I was quite amused recently when a friend was sent to London on business and he had to catch a class 350 from Liverpool. He is a keen photographer and posted a photo of the train on Facebook. Another friend replied to it and commented that "You would have thought they would put you on an inter city train". I think this was an interesting comment for people who think that customers don't really notice what kind of train they travel on. It did look somewhat like something you would travel on on the Northern line on Merseyside. Oddly enough a similar comment was posted about the Pendolino he travelled back on.
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Class 350
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
Why did he catch a 350? Did he change at Crewe/Stafford? I thought the only direct Liverpool-London class 350 service finished years ago.
Yeah he changed in Brum on the way. His journey was fine, it is more a comment on the fact that people do notice what rolling stock they are on and that some are noticing that they are travelling long distances on something they would be used to going from Kirkdale to Central on.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
350s are slightly better than 507/8s, even if it is a 350/2 (aircon, 100mph, toilets).
Putting him on a 350 must have meant that he got a cheap fare, or why do it?
You get what you pay for (sometimes).
northwichcat
Veteran Member
350s are slightly better than 507/8s, even if it is a 350/2 (aircon, 100mph, toilets).
Putting him on a 350 must have meant that he got a cheap fare, or why do it?
You get what you pay for (sometimes).
Unlike in Spain we don't have PIS systems showing the current train speed so most people would not be aware of the exact speed the train is travelling at.
Looking at 6th Aug there's lot of £11 London Midland only Liverpool-London Advance fares available, while Virgin's £12 Advance tickets aren't available for a pre-14:00 arrival at Euston.
Gareth
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Funnily enough, I've heard people refer to the Liverpool-Birmingham service as "like Merseyrail". I have a soft spot for Class 350s, if only because of that fun, spaceship whine they make, but really, Liverpool-Birmingham should be an intercity service, not a regional express one. Another big thank you to the Strategic Rail Authority for that one.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Actually Voyagers can display the real-time speed, but I've only seen it once, on a Chester service with tilt not working so it never got above 110mph.
I think most Merseyrailers would recognise they were on a train doing more than 70mph (and not stopping every 2 minutes with the brakes squealing...).
The 350's are lovely units and I choose them every time if possible over a 507/8 when heading from South Parkway in to town after work. Thinking back to trips to the midlands as a youngster on HST's and various mark 2 carriages the 350's really aren't that good.
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They may be able to tell the difference in speed but at least two didn't think there was that much different between the 350 and the 507/8 they get to work.
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Actually Voyagers can display the real-time speed, but I've only seen it once, on a Chester service with tilt not working so it never got above 110mph.
I think most Merseyrailers would recognise they were on a train doing more than 70mph (and not stopping every 2 minutes with the brakes squealing...).
They may be able to tell the difference in speed but at least two didn't think there was that much different between the 350 and the 507/8 they get to work.
Gareth
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Yes, they're lovely units for fast commuter services. Not only is it far newer than the 507/8s but it normally doesn't stop anywhere between South Parkway and Lime Street (Mossley Hill in the peak?). But for Birmingham, let alone beyond, it's far from ideal.
Am pretty sure none stop at Mossley Hill. The next stop down the line West Allerton, is at the end of my road and none stop by mine. They all fly past my garden at about eighty mph. Like you say though, good for commuter services but not long distance which they seem to have been commandeered for.
I think laypeople notice the cab end and not much else at all.
Given that Birmingham is roughly equidistant by rail from both Liverpool and Manchester, it is interesting that these "commuter" services from Liverpool are only a couple of minutes slower than the "InterCity" services from Manchester. And I know which rolling stock I'd rather travel on for such a journey... 
I would quite like 350s, but then again I am a fan of Desiros 
I actually used 350107 earlier between Tamworth and Euston, 90 minute journey but didn't feel anything like that 
. Other trains used today were a MK4 set on East Coast and 158/165/170 diesels, and I thought the 350 was the best out of them. It is probably because of the door layout they don't seem like long-distance trains, whereas the 444s which have end doors but same seats no one would think it was a commuter unit.
I actually used 350107 earlier between Tamworth and Euston, 90 minute journey but didn't feel anything like that . Other trains used today were a MK4 set on East Coast and 158/165/170 diesels, and I thought the 350 was the best out of them. It is probably because of the door layout they don't seem like long-distance trains, whereas the 444s which have end doors but same seats no one would think it was a commuter unit.Like I say though, this is anecdotal but a none train buff thought a 350 looked like a local short distance train. I think that's what they look like. It is what they are. If the TOC managers weren't so cheap it is what the 350's would be operating.
