Ministers mull re-opening Great Central

[Metroland]

An historic railway line closed in 1966 could be re-opened to prevent meltdown on the overcrowded West Coast Main Line under proposals being considered by the Department for Transport.

Ministers and officials are to look at re-opening the Great Central Main Line, which ran from London's Marylebone Station to Manchester via Rugby in Warwickshire. An extension linking it to Birmingham is expected to be added if the project goes ahead.

Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly confirmed in a statement to the Commons that she was considering re-opening old rail lines to link London to Birmingham.

It is one of the options being examined following warnings that the West Coast Main Line could run out of capacity as soon as 2015, despite an £8.6 billion upgrade.

Rail experts said the Great Central Main Line, also known as the London Extension of the Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway, would be the obvious choice.

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk...objectid=20331942&siteid=50002-name_page.html

 

[Callufrax]

A ton of track (re-)laying will need to be done, though. Half of it's been lifted, hasn't it? Not to mention any buildings that have since been built on the old right-of-way!

 

[richa2002]

Miracle if something as big as that ever happens with the anti-rail government we have.

 

[Guinness]

Won't happen, this idea reoccurs every few years.

 

[Nick W]

Ah but part of it could be used to create a high speed line from London - Rugby with onward connections down the WCML, and then onwards to Leicester to give capacity to the East Midland city's London link.

I doubt anyone apart from a few enthusiasts want it back in the original form, to do so would be repeating history's mistakes.

 

[devon_metro]

Ah but part of it could be used to create a high speed line from London - Rugby with onward connections down the WCML, and then onwards to Leicester to give capacity to the East Midland city's London link.

I doubt anyone apart from a few enthusiasts want it back in the original form, to do so would be repeating history's mistakes.

Is it just me, or is the government only interested in the WCML?

Didn't it just get billions of pounds wasted on it?

 

[class 313]

Is it just me, or is the government only interested in the WCML?

Didn't it just get billions of pounds wasted on it?

This isn't the WCML though. This is more onto the CML. Sounds like a good idea. Though cant Chiltern go into Birmingham New Street via Coventry?

 

[Donny Dave]

Rather than spend god knows how many billions to build a new line to relieve the WCML, why don't the "experts" fund a second Welwyn Viaduct, and 4 track the ECML between Peterborough and Huntingdon?

This will create lots of capacity on the ECML, so some frieght can be shifted over from the WCML, thus creating room there....

 

[class 313]

Rather than spend god knows how many billions to build a new line to relieve the WCML, why don't the "experts" fund a second Welwyn Viaduct, and 4 track the ECML between Peterborough and Huntingdon?

This will create lots of capacity on the ECML, so some frieght can be shifted over from the WCML, thus creating room there....

Then you have to find ways to get more slots on the NLL...

 

[Bonemaster]

Rather than spend god knows how many billions to build a new line to relieve the WCML, why don't the "experts" fund a second Welwyn Viaduct, and 4 track the ECML between Peterborough and Huntingdon?

This will create lots of capacity on the ECML, so some frieght can be shifted over from the WCML, thus creating room there....

Its just not those areas that are the problems most of the ECML is double track north of Peterborough with the exact same issues as the WCML north of Crewe where fast trains and freight dont mix very well, Midland Mainline enhancements would add more I believe where freight could leave Wembley without disturbing the NLL and run to Sheffield where the services could be disperced between the WCML via Transpennine routes, ECML via Doncaster or Leeds or the S&C to Carlisle

 

[Max]

...run to Sheffield where the services could be disperced between the WCML via Transpennine routes, ECML via Doncaster or Leeds or the S&C to Carlisle

But that would then require investment in the Hope Valley Line or in a rebuild of the Woodhead line, as being discussed in another thread on this very board

 

[class 313]

Its just not those areas that are the problems most of the ECML is double track north of Peterborough with the exact same issues as the WCML north of Crewe where fast trains and freight dont mix very well, Midland Mainline enhancements would add more I believe where freight could leave Wembley without disturbing the NLL and run to Sheffield where the services could be disperced between the WCML via Transpennine routes, ECML via Doncaster or Leeds or the S&C to Carlisle

That would be well, but slots on FCCTL wont mix with freight. Maybe extending the wires north of Bedford could help. Creating new opportunities for FCC, and with the new stock for FCCTL more services.

 

[Nick W]

Rather than spend god knows how many billions to build a new line to relieve the WCML, why don't the "experts" fund a second Welwyn Viaduct, and 4 track the ECML between Peterborough and Huntingdon?

This will create lots of capacity on the ECML, so some frieght can be shifted over from the WCML, thus creating room there....

Railtrack were meant to do this by 2009. Wonder if someone at Network Rail has forgotten.

Question is, when will they do it, and what is the suitable diversion route?

 

[AlexS]

They wouldn't rebuild the entire GCML, what would be left to build isn't actually very much - essentially Aylesbury to Rugby. Beyond Rugby it veers off in the wrong direction to Nottingham, which these days is pretty much impossible for it to get to.

 

[ChrisCooper]

It could get to Nottingham, but the fact that much of the line through Leicester City Centre is built on, the track is privatly owned from Birstall to Ruddington, and the section into Nottingham has sections that are or will in future be part of the tram system, and Victoria station is now a car park, would make things difficult. The ruining of the only double track mainline preserved railway in the country, and of an inportant part of the Nottingham tram system, both present and future, in particular would not go down well. Then again, what is the track bed like from Calvert to Rugby, and how much work would be required to re-instate it?

