Being a bit of a bonehead here, i take it itll be the 377/5s off to GN.
Do we know where the 387s are gonna end up going yet?
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Govia get Thameslink Franchise
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Do we know where the 387s are gonna end up going yet?
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Minstral25
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There is currently 4 per hour off peak Thameslink to Brighton, but from Dec 2015 there will be 2 Thameslink to Brighton and 2 Thameslink to Gatwick/Three Bridges calling at Purley, Coulsdon, Merstham and Redhill.
One assumes that the other two Thameslink to Brighton services will become London Bridge to Brighton to provide additional capacity when the core shuts down to London Bridge. Whether the London Bridge train will be the all stations south of Three Bridges or the fast service I don't know.
Redhill branch will lose both the Arun Valley trains and the Tonbridge/Reigate services to London Bridge so going from 4 trains per hour to 2 trains per hour off peak to London Bridge.
The Arun Valley trains will go down the quarry line and Redhill will get a new alternate Reigate/Tonbridge service that will go fast to East Croydon (unlike the London Bridge trains which were all stations) then Clapham Junction and Victoria.
This should improve reliability into London for Redhill but loses all connections from Redhill to the coast during the day.
That is off-peak only as details of Peak services are scarce for Jan 2015 onwards. The changes in off peak suggest there may be major changes during the peak.
Class377/5
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Thameslink services change as follows;
Current
4tph Bedford to Brighton
December 2014
2tph Bedford to Brighton
2tph Bedford to Elephant & Castle
2tph London Bridge to Brighton (off peak)#
Decemebr 2015
2tph Bedford to Brighton
2tph Bedford to Three Bridges*
2tph London Bridge to Brighton (off peak)#
From Dec 2015 Gatwick gets 6tph 'Thameslink'# services.
# may not be run with Thameslink branded stock
* Off peak extensions I believe from Elephant & Castle
So Redhill will get half the number of off peak services it gets now? Does that mean they are currently over served by trains vers number of people travelling? Makes sense to run more of the trains where people actually wish to go and/or board.
Hopefully similar logic will be applied to other franchises as they get renewed.
Hopefully similar logic will be applied to other franchises as they get renewed.
tsr
Established Member
Redhill is by no means over-served by trains which people want. In fact, I regularly hear complaints that there are no trains to Brighton during the day on weekdays. Whereas the 4tph to/via Horsham are really overkill - it's just a convenient route for Southern and NR, though I appreciate that changes could require much investment in infrastructure and may prove problematic. That said, connections to the routes via Barnham are most certainly better than nothing, and a lot of the convenience of direct services will be lost. However, there's recently been a problem with the balance of off-peak (and, more so recently, peak) destinations, so hopefully further connections through the centre of London will be welcomed.
Bear in mind that Redhill has great potential to be a very useful interchange. It has links from the Brighton Mainline (or the somewhat feeble proportion of it which it now participates in) to local towns such as Edenbridge, Tonbridge, Reigate, Dorking, Guildford and Reading - none of which are especially small places. It's a real pity that these connections will increasingly now have to be accessed via interchange bottlenecks such as East Croydon or Gatwick Airport, with a subsequent change at Redhill. Bearing in mind Southern have been known to describe the route through Redhill as a "branch" and their Control often remove calls at stations in the area at even the slightest encouragement from a delay or prospective delay, it is hardly surprising that this is the future of the local TSGN services.
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GatwickDepress
Established Member
I've always wondered why weekday Brighton stoppers never call at Redhill. Something like... perhaps this.
Minstral25
Established Member
Because they would have to cross over at both Stoats Nest and Earlswood from the Fast to Slow and reverse. This would delay Gatwick Expreses so the Arun Valley trains are used because they can stay on the slows all the way to Three Bridges
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I agree wholeheartedly with tsr's view of Redhill and am actively encouraging Govia and Network Rail to improve this concept in there control centres.
Redhill is under-served especially in the peak towards London. It would be nice to have some coastal services as changing at Gatwick is an awful experience
Class377/5
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Because Sunday's have a reduced level of service on the BML which means thats Southern's all stations services can cross over the lines twice much easier than on a normal week day timetable.
GatwickDepress
Established Member
My question was intended to be sort of rhetorical. I should've made that clearer! I'm well aware of the Brighton main line's capacity constraints, as it's been explained to me often enough. Thank you for explaining though. 
Thankfully there's no Southern Only fares from Redhill to Brighton, so one can change at Three Bridges to an FCC service if so desired. Gatwick Airport is not a nice place to wait.
