Halton Curve upgrade is on

[Cheshire Rover]

But what does the timetable look like?

I think Northern currently have a franchise that covers this line so we should ask them.

 

[Wavertreelad]

But what does the timetable look like?

Probably not much more than a blank sheet of paper at the moment. Merseytravel conducted an initial study but the full details I think will only be published in September for the next meeting of the Liverpool Combined Authority meeting.

 

[jrleighton]

Warrington - Chester and Crewe - Chester electrified? Plus the Halton Curve too?

Would it be more likely that the ATW north wales routes would become more 'Wales focussed' by continuing from Chester south to Wrexham and onwards from there, rather than heading into England?

Either that, or such electrification would be a ploy to get the Welsh assembly to cough up the money to electrify Chester westwards.

 

[merlodlliw]

Warrington - Chester and Crewe - Chester electrified? Plus the Halton Curve too?

Would it be more likely that the ATW north wales routes would become more 'Wales focussed' by continuing from Chester south to Wrexham and onwards from there, rather than heading into England?

Either that, or such electrification would be a ploy to get the Welsh assembly to cough up the money to electrify Chester westwards.

There is already an overkill of South Wales services from North Wales,every other train goes to Cardiff,we have three in a row from Wrexham in the morning some replaced busy Birmingham services.
Do you see Manchester/South Wales terminating at Shrewsbury on the busy line from Cardiff.
Until it changes Welsh Government run the Wales & Borders franchise,sometimes the Borders element is forgotten by politicians.

 

[John R]

The link from Newport towards Ebbw Vale was made fit for passenger use a few years ago, but to date no regular services have used it, engineering work excepted. So if the Welsh Government is true to form, I'm not holding my breath for any new services. There are no obvious regular services terminating at Chester which could continue towards Liverpool, so either an existing service will need to be diverted, or a completely new service from Liverpool along the NW coast introduced, which will be very costly.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are no obvious regular services terminating at Chester which could continue towards Liverpool, so either an existing service will need to be diverted, or a completely new service from Liverpool along the NW coast introduced, which will be very costly.

Was Rhyl once said to be a favoured seaside report for people from Liverpool ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are no obvious regular services terminating at Chester which could continue towards Liverpool, so either an existing service will need to be diverted, or a completely new service from Liverpool along the NW coast introduced, which will be very costly.

Until 2004, the 2-hourly Birmingham-Shrewsbury-Chester services terminated there and would have been ideal candidates to run on to Liverpool.
Instead, they replaced the Crewe-Holyhead services west of Chester, along with the new Cardiff-Chester services.
There were no new services on the NW coast (except for Gerald).

 

[Cheshire Rover]

The link from Newport towards Ebbw Vale was made fit for passenger use a few years ago, but to date no regular services have used it, engineering work excepted. So if the Welsh Government is true to form, I'm not holding my breath for any new services. There are no obvious regular services terminating at Chester which could continue towards Liverpool, so either an existing service will need to be diverted, or a completely new service from Liverpool along the NW coast introduced, which will be very costly.

Merseyrail have been pushing hard for the line to be reopened. Maybe they have some plans afoot.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Merseyrail have been pushing hard for the line to be reopened. Maybe they have some plans afoot.

There are obvious commuting benefits of a service to and from Chester and/or Ellesmere Port to Lime Street via Runcorn Widnes and South Liverpool Stations, although not many passengers might make the full trip if it is quicker via the Wirral route. Off peak there is a huge potential for leisure travel in both directions from a service along the North Wales coast to Liverpool, especially for places like Rhyl and Llandundo.

The scheme is all about bringing better connectivity to the area along the North Wales border, South Wirral and Halton with the authorities either side of the border working closely together to facilitate growth in the economy in the areas.

 

[8A Rail]

Was Rhyl once said to be a favoured seaside report for people from Liverpool ?

Either showing your age or having a stab in the dark. Along wth Abergele, Prestatyn, Taleacre, and Abergele, they were some locations that Scousers went on holiday too but you are talking 50+ years ago now. Since then we go all over the world!