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
The last LM service southbound used to call at West Allerton and Mossley Hill but it no longer does.
That must have been a good while ago. Would be interested to know when, West Allerton is the end of my road and it hasn't called there for a while.
SpacePhoenix
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What about a AC version of a 444 (344?) but with the cab of 380 (which would be required with the current crash regs)
Depends what subclass of 350 it is
Why London Midland don't have flip down tables fitted to the 350/2 is baffling
Fitting seat back tables in the 350/2s would be a very simple improvement. The 360s are also missing them. I'm just glad the 450s have them, very useful to have somewhere to put your coffee.
Techniquest
Veteran Member
The lack of fold down tables is a massive irritance on 350/2s, not good when you've got a piping hot coffee and tons of paperwork to do and nowhere to put anything. Especially if it's a long journey like Birmingham to London on the slower services!
350/1s, on the faster London to Birmingham services, are much better. Hopefully the 350/3s will suit the needs of travellers better than the /2s!
As for Liverpool to Birmingham on 350s, I find them most acceptable on such a journey. If you're going all the way it's a lot better if you're not on the ones stopping all stations Crewe to Runcorn mind, and again the 350/1s are the ones you want for the journey, but I've had /2s on it multiple times and it's still good. Unless of course I've not long got myself a Costa coffee and joined the train with no floor space to put my cup down on!
350/1s, on the faster London to Birmingham services, are much better. Hopefully the 350/3s will suit the needs of travellers better than the /2s!
As for Liverpool to Birmingham on 350s, I find them most acceptable on such a journey. If you're going all the way it's a lot better if you're not on the ones stopping all stations Crewe to Runcorn mind, and again the 350/1s are the ones you want for the journey, but I've had /2s on it multiple times and it's still good. Unless of course I've not long got myself a Costa coffee and joined the train with no floor space to put my cup down on!
cjmillsnun
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I think the jigs for the 444 bodies were destroyed. Shame really because they're a damn good unit (as are the 350/450s).
All they really need are some decent seats. I find the desiro seats very uncomfortable.
SpacePhoenix
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Were the jigs made from scratch or were they based on another Desiro variant?
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
I think it was something they inherited from Central that changed at the December 08 timetable recast.
samuelmorris
Established Member
The 360/1s are much the same as the 350/2s as far as I can tell, albeit a little more 'heavily used' shall we say. Still though, travelling on one the other day for the first time in a while reminded me, even in that interior config, they are a lot more pleasant than many other types of rolling stock out there...
Yeah I remember back in central trains days a few 170's called at Mossley Hill in the evening peak. I would sometimes catch them home from work to avoid getting a 142, would get a bus from Mossley Hill. Not a patch on the 37 plus mark 2's that used to call at West Allerton on the Cardiff. Just a personal opinion. Ha ha.
Going back to the 350's, I don't think providing trains with 3+2 seating is really on for a long distance service. Alright Merseyrail have some fairly lengthy services using suburban stock but even they are 2+2.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
The 350/2s were intended to replace 321s, the 350/1s were intended to be used on Liverpool-Birmingham services. However, only the 350/1s are currently able to run at 110mph and Liverpool-Birmingham is timed for 100mph running while some of the Euston services are timed for 110mph running.
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Given that Birmingham is roughly equidistant by rail from both Liverpool and Manchester, it is interesting that these "commuter" services from Liverpool are only a couple of minutes slower than the "InterCity" services from Manchester. And I know which rolling stock I'd rather travel on for such a journey...
09:07 departure from Manchester arrives in Birmingham at 10:33
09:04 departure from Liverpool arrives in Birmingham at 10:47
The former doesn't include a call at Macclesfield and the latter doesn't call at Acton Bridge/Hartford/Winsford so they could both be considered 'fast' services.
So the Liverpool service takes 17 minutes longer than the Manchester service.
Fair play, I just think that anyone who has regularly travelled from Liverpool to Birmingham over a few decades will have noticed that the rolling stock used on the journey has got progressively worse.
Techniquest
Veteran Member
Worse is a matter of opinion. Trains every 30 minutes and air conditioning, plus high reliability, must count for something surely?
With regards to the London to Birmingham services timed for 110mph running, are there many of those?
With regards to the London to Birmingham services timed for 110mph running, are there many of those?
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