Thankfully there's no Southern Only fares from Redhill to Brighton, so one can change at Three Bridges to an FCC service if so desired. Gatwick Airport is not a nice place to wait.
southern442
Established Member
Maybe the current Thameslink stoppers could be retimed to call there.
EDIT: I believe the peak ones already do http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G71933/2014/07/01/advanced
If they could get the off peak ones to do so as well that would be a convenient solution.
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So I take it the Arun line fast services don't cross the two junctions. This are of course the services that are being cut.
As it is, during the evening peak there is a Thameslink service which goes via Redhill.
Passengers going to Tonbridge from say Brighton, mostly have to change at Gatwick Airport and Redhill. The problem with Gatwick Airport is its long interchange times of 10 minutes. That stops so many useful connections.
As it is, during the evening peak there is a Thameslink service which goes via Redhill.
Passengers going to Tonbridge from say Brighton, mostly have to change at Gatwick Airport and Redhill. The problem with Gatwick Airport is its long interchange times of 10 minutes. That stops so many useful connections.
Govia went to the final FCC leadership conference and did a presentation showing some of their plans etc.
Redhill is underserved in the peak flow only because of the need to run all Southern trains as stoppers at Merstham and Coulsdon South and to leave a path for the residual Thameslink services. This timetable means that only short distance services can go that way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Weekday Brighton stoppers called at Redhill until the Arun Valley went 2tph in Summer 2000. At that time, the Brighton stopper was diverted to Chichester and the stops (and path) south of Gatwick were picked up by the hourly service to the WCML.
Ah, right. Thanks!
So does Redhill go down to 4tph off-peak from December 2014?
2tph Victoria to Reigate / Tonbridge
2tph London Bridge to Horsham
...before, from December 2015, the Thameslink (Bedford) to Three Bridges service restores the 6tph? Then at some point in the future the London Bridge to Horsham train also comes from Thameslink (Peterborough).
Isn't there a minimum specification of 6tph to Redhill in the Franchise Agreement?
Connectivity south of Redhill doesn't seem great if that is to be cut from 5tph to 3tph for a year. Even after that, 1tph Gatwick (FGW), 2tph Three Bridges and 2tph Horsham isn't a great offering.
Does the off-peak Reigate / Tonbridge service run to Victoria? Doesn't that defeat the object of removing crossing movements at Stoats Nest or Windmill Bridge? The Thameslink interactive map on the DFT website suggests faster journeys to *London Bridge* from Reigate by eight minutes.
When does this become clear? - eg publication of a draft timetable like Southeastern have done
Would they need to crossover at Earlswood though?. Why couldn't they run slow line to Balcombe Tunnel as
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W60099/2014/07/01/advanced does
That must be a rare example of a direct Norwood Junction to Brighton service. There can't be many direct services from there to Brighton and the reverse. May be there isn't much demand from there heading south.
Yabbadabba
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Crossing trains at Earlswood is so slow and all the signals are apparoach controlled.
Last night the 18.27 to Ore from Victoria was formed of 8 coaches instead of 12 and they didn't declassify first class. Most people got a seat. This morning the 7.41 Haywards Heath [from Littlehampton] was also short formed of 8 coaches and despite quite a few more people standing or sitting on the floor they still didn't declassify first class.
Given these two events are the case, perhaps they don't need more rolling stock for these two services. Just make more people stand and shorten existing rolling stock. As long as everyone can board the train, East Croydon excepted, as East Croydon had so many trains they can wait for the next one, what's the problem? Clearly they don't think there is one today as first class isn't declassified. Admittedly it wouldn't be popular with commuters, including myself, but seats are not included with your ticket, something people easily forget.
Given these two events are the case, perhaps they don't need more rolling stock for these two services. Just make more people stand and shorten existing rolling stock. As long as everyone can board the train, East Croydon excepted, as East Croydon had so many trains they can wait for the next one, what's the problem? Clearly they don't think there is one today as first class isn't declassified. Admittedly it wouldn't be popular with commuters, including myself, but seats are not included with your ticket, something people easily forget.
Yabbadabba
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Hmmm after spending all that money at Gatwick Airport so that the Gatwick Expresses stop crossing over the whole layout and blocking it up to get to platforms one and two, it looks like the Arun Valley fasts will be doing exactly that in the future, what a waste money of re-signalling it! Gatwick works really well at the moment now that they have de-conflicted it by taking out all the crossover moves.
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Minstral25
Established Member
The Arun Valley trains will presumably cross over south of Gatwick and hence they will not conflict with Gatwick terminators from London. The changes were done to avoid conflicts north of Gatwick station
Yabbadabba
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Hmmmm one single lead junction, two up and two down trains an hour crossing all the Brighton line traffic, expect delays!
