Ticket office staff refusing to sell tickets originating at different station?

[BRX]

Apologies if this has already been dicsussed in other threads (I'm sure it has), but I couldn't find any using the search function.

Here are the journeys I wanted to make:
Saturday: Guildford to Ryde
Sunday: Ryde to Guidford
Monday: Guildford to Denmark Hill.

My intention was to purchase an off peak return from Denmark Hill to Ryde Pierhead (with Network Railcard). As far as I know that would be a legitimate ticket for these journeys as there's nothing to say I can't start short on the outward, and I'm allowed to break the return leg.

This would have been cheaper than buying a return GLD-RYP plus single GLD-DMK. It would also have saved me from having to buy a ticket on the Monday morning.

However, when I asked for this at Guildford station on the Saturday morning, the ticket clerk told me that she "wasn't allowed" to sell me a ticket starting from Denmark Hill. (I queried this because I've been able to do similar things in the past, and I could have done it online and picked up at the ticket machines, for example, but she was insistent that it couldn't be done). Instead she said she would sell me a GLD-RYP with an "extension" to DMK for the return journey. As time was running out before my train, I accepted. However, once on the train and having looked at what I had been given, the "extension" was in fact just a single GLD-DMK, and dated for the Sunday meaning that it was of no use to me when I came to do that journey on the Monday. In other words what I had been sold was not equivalent to what I asked for; ie a ticket that did not have a specified date for the return journey.

My question is - is it true that she wasn't allowed to sell me what I asked for?

I'd like to know before making a complaint...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

That's an odd one because last August my father and I bought a lot of random tickets from Guildford to cover our various odd moves that day - that even included a BZ6-Shenfield Return. The clerk seemingly enjoyed issuing them and even cracked a joke or two, and was only too happy to correct a ticket she wrongly issued a while later...

 

[Buttsy]

Apologies if this has already been dicsussed in other threads (I'm sure it has), but I couldn't find any using the search function.

Here are the journeys I wanted to make:
Saturday: Guildford to Ryde
Sunday: Ryde to Guidford
Monday: Guildford to Denmark Hill.

My intention was to purchase an off peak return from Denmark Hill to Ryde Pierhead (with Network Railcard). As far as I know that would be a legitimate ticket for these journeys as there's nothing to say I can't start short on the outward, and I'm allowed to break the return leg.

This would have been cheaper than buying a return GLD-RYP plus single GLD-DMK. It would also have saved me from having to buy a ticket on the Monday morning.

However, when I asked for this at Guildford station on the Saturday morning, the ticket clerk told me that she "wasn't allowed" to sell me a ticket starting from Denmark Hill. (I queried this because I've been able to do similar things in the past, and I could have done it online and picked up at the ticket machines, for example, but she was insistent that it couldn't be done). Instead she said she would sell me a GLD-RYP with an "extension" to DMK for the return journey. As time was running out before my train, I accepted. However, once on the train and having looked at what I had been given, the "extension" was in fact just a single GLD-DMK, and dated for the Sunday meaning that it was of no use to me when I came to do that journey on the Monday. In other words what I had been sold was not equivalent to what I asked for; ie a ticket that did not have a specified date for the return journey.

My question is - is it true that she wasn't allowed to sell me what I asked for?

I'd like to know before making a complaint...

If your GLD-DMK ticket is an anytime single, it is valid for 2 days beyond the start date.

 

[BRX]

If your GLD-DMK ticket is an anytime single, it is valid for 2 days beyond the start date.

It's an anytime day single. So as far as I am aware, only valid on the start date.

 

[RJ]

My question is - is it true that she wasn't allowed to sell me what I asked for?

Maybe. Some team leaders tell their staff not to sell certain tickets and at work, you're supposed to follow the orders of your superiors. Officially, you can buy almost any ticket from any ticket office. Put a complaint in, so the problem can be dealt with at its source.

 

[bb21]

Reports from forum members suggest that the standards at Guildford ticket office are varied, to use a kind word.

I suggest that a complaint is lodged with regard to this incident. You may even want to cheekily "charge" SWT a £20 "Penalty Fare" for such a ridiculous mistake.

 

[maniacmartin]

If I was offered an 'extension', I would be expecting an overdistance excess, not a totally separate single. I would also complain

 

[BRX]

Ok. Thanks everyone for comments. I'm going to make a complaint.

 

[TEW]

There is one lady who works in the ticket office at Guildford who is particularly bad. She seems to make even the easiest of transactions a pain for me. On the other hand there are some excellent clerks there too. I've complained on numerous occasions, but nothing ever changes.

 

[BRX]

The lady who served me didn't seem unhelpful or obstructive as such - just insistent that she couldn't do what I was asking for.

