Watchdog and Wifi on trains

[infobleep]

GSM-R is a 2G network, there is a piece of work to make GSM-R use packet switching for ETCS as the bandwidth is just not there in 2G. No chance with GSM-R will made available to the travelling public

There are many challenges to what you have said, the main one being that the GSM-R network was installed, against the wishes of many local residents, without planning permission for the masts as it used the railways permitted development rights. My understanding is that to now make the infrastructure available for non-operational railway use would jeopordise the PDR.

Interference from o2 and Vodafone on the 3G side and possibly 4G is having a real affect on the operation of the railways and is costing millions of £ in extra infrastructure and schedule 8 payments to operators when the delays and cancellations happen.

How our the mobile phone companys delaying trains? I never hear an announcement saying this train has been delayed due to interference from X mobile phone company(s) but that doesn't mean it's not happening. If it is, perhaps it needs to be publicised to passengers more.

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[infobleep]

Deleted due to duplicate posting.

 

[jon0844]

How our the mobile phone companys delaying trains? I never hear an announcement saying this train has been delayed due to interference from X mobile phone company(s) but that doesn't mean it's not happening. If it is, perhaps it needs to be publicised to passengers more.

I doubt EE or others will be putting sites on railway property, or certainly not NR towers, anyway.

And even if they did get permission to use the same sites, they'd not use the same equipment or cabinets etc.

 

[68000]

How our the mobile phone companys delaying trains? I never hear an announcement saying this train has been delayed due to interference from X mobile phone company(s) but that doesn't mean it's not happening. If it is, perhaps it needs to be publicised to passengers more.

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The TOC's will not say it is interference. FGW cancelled some peak Friday evening services to the West Country when the interference happened at Paddington station. The interference was intermittent and it happened to align with the peak use by passengers of 3G services, when this happens, the public operators increase the power output of the base stations. It is happening on Greater Anglia at Enfield & Shenfield. Once an interference site is understood, the train operators and Network Rail will put mitigations in place.

This all stems from the sell off by the Government a few years ago of frequencies adjacent to the GSM-R frequencies. Network Rail objected but the Government carried on regardless. It is happening all over Europe as well.

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/bi...ireless-telegraphy/responses/Network_Rail.pdf

http://www.gsmronline.com/documents/pdf/GSMR 34 Bulletin searching networks Final.pdf

http://www.landmobile.co.uk/news/tracking-down-wideband-interference

 

[infobleep]

Thanks for that. Could they work out its interference fairly quickly and if so tell passengers so that the public are aware that the problems are not of the railways making? It's not about trying to pass on blame but educating people that we are not always the source of all your problems.

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[68000]

To be fair, the operators do not necessarily know it is interference as investigations will need to take place and to be frank the general public will just roll their eyes at an announcement that says 'delayed by the wrong type of mobile phone signal'. Just like the idiots to roll their eyes at 'wrong type of leaves'

 

[jon0844]

Leaves are a real problem, but radio interference should be something that can be fixed.

 

[68000]

How do you propose that radio interference be fixed?

 

[jon0844]

I'm not a radio engineer, but I can imagine there being many ways. A simple solution might just be to relocate/reconfigure some sites.

I am quite surprised I've not heard a lot more about this problem though.

3G can operate at 900 and 2100MHz, while 4G can operate at 800, 1800 and 2600MHz. What are the frequencies causing the problem?

 

[68000]

There are ways and each will cost many millions of £. The problem started when the Government released the 900MHz guard frequencies between GSM-R & Public GSM for use for 3G & UMTS.

 

[jon0844]

3G and UMTS is the same thing, but fortunately there's not that much use of 3G on 900.

 

[NSEFAN]

There are ways and each will cost many millions of £. The problem started when the Government released the 900MHz guard frequencies between GSM-R & Public GSM for use for 3G & UMTS.

So the problem is signals on the adjacent bands wiping out the GSM-R ones? If so then surely the only solution is better quality radio filtering on the GSM-R kit? I wonder who's expected to pay for that...

 

[Deerfold]

Those days are over. Personally, I use my own data connection. On Three, I can use 1000GB per month (soft limit) for £15, with tethering. So guess what I use in hotels around the UK?

I was disappointed to see that 3 only allow 2GB of tethering a month on new contracts.