 

[Metroland]

I believe when central railways released their plans, the line would go as far as Leicester then use the MML alignment to north of Nottingham, with various enhancements. For a high speed line you could realistically build a new alignment next to the M1.

I've never seen a plan to date which entails closing the preserved great central railway, really because of the problems of accessing central Leicester and Nottingham.

 

[djw1981]

Doe sit need to? As a primarily freight route (given that freight speeds are more compatible with Gc than WCML/ECML at present) then it need not go near city centres?

 

[Woody]

Is it just me, or is the government only interested in the WCML?

Didn't it just get billions of pounds wasted on it?

No its not just you,roughly a third of Labours MPs have constituencies on or close to the West coast Main Line,contrast that to say the virtually Laborless South West with its crap trains and infrastructure,say no more.

 

[class 313]

No its not just you,roughly a third of Labours MPs have constituencies on or close to the West coast Main Line,contrast that to say the virtually Laborless South West with its crap trains and infrastructure,say no more.

HST's are crap?

 

[Mojo]

When compared to the other two main lines serving the North, yes.

The Grand Central proposals involved using basically new lines to the Chiltern line through Gerrards Cross and Princes Risborough, to the junction with the old line at Ashendon Junction and across to the line at Grendon Junction between Aylesbury and Calvert, where it woud continue along the GCR.

 

[gingerheid]

They won't add two carriages to each train on a line that needs them like the WCML, but they might reopen Grand Central. Hmmm.

 

[mrcheek]

HST's are crap?

I think he was referring not to the excellent HSTs, but to the pacers that were recently sent to FGW, whilst those idiots up north who voted Labour get some nice 158s in exchange.

 

[Woody]

I think he was referring not to the excellent HSTs, but to the pacers that were recently sent to FGW, whilst those idiots up north who voted Labour get some nice 158s in exchange.

Thank god for the timeless HST,without them the railways in Devon/Cornwall
really would be stuffed by Labour.

 

[mrcheek]

Thank god for the timeless HST,without them the railways in Devon/Cornwall
really would be stuffed by Labour.

and yet its funny how the media always refers to them as "clapped out 30 year old trains", even though theyre better than anything else on the network (and pretty much every bit of them has been replaced in those 30 years, rather like Trigger's broom).
yet they praised Virgin for introducing new trains even though none of them are big enough for the routes they serve. whats the latest on Arriva XC bringing back HSTs?

 

[djw1981]

December 2008. They are at Brush now for engine changes IIRC.

Governments have always been political. The SRA did at least put a layer between the petty politics and the industry, such that it reduced the ''favourtism of one area against another.

However there is also a need to match resources - if Northern needed a faster unit / more capacity, and FGW did not need the capacity it has on the Devon lines, then the unit swap (ON PAPER) makes sense., What would have made more sense would be ordering some more units. 2 car class 172 for FGW anyone.....? Just need a LibDem administration for that I guess.

 

[paul1609]

I believe when central railways released their plans, the line would go as far as Leicester then use the MML alignment to north of Nottingham, with various enhancements. For a high speed line you could realistically build a new alignment next to the M1.

I've never seen a plan to date which entails closing the preserved great central railway, really because of the problems of accessing central Leicester and Nottingham.

The fact that you can build high speed lines alongside most motorways in this country is a myth. The curvature of most British motorways is too severe to build a high speed line alongside.

If you look at high speed 1 although it follows the M20 through kent which is a relatively straight motorway it needs a swayth of land about 1/2 mile wide to straighten out the curves of the motorway.

The M1 north west of London is often quoted as a possible high speed line route but if you compare the adjacent Midland main line a 100 mph rail route on an ordance survey map you can see that the curvature of the M1 is too severe for any sort of high speed line.
As urban devlopment has spread along the motorways it would only be possible to straighten the route with massive demolition of urban areas. This is also true of the M1 in the Nottingham Area.

This is a problem with any high speedline from London to the North West, short of tunnelling from London to the Chiltern Hills the obvious rail routes are the Chiltern lines via High Wycombe or Aylesbury but these are probably not straight enough for speeds in excess of 100-125 mph even with tilt.

 

[Metroland]

Yep exact hugging of a motorway doesn't makes sense, as the curvature tends to max out at around 1600 yards radius, which is only enough for 125mph with tilt.

But clearly following the rough alignment (with curve easing) is more politically and environmentally acceptable than a brand new alignment, which is why I drew attention to it.

 

[paul1609]

Sadly its a good idea in theory but doesnt work in practise. This is a map of the trowell area just south of nottingham. A high speed line could only be built through with extensive demolition or tunnelling

 

[Mojo]

What would have made more sense would be ordering some more units. 2 car class 172 for FGW anyone.....? Just need a LibDem administration for that I guess.

Ahahaha!

No, seriously, the Lib Dems hate any form of decent public transport from my experience! They'd probably just shut down the line and replace them with buses!

But why does the WM franchise get new trains for its mostly suburban services when the SW doesn't? Probably becuase it's an unorganised political mess IME. Whilst those in the West Midlands are nothing less than ruthless. Not that that's a bad thing.

 

[Snapper]

Is it just me, or is the government only interested in the WCML?

Didn't it just get billions of pounds wasted on it?

No, it's just you!

Billions are being spent on the railways across the country, and don't forget Thameslink and Crossrail, so this 'anti railway' government has actually agreed to build new railways...