 

[merlodlliw]

Was Rhyl once said to be a favoured seaside report for people from Liverpool ?

In its heyday Rhyl attracted holidaymakers from many areas by Rail,Liverpool people have a liking for Talacre/Tyn Y Morfa/Gronant, during the war hundreds were moved into Talacre from the Liverpool Blitz, I recall the hundreds of tin huts built almost overnight to house them.

However Rhyl is now totally run down, I can not think of anyone wanting to spend a holiday there out of choice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Until 2004, the 2-hourly Birmingham-Shrewsbury-Chester services terminated there and would have been ideal candidates to run on to Liverpool.
Instead, they replaced the Crewe-Holyhead services west of Chester, along with the new Cardiff-Chester services.
There were no new services on the NW coast (except for Gerald).

Correct, I also heard from another rail source yesterday,that Gerald may finish in May 2015, the WG yearly revenue funding for Gerald is the same cost as the six Fishguard trains.

 

[Wavertreelad]

In its heyday Rhyl attracted holidaymakers from many areas by Rail,Liverpool people have a liking for Talacre/Tyn Y Morfa/Gronant, during the war hundreds were moved into Talacre from the Liverpool Blitz, I recall the hundreds of tin huts built almost overnight to house them.

However Rhyl is now totally run down, I can not think of anyone wanting to spend a holiday there out of choice.

North Wales remains a popular area for day trippers from across the North West, whilst many people from the area still make trips to Liverpool to go shopping. For those without their own means of transport a decent rail link with attractive fares could be very popular especially if supported by the North Wales Tourist Board etc.

 

[6Gman]

There are obvious commuting benefits of a service to and from Chester and/or Ellesmere Port to Lime Street via Runcorn Widnes and South Liverpool Stations, although not many passengers might make the full trip if it is quicker via the Wirral route. Off peak there is a huge potential for leisure travel in both directions from a service along the North Wales coast to Liverpool, especially for places like Rhyl and Llandundo.

The scheme is all about bringing better connectivity to the area along the North Wales border, South Wirral and Halton with the authorities either side of the border working closely together to facilitate growth in the economy in the areas.

It would be nice to think this was the case, but on my recent trips down the coast the usual 2-3 car formations were scarcely busy.

 

[ivanhoe]

Was Rhyl once said to be a favoured seaside report for people from Liverpool ?

It certainly was Paul but the most favoured way of getting there was by Crosville Buses. Such was the demand in the 50's and 60's, that Crosville would lease extra buses from LCPT( Liverpool Corporation Passenger Transport. I am even old enough to remember going on a Crosville from Speke to Rhyl using the transporter bridge from Widnes to Runcorn.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Either showing your age or having a stab in the dark. Along with Prestatyn, Talacre, and Abergele, they were some locations that Scousers went on holiday too but you are talking 50+ years ago now. Since then we go all over the world!

Would being 69 years of age qualify me for the first part of your query ?. I remember people who lived in the prefab's on Kirkstone Drive very near to Ford cemetery in the 1950's, prior to their eventual relocation to the new council estate on Hatton Hill Road in Litherland.

Do those reminiscences bring memories back to the more elder of the forum membership who might read this posting.

 

[Holly]

... There are no obvious regular services terminating at Chester which could continue towards Liverpool, so either an existing service will need to be diverted, or a completely new service from Liverpool along the NW coast introduced, which will be very costly.

London to Chester should be extended to Hooton.

Mostly because Chester station is difficult to access by car and there is very limited parking there.

Hooton station has spare platforms, excellent road access and lots of space to expand the car parking.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are obvious commuting benefits of a service to and from Chester and/or Ellesmere Port to Lime Street via Runcorn Widnes and South Liverpool Stations, although not many passengers might make the full trip if it is quicker via the Wirral route. Off peak there is a huge potential for leisure travel in both directions from a service along the North Wales coast to Liverpool, especially for places like Rhyl and Llandundo.
The scheme is all about bringing better connectivity to the area along the North Wales border, South Wirral and Halton with the authorities either side of the border working closely together to facilitate growth in the economy in the areas.