The situation wasn't helped by the fact that on a midsummer Saturday morning, only 2 out of the 5 or so windows were open, meaning that the queue stretched across the concourse to the entrance doors. Having queued for quite some time, with the train departure time approaching and a long line of others waiting behind me, I was pressured into taking what she offered me where I would usually have checked more carefully before leaving the counter.

 

[323235]

I had issues with one lady at Guildford who refused me a Guildford -boundary zone 6 ticket but last time I went I got the supervisor who didn't bat an eye lid and did it in 30 seconds. What colour hair did she have if you can remember?

I complained quoting the NCOC and TSA and they gave me roughly 5 x the cost of the boundary zone 6 ticket.

 

[RJ]

I had issues with one lady at Guildford who refused me a Guildford -boundary zone 6 ticket but last time I went I got the supervisor who didn't bat an eye lid and did it in 30 seconds. What colour hair did she have if you can remember?

I complained quoting the NCOC and TSA and they gave me roughly 5 x the cost of the boundary zone 6 ticket.

5x the cost?

 

[323235]

sorry meant to say 5 x the amount I overpaid which was almost equivalent of the £4.55 boundary zone 6 ticket

 

[drbdrb]

Simple solution: video the request and the refusal, then just get on the train. If they won't sell you a ticket...

 

[yorkie]

Simple solution: video the request and the refusal, then just get on the train. If they won't sell you a ticket...

Only if you were in a desperate situation where you really had no additional cash, or if you knew the Guards were going to be happy to sell a ticket and that you'd find a helpful Guard before an unhelpful RPI found you.

It's less hassle to over-pay and claim the money back later, and as others have said, you may well get more back as compensation. Also you are then 100% in the right and the TOC is 100% in the wrong as well as committing a franchise breach.

If they persist, report them to Passenger Focus and also ask the DfT to issue a franchise breach notice.

 

[TEW]

At Guildford you do have the problem of ticket barriers too. Whilst anyone may obtain a bridge pass in order to cross the bridge, there are many clear warning not to obtain a bridge pass and then board a train.

 

[tsr]

At Guildford you do have the problem of ticket barriers too. Whilst anyone may obtain a bridge pass in order to cross the bridge, there are many clear warning not to obtain a bridge pass and then board a train.

One could argue that ticket barriers are not to be used for the purposes of obstructing a passenger when they need to purchase a ticket by passing through them. In addition, there is surely no legislation which prohibits use of the public right of way in order to gain access to the platform to legitimately board the train (where the required ticket was not offered for sale), no matter how you access said right of way. The bridge passes may be a measure for identifying those who wish to use the right of way - but what if you then use that right of way as a means to access a part of the property (the platforms) where a business is providing a train service, with the intention of paying for that service rendered (having previously been unable to do so)?

I am not claiming the above definitely has any merit in practice, but maybe it is worth considering.

 

[TEW]

I'll have to go get a bridge pass later to check which legislation they refer to prosecution under for the illegitimate use of them. I just have a feeling if any RPI's saw you with a bridge pass, walking past the signs saying no bridge passes beyond this point, that they wouldn't be too happy.

 

[NLC1072]

Unfortunately this problem is rather wide spread and is completely wrong at impartial ticket offices such as Guildford. The only place they can do this is smaller ticket offices on larger stations which have other larger ticket offices who must be impartial... can o' worms!!! Basically it's all in their agreement to operate Guildford office impartially.

 

[Haywain]

Unfortunately this problem is rather wide spread and is completely wrong at impartial ticket offices such as Guildford. The only place they can do this is smaller ticket offices on larger stations which have other larger ticket offices who must be impartial... can o' worms!!! Basically it's all in their agreement to operate Guildford office impartially.

I think that you are talking nonsense. Being a smaller office at a large station with a larger ticket office - for example London Midland at Euston where the main office is operated by Virgin - does not mean that the terms of the TSA can be ignored and that the smaller office can pretend other TOCs don't exist. What doesn't apply to the smaller office is Schedule 17 in terms of opening hours, but requirements to be impartial apply to all (ticket) retailers.

 

[RJ]

I think that you are talking nonsense. Being a smaller office at a large station with a larger ticket office - for example London Midland at Euston where the main office is operated by Virgin - does not mean that the terms of the TSA can be ignored and that the smaller office can pretend other TOCs don't exist. What doesn't apply to the smaller office is Schedule 17 in terms of opening hours, but requirements to be impartial apply to all (ticket) retailers.

What NLC1072 says is correct in some cases. There are partial ticket offices at London Victoria and Glasgow where there are also impartial ticket offices.

