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Barton Under Needwood Rsmd to Sheffield

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gerryuk

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Can somebody please explain what possible benefit the taxpayer is getting from the heavily subsidised cross country, running this train empty from a depot just north of Birmingham to Sheffield?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C74167/2014/07/06/advanced

Surly the fuel bill alone on this must be astronomical. Why is this train not put into service in either Birmingham or Burton on Trent to Sheffield?
I thought that running trains out of service in the mornings from Leeds, Derby and Crofton to Sheffield, and then back again at night was a gross waste of money, but from Birmingham to Sheffield this really takes the biscuit.
I know why trains have to go to Leeds etc but as electrification comes on stream, if all these trains are going to continue to start and terminate in Sheffield, has the time not come to build a depot there.
 
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swt_passenger

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gerryuk said:
Can somebody please explain what possible benefit the taxpayer is getting from the heavily subsidised cross country, running this train empty from a depot just north of Birmingham to Sheffield?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C74167/2014/07/06/advanced

Surly the fuel bill alone on this must be astronomical. Why is this train not put into service in either Birmingham or Burton on Trent to Sheffield?
I thought that running trains out of service in the mornings from Leeds, Derby and Crofton to Sheffield, and then back again at night was a gross waste of money, but from Birmingham to Sheffield this really takes the biscuit.
I know why trains have to go to Leeds etc but as electrification comes on stream, if all these trains are going to continue to start and terminate in Sheffield, has the time not come to build a depot there.
Click to expand...

You'll be shocked to hear they run empty from there to Reading then? It's only just over an hour in your example, there are vast numbers of empty trains running similar or greater distances every day, all over the country, and XC already do actually have a whole range of stabling sites around the country - but sometimes trains have to run to/from Central Rivers as well.
 
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westcoaster

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They run ecs to chester and london and back daily its only to get stock on place for the daus service, as its a sunday mayne thats where its booked to statr from.

dont look here then

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y82081/2014/06/29/advanced
 
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Minilad

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You do realise to start that train from Birmingham would involve an additional 52 miles of running. Almost exactly the distance from CZ - Sheffield anyway. And a bit daft considering it would be running 15 mins behind a service train anyway.
It runs to form another service which is starting at Sheffield. And I am not aware of vast numbers of XC services starting and terminating at Sheffield normally.
And remember to start that train from Birmingham would mean it having to leave CZ possibly over an hour earlier and that could have massive crewing implications
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
westcoaster said:
They run ecs to chester and london and back daily its only to get stock on place for the daus service, as its a sunday mayne thats where its booked to statr from.

dont look here then

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y82081/2014/06/29/advanced
Click to expand...

Cross Country don't run ECS, or any trains, from Chester or London and back
 
westcoaster

westcoaster

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Minilad said:
You do realise to start that train from Birmingham would involve an additional 52 miles of running. Almost exactly the distance from CZ - Sheffield anyway. And a bit daft considering it would be running 15 mins behind a service train anyway.
It runs to form another service which is starting at Sheffield. And I am not aware of vast numbers of XC services starting and terminating at Sheffield normally.
And remember to start that train from Birmingham would mean it having to leave CZ possibly over an hour earlier and that could have massive crewing implications
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Cross Country don't run ECS, or any trains, from Chester or London and back
Click to expand...

Quiet aware of that, was just a general comment about the voyager fleet, and the location of central rivers.
 
ash39

ash39

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So you want more taxpayers money (your argument) to be wasted staffing a train that will run minutes behind an existing service, or building a depot in Sheffield just to reduce ECS movements ?!
 
berneyarms

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I think the OP should study realtimetrains a bit closer. He'd probably have a heart attack when he realises there are far longer empty workings, such as:

*Central Rivers-Holyhead (Sundays) (Virgin)- this is I think the longest regularly scheduled empty working on the network
*Central Rivers-Euston & v.v. (Daily) (Virgin)
*Crewe-Holyhead (Fridays) (Virgin)
*Crewe-Lancaster (Mon-Sat) (Virgin)
*Craigentinny-Glasgow Central & v.v. (Daily) (Crosscountry)
*St. Philips Marsh-Hereford (Mon-Sat) (First GW)
*Birmingham Moor Street-Wembley (Mon-Fri) (Chiltern)

These are just a few examples - unfortunately empty workings are a fact of life in any transport company, due to maintenance facility locations, staff bases etc.
 
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Eng274

Eng274

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Is/was there not also a Crewe-Glasgow (or vice versa) Virgin ECS movement too?
 
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bunnahabhain

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eastwestdivide said:
So do we have any figures on the relative costs of:
1. running an empty train for an hour (fuel*/staff/track access costs)
2. building, maintaining and staffing another depot?

*This article
http://www.atob.org.uk/technical/are-trains-really-green/
suggests 1.7 miles per gallon, which is probably not the "astronomical" of the OP's suggestion.
Click to expand...
Its a lot cheaper when you factor in depot costs, by a long way. This is why CrossCountry don't have a depot at Nottingham, but they do at Leicester, and they run ECS from Leicester and Tyseley to Nottingham for the start of the mornings services (and vice versa in the evening).
 
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gerryuk

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Thanks for the reply’s.
Back to my original example, Central rivers - Sheffield. Unless it has changed, there are no Cross Country crews based in Sheffield?
I was under the impression that the crews were based in Birmingham & Derby? If so would it not be more financially prudent to put this train into passenger service from either Burton on Trent or Derby on its way to Sheffield?
 
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Tomnick

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Does the ECS move from Central Rivers have a Guard diagrammed to travel on it? There's no requirement for one, so if not, there's one item of additional cost if you're going to put it into passenger service earlier...
 
eastwestdivide

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There's also a northbound XC service 15 mins before and 15 mins after your ecs, both of them calling Derby/Chesterfield/Sheffield and one of them also calling at Burton. So if I was doing the planning, I'd say converting the ecs to a service which is out-of sequence from the regular timetable and only going a short hop (for an XC) was definitely in the "not worth it" category.
 
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Wolf

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Northern run a weekday ECS from York to Heaton and a return usually formed of 142s to get them from Yorkshire to Heaton for Maintenence.
 
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