An electrified turn-back station (Beechwood) on the curve itself would support a service. Beechwood-Lime Street with a significant amount of traffic coming from Runcorn station which is presently under-served.

 

[Wavertreelad]

London to Chester should be extended to Hooton.

Mostly because Chester station is difficult to access by car and there is very limited parking there.

Hooton station has spare platforms, excellent road access and lots of space to expand the car parking.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---.

Not sure this would benefit the Halton curve?

An electrified turn-back station (Beechwood) on the curve itself would support a service. Beechwood-Lime Street with a significant amount of traffic coming from Runcorn station which is presently under-served.

I could see a station at Beechwood, especially if there was a large car park as being justifiable, but I'd rather see terminal destinations further afield offered via the curve.

It would be nice to think this was the case, but on my recent trips down the coast the usual 2-3 car formations were scarcely busy.

This may all be down to investment by the public and private sectors which will come with better connectivity to region as North Wales a huge potential.

 

[8H]

Hooton to Euston for sets that presently turn at Chester seems a really good idea. Much of the Wirral Peninsular population heading for Greater London would find this in practice a quicker link than travel via Liverpool. The car park size is attractive for railheaders, as are the frequent trains from Birkenhead and Ellesmere Port, and the nearness of the West Wirral towns of Neston, Parkgate, and Heswall, a mini conurbation that only has the Wrexham Bidston service to connect into the national network.

 

[bluenoxid]

Hooton to Euston for sets that presently turn at Chester seems a really good idea. Much of the Wirral Peninsular population heading for Greater London would find this in practice a quicker link than travel via Liverpool. The car park size is attractive for railheaders, as are the frequent trains from Birkenhead and Ellesmere Port, and the nearness of the West Wirral towns of Neston, Parkgate, and Heswall, a mini conurbation that only has the Wrexham Bidston service to connect into the national network.

Certainly does sound a good idea.

Whilst going to North Wales is useful, would a Chester - Liverpool service on its own not offer some fairly decent benefits.

I do wonder if it is worth seriously discussing merging Halton, doubling of Wrexham to Chester and electrification of Wrexham to Warrington into one project and running into Liverpool. I'm aware that roads round here suffer, so could there be a benefit to creating a new P&R station to the south or even west of Chester.

 

[The Planner]

Would need extra stock to do it, I doubt that you're going to get a train to Hooton and back including a suitable turnround in what they have at Chester now or with the split and joins.

 

[Holly]

Would need extra stock to do it, I doubt that you're going to get a train to Hooton and back including a suitable turnround in what they have at Chester now or with the split and joins.

I'm sure it would be worth the extra cost if someone were to do the arithmetic. There is a huge unmet need for the car owner travelling to/from the south by rail.
Perhaps an extra unit or two could enable a much needed "theatre-goers service" too (Euston to Hooton leaving Euston around midnight).

 

[The Planner]

Ive no doubt Virgin would love to do it, providing someone chucks them the cash to pay for it and the DfT specs it and then pays NR to clear the route. Can't see it to be honest.....

 

[edwin_m]

Are there any Holyheads that run as 5-car to/from Euston? If so these would not be able to go to Hooton as well. Other option would be for VT to promote the connection via Merseyrail and offer advances etc similar to those from Chester (which they may do today, I haven't checked).

 

[Holly]

Ive no doubt Virgin would love to do it, providing someone chucks them the cash to pay for it and the DfT specs it and then pays NR to clear the route. Can't see it to be honest.....

It should be made part of the next franchise round. Someone has to up front to pay for a study of the business case is the most obvious hurdle.
The need is quite plain to me. Hooton is, if you will, the natural West Cheshire and Wirral Parkway station.