Schedule 17 does apply if the ticket office is listed in the document. A few stations with two ticket offices have both of them listed, such as Euston and Liverpool Lime Street. LM's ticket office at Euston is bound by Schedule 17. An example where you are correct is FCC at Blackfriars - Blackfriars North is bound by Schedule 17, whereas Blackfriars South isn't.

 

[Haywain]

But schedule 17 isn't about impartiality, whereas the TSA is, and I believe all ticket offices should meet impartiality obligations. That is a simple matter of fairness to customers who shouldn't be gambling with which office they happen to find themselves at.

 

[CyrusWuff]

But schedule 17 isn't about impartiality, whereas the TSA is, and I believe all ticket offices should meet impartiality obligations. That is a simple matter of fairness to customers who shouldn't be gambling with which office they happen to find themselves at.

Where more than one company has a Ticket Office at a station, only the "Lead" Retailer is required to offer the full range of tickets under the TSA.

So in the case of Euston, the "Suburban" office could decline to sell anything other than London Midland tickets providing suitable signage was in place. In practice, however, I'd imagine they offer the full range.

Similarly, at London Victoria, the Gatwick Express office adjacent to Platforms 13 & 14 only used to sell tickets for the non-stop services between that station and Gatwick. For anything else, you had to go to the main Ticket Office.

 

[Haywain]

That's fine, but impartiality isn't simply about what you sell, but how it is sold.

 

[tony6499]

Why couldn't you book it online and collect at the machine ?

 

[Metrailway]

But schedule 17 isn't about impartiality, whereas the TSA is, and I believe all ticket offices should meet impartiality obligations. That is a simple matter of fairness to customers who shouldn't be gambling with which office they happen to find themselves at.

I don't think that is quite correct. I have an old copy of the ATOC Retail Standards Guide and regarding dedicated ticket offices/windows it states:

A.7.1.1.2 Dedicated
• A Retail Outlet or point of sale that does not sell the products of all TOCs. Generally it will only sell the products of the TOC that operates it although agreement may be reached to sell the products of other specific TOCs.
• Staff working at dedicated points of sale are not required to give customers impartial (see below) information or advice about Rail Products nor to sell on an impartial basis.
• Dedicated points of sale must be signed to make it clear that they are not impartial (see section A.5.2)

 

[VauxhallandI]

It would seem that GA have some difficulty in selling tickets too?

https://twitter.com/vathenauk/status/482863577561579520

 

[RJ]

It would seem that GA have some difficulty in selling tickets too?

https://twitter.com/vathenauk/status/482863577561579520

The reason for this is that they are "too busy" to do them, owing to only having one or two windows open. Apparently it's the same for other local stations, except the larger ones as quoted. This is despite Schedule 17 (page 13) stating there is no restriction on their sale at that station.

Issue identified - I could knock up a few laconic, easy to understand briefs and hand deliver it to all the stations on the Southend line tomorrow...all that would be outstanding is monitoring to ensure the tickets are sold as appropriate. I'd be interested to see how long it takes for Greater Anglia to investigate the problem and communicate to the relevant staff that this is not correct practice. The timescale of some point next week suggests they're not as on the ball as they could be.

 

[VauxhallandI]

The reason for this is that they are "too busy" to do them, owing to only having one or two windows open. Apparently it's the same for other local stations, except the larger ones as quoted. This is despite Schedule 17 (page 13) stating there is no restriction on their sale at that station.

Issue identified - I could knock up a few laconic, easy to understand briefs and hand deliver it to all the stations on the Southend line tomorrow...all that would be outstanding is monitoring to ensure the tickets are sold as appropriate. I'd be interested to see how long it takes for Greater Anglia to investigate the problem and communicate to the relevant staff that this is not correct practice. The timescale of some point next week suggests they're not as on the ball as they could be.

Thanks - I have reverted to them on twitter.

Another example of GA customer service.

 

[RJ]

It's not a valid reason for refusing the sale of Advance tickets - I work at a lot of different stations with two windows, often I'm working solo. I'd never decline to serve someone just because they're after an Advance ticket. A good ticket office clerk can regulate the transaction time at their window. Asking closed questions about date and time of travel speeds things up. Any dithering or uncertainty on the customer's part can be met with a polite request for them to allow others to be served whilst they decide. In 100% of cases at my window, they're fine with this.

Empathising with the position at Wickford, deciding not to do Advance tickets on this basis can only be down to sheer laziness. When people don't pull their weight, it does two things - it inconveniences the customer and it creates workload for somebody else.

There isn't any excuse for this on a line with 3tph and stations with TVMs in addition to the ticket office window - except Schedule 17 restrictions.