus priority for Pemros Road the bus will not be stopping to board and alight passengers.
Supporting the regular drivers on the day will be a mixture of driver trainees, admin staff, and managers, so we apologies in advance if the service is a bit below par on the day. We will endeavour to do our very best.
Should the Torpoint Ferry Service be running and available for buses, then we will revert back to our normal timetabled service. For the updates on the day we strongly recommend following our facebook page
Please accept our sincere apologies for the travel disruption faced on the day.

Will add first's details if I find them

EDIT: Nothing up for First yet

 

[Private Baxter]

I don't think there's enough new Streetlites to convert the 178/379 fully? PVR is 9?

I wouldn't have thought it was that high, seven or eight maybe, but you could be right. Either way I expect they'll pop on to the route from time to time.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I wouldn't have thought it was that high, seven or eight maybe, but you could be right. Either way I expect they'll pop on to the route from time to time.

0925 (178) arrives Bristol at 1121, returns 1135 (379) arrives Bath at 1315 so reckon that's 8 vehicles, so might happen. That said, with rumours of 178 being trimmed, wonder if the services will be lucrative enough for new kit? I think Bath locals (5 or 14) might be more likely but guess we shall see.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just seen newly arrived 42754 working the 184

 

[Private Baxter]

You're right I don't think the 178 is worth investing too much in, and on second thoughts the 379 doesn't have a huge patrionage so maybe not really worth it there either, but I guess we'll see. I'm looking forward to finding out anyway, and also to see what fleet changes will occur when everything settles down in a couple of weeks.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You're right I don't think the 178 is worth investing too much in, and on second thoughts the 379 doesn't have a huge patrionage so maybe not really worth it there either, but I guess we'll see. I'm looking forward to finding out anyway, and also to see what fleet changes will occur when everything settles down in a couple of weeks.

Looks like another incident and probable write off with 41389 in collision with a van between Willsbridge and the Lockeeper. Thankfully, don't believe there's any serious injuries which is the important thing

 

[swifty]

I don't think the X39 and 38 still interwork, though not entirely sure to be honest. There is some interworking between 37/38 though obviously there's frequency diffrences there, and that might change anyway once Kelston Road finally reopens.

The inbound 37 works a 38 back and vice versa, although I'm fairly sure the 332 was inter worked with the old 319/337 circuit?

Also did anyone else notice the Stagecoach Devon Trident driving round Bristol this morning?

 

[Class 33]

Quite some lengthy discussion about Bristol-Thornbury services going on here! Inspired by Freetoview33, I am having a go at creating a timetable on a spreadsheet for you to take a look at as well! EDIT: Actually I'll give that a miss, buidling a complete timetable! Will just post a small sample of a daily timetable instead.

I thought going by some comments that the 310 goes a quicker route into Thornbury avoiding the "Thornbury Loop" but looking at the timetable I see it appears to go the same route and takes the same amount of time as the 309 through Thornbury.

I have looked at my suggestion of my X12 idea which runs via the M32 and M4 to be routed into Cribbs Causeway. But with that you'd be looking at a journey time of about 1 hour 3 minutes, if following the 309/310 route from Cribbs Causeway to the Thornbury terminating point. So barely any difference to the 309 & 310 journey times.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Quite some lengthy discussion about Bristol-Thornbury services going on here! Inspired by Freetoview33, I am having a go at creating a timetable on a spreadsheet for you to take a look at as well!

I thought going by some comments that the 310 goes a quicker route into Thornbury avoiding the "Thornbury Loop" but looking at the timetable I see it appears to go the same route and takes the same amount of time as the 309 through Thornbury.

I have looked at my suggestion of my X12 idea which runs via the M32 and M4 to be routed into Cribbs Causeway. But with that you'd be looking at a journey time of about 1 hour 3 minutes, if following the 309/310 route from Cribbs Causeway to the Thornbury terminating point. So barely any difference to the 309 & 310 journey times.

My workings out were based on retention of existing timings and route from Thornbury to Cribbs then express from there to bus station.

Current timings are Thornbury town centre to Cribbs (23 mins) then to bus station being 25 mins rather than 31 mins, reducing overall time from 54 to 48 mins.

The section from Thornbury to Health Centre is 10 mins so Thornbury HC to town centre, 5 mins loading then Cribbs and express to Bristol is..... 10+5+23+25 = 1hr 3 mins!