 

[8H]

Wirral Peninsular proper as a geographical unit is probably over 400K population. That seems a long distance through service rail market that has just been ignored and dumped the go via Liverpool, change there, and like it or lump it box since March 6th 1967. Surely time to have a fresh look? As Holly says, Hooton is a natural Parkway too.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wirral Peninsular proper as a geographical unit is probably over 400K population. That seems a long distance through service rail market that has just been ignored and dumped the go via Liverpool, change there, and like it or lump it box since March 6th 1967. Surely time to have a fresh look? As Holly says, Hooton is a natural Parkway too.

But Wrexham won the beauty contest for a tag-on service from Chester.
And there are no spare Voyagers to add in to the Chester circuit to make a Hooton extension work.
The North Wales coast believes it needs more off-peak through services (there is only the one at the moment), rather than turn everything round at Chester.
They are also better at lobbying than the Wirral, with its awkward split between Cheshire and Merseyside.

 

[OxtedL]

Wirral Peninsular proper as a geographical unit is probably over 400K population. That seems a long distance through service rail market that has just been ignored and dumped the go via Liverpool, change there, and like it or lump it box since March 6th 1967. Surely time to have a fresh look? As Holly says, Hooton is a natural Parkway too.

With four trains an hour already extant between Hooton and Chester, you are building this on the very marginal case of a through service maybe being slightly more convenient. We can argue hypothetically for a while about what 'very marginal' means here, but the net result is that you would end up polluting the reliability/punctuality of the otherwise self-contained Wirral Line by running high delay-risk London trains onto it and indeed across all lines at Hooton Jn for little visible benefit.

It's a neat sounding idea but cannot be taken seriously until the Chester area completely runs out of places to hide trains for portions of an hour. The Wirral area would be much better served if the large sum of money it would take to achieve this was used to otherwise improve existing Wirral Line links to Chester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Talking of long distance trains at Hooton. has any of the forum members recollections of travelling on the long-distance trains that ran from Birkenhead Woodside railway station ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Talking of long distance trains at Hooton. has any of the forum members recollections of travelling on the long-distance trains that ran from Birkenhead Woodside railway station ?

Indeed.
I used the "Western" line from Hooton to get to university at Reading sometimes, from 1961.
Two-hourly service, usually with a King in charge south of Wolverhampton.
By 1964 Westerns were in charge all the way from Chester.
LMS tank engines were always used on the Wirral, right till the end of through Paddington trains in 1967.
You had to change at Banbury for Oxford and Reading in those days, the only through train to Paddington via Oxford was the sleeper known unofficially as "The Zulu".
But I confess as a moderniser I preferred to travel up via Euston/Paddington through the electrification and resignalling of the WCML.
Class 40 on the Emerald Isle Express with 15 on, two Birkenhead coaches tacked on at Chester.
Anyway, WR compartments were 4-a-side, while LMR ones were 3-a-side and had armrests.
Much of this travel was on Sundays, and there was usually a goods train full of cattle from Ireland/Holyhead parked up at Chester as I passed through.
You could also get from Birkenhead to Llangollen/Bala/Barmouth, Oswestry and Aberystwyth, Bangor via the Chester avoiding line, and Brighton on summer Saturdays.

Woodside was busy with 3tph DMU to Chester, 1tph to Helsby and the roughly hourly steam workings beyond Chester.
Excellent interchange with the frequent ferry, many liked the fresh air rather than the Mersey railway (on a nice day).
All gone today, the ferry is just an hourly tourist circular run now.

 

[Holly]

Talking of long distance trains at Hooton. has any of the forum members recollections of travelling on the long-distance trains that ran from Birkenhead Woodside railway station ?

Not me, but my father was a mariner who lived in Wallasey at one time. He spoke of using Woodside station when he would join or leave his ship at Avonmouth.
Similarly, Bristol based sailors would make the reverse journey when joining or leaving ships in Birkenhead. The Merchant Navy administration offices where you could get paperwork done used to be at Morpeth Dock, I'm not sure of the exact location but certainly walking distance from Woodside Station.

I think Alfred Holt / the blue flue had some kind of discount deal in the days of GWR. Britain was, in many ways, a much more civilised and gentile place 60 or 70 years ago.