When the Mid Sussex line trains were diverted to serve the fleshpots of Crawley and Gatwick rather than Dorking and Sutton, the trains switched over the 40 mph leads at Three Bridges put in for this during the BML resignalling and then called at Gatwick and East Croydon only to Victoria. It was only later due to Thameslink that these trains were made into slows and stopped at Clapham Junction, Redhill, Horley, Three Bridges and timings and reliability went down the pan.
In those days if the BML trains were running late up Mid Sussex fasts only used the various routes through Gatwick 1 2 or 3 to get to the up fast as an alternative to TB. The cross overs at Earlswood from to fast were rarely used in the up direction but down trains sometimes crossed to the slow at Stoats Nest, used the down through line at Redhill (always a bumpy ride at 70) and then over the then 45 crossings at Earlswood to get back on the fast down to Gatwick.
So returning the MidSussex trains to what they were before Thameslink appeared is only reverting the trains back to what they used to be. Perhaps the penny has finally dropped that the massive population growth in the Crawsham connurbation, Billingshurst, Barnham, Chichester and other places on Slovia's withered arm deserve a better faster service and might even get some of us back on the trains. With the developments being built and planned west of Crawley, North and West of Horsham, Billingshurst etc there will be even greater demand for a decent service from Crawsham to Gatwick and London rather then stop every 2/3 mins to stare into the backyards of Horley, Redhill and Couldson South and Purley.
Brian
Minstral25
Established Member
It was always a silly idea to use maximum 8 coach trains from the Arun valley to call at Redhill etc.
This is because there is enough requirement at the sleepy Sussex towns of Crawley and Horsham to generate passengers to mostly fill the Arun Valley trains and then they call additionally at the much larger and extremely busy station of Redhill where Govia have been forced to suppress the massive demand with extortionate fares and poor service.
The large house building program about to be launched in the Redhill area (and much of the South East) will add to this demand as well.
Splitting is a good idea for all involved but as I said previously they need to address the loss of South Coast services from Redhill maybe with the Brighton stoppers
This is because there is enough requirement at the sleepy Sussex towns of Crawley and Horsham to generate passengers to mostly fill the Arun Valley trains and then they call additionally at the much larger and extremely busy station of Redhill where Govia have been forced to suppress the massive demand with extortionate fares and poor service.
The large house building program about to be launched in the Redhill area (and much of the South East) will add to this demand as well.
Splitting is a good idea for all involved but as I said previously they need to address the loss of South Coast services from Redhill maybe with the Brighton stoppers
Southern do manage a few 12-coach trains from the Arun Valley on Saturday mornings now (although I accept that the Arun Valley trains are always somewhat busy at Redhill).
However, until they sort out the platform at Reigate, any trains starting there are limited to four coaches and, while eight coach trains can run to Tonbridge, it isn't ideal either with the short platforms on that route.
Minstral25
Established Member
Hopefully when the rebuild Redhill for Platform 0 they will consider a few things, such as stabling in the old depot area (being brought back for late 2014 according to rumours). Making sure that platform 2 can be used as a 12 coach southbound platform without crossing the Northbound lines and perhaps a new platform at Reigate where the current siding is, that will be capable of 12 coaches, so as to be able to turn round longer trains in disruption without disrupting the Gatwick to Reading trains.
Sadly it will probably be done on the very cheap and no improvements made
Sadly it will probably be done on the very cheap and no improvements made
Yabbadabba
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The 12 coach stabling at Redhill is what used to the old up Tonbridge goods loop, not as yet commissioned yet.
Reigate's siding is used at the moment for a booked move to get a Southern service out of the way to allow a FGW service to pass through. So any plans if there are indeed any for Reigate should include a siding even if it's only used for perturbation.
No signalling plans have been released for Redhill yet, so we will have to wait to see if there is to be any flexibility built into the new layout or is going to be the same layout with just an extra platform bolted onto it in the same way Gatwick platform 7 was.
Are they going to do platform 8 at Gatwick? The road seems clear right from the bridge, and the platform face too - with the rather big issue of where they've built the escalator! So the platform would need to be built out, I assume?
Might be useful for stabling fast line trains as with 7. Or if due to the escalator it could only be a short platform, possibly for some Tonbridge/Ashford bound trains?
Might be useful for stabling fast line trains as with 7. Or if due to the escalator it could only be a short platform, possibly for some Tonbridge/Ashford bound trains?
Yabbadabba
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There are no plans for a platform 8 and the current signalling and track layout doesn't have enough room for the crossover on the main line to depart a platform 8 or even the current platform 7 in the London direction. Doesn't mean to say that if someone wants to spends millions on it, it couldn't be done.
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