 

[jon0844]

On handset contracts, yes. And from next month some time, it will apply to NEW SIM-only contracts.

So, if you want to have unlimited tethering you need to sign up before the end of the month on SIM-only, which in my opinion is the only way to get a contract these days. Buy the phone you want SIM-free (get it on a credit card if you don't want to pay full whack) and change whenever you want, or keep it for as long as you want (and don't pay over the odds for each month 'out of contract).

Three has sadly got to go with the flow, knowing that unlimited tethering (and that 1000GB limit is only a soft limit, so you could exceed that too) means some people will replace their home or office broadband with it - and it was never designed for that purpose.

Anyone that still has unlimited tethering will keep it unless they change contract or upgrade (so I won't be upgrading ever. I'm paying £15 a month and will keep that contract for as long as I can).

 

[Olaf]

I tend to do a fair bit of travel both for business and pleasure. I've long given up on WiFi services whilst in transit, and instead travel with a 3G Dongle for the lap-top. Can say that I have never used the VT WiFi services.

 

[westv]

I find 3G with O2 can be quite patchy after Peterborough heading north.

 

[jon0844]

3G on O2 is patchy in lots of places. The network (and Vodafone) spent far too many years not investing in 3G and thinking 2G (and EDGE) was fast enough.

It came back to bite both now, but as 4G rolls out - 3G will be expanded too (all sites given 4G will be upgraded to the latest 3G DC-HSDPA spec and a faster backhaul of at least 1Gb instead of 100Mbps or less). O2 HAS to reach a certain percentage in return for paying less for its spectrum, so it has to do it or risk being penalised.

 

[aelius]

I've stopped trying to use WiFi on East Coast. Last straw was when I had to try 3 carriages - first carriage, no power but WiFi; second carriage, no WiFi but power; third carriage WiFi and power but continually dropping of WiFi - never able to get to the sites I needed and total waste of money. Customer Services just gave pointless response with no suggestion that there would be improvements and no refund of the cost. Just no confidence in it. Not worth the hassle.

 

[westv]

I've stopped trying to use WiFi on East Coast. Last straw was when I had to try 3 carriages - first carriage, no power but WiFi; second carriage, no WiFi but power; third carriage WiFi and power but continually dropping of WiFi - never able to get to the sites I needed and total waste of money. Customer Services just gave pointless response with no suggestion that there would be improvements and no refund of the cost. Just no confidence in it. Not worth the hassle.

You actually paid for it?!

 

[infobleep]

3G on O2 is patchy in lots of places. The network (and Vodafone) spent far too many years not investing in 3G and thinking 2G (and EDGE) was fast enough.

It came back to bite both now, but as 4G rolls out - 3G will be expanded too (all sites given 4G will be upgraded to the latest 3G DC-HSDPA spec and a faster backhaul of at least 1Gb instead of 100Mbps or less). O2 HAS to reach a certain percentage in return for paying less for its spectrum, so it has to do it or risk being penalised.

That doesn't surprise me, given O2 don't support the IMAP e-mail protocol, which has been in existence since at least 1988. And to think O2 were once the only official supplier of iPhones in the UK. I am on O2 and when I get signal it's great but that's about it.

 

[paul1609]

3G on O2 is patchy in lots of places. The network (and Vodafone) spent far too many years not investing in 3G and thinking 2G (and EDGE) was fast enough.

It came back to bite both now, but as 4G rolls out - 3G will be expanded too (all sites given 4G will be upgraded to the latest 3G DC-HSDPA spec and a faster backhaul of at least 1Gb instead of 100Mbps or less). O2 HAS to reach a certain percentage in return for paying less for its spectrum, so it has to do it or risk being penalised.

Vodafone in rural Kent is awful, it appears that in addition to the lack of 3G the 2G network is either running out of capacity or that a number of the transmitters are out of action. I've just been trialling a 3 payg sim card and the improvement is incredible on a daily commute to London.

 

[tsr]

Vodafone in rural Kent is awful, it appears that in addition to the lack of 3G the 2G network is either running out of capacity or that a number of the transmitters are out of action. I've just been trialling a 3 payg sim card and the improvement is incredible on a daily commute to London.

With regards to where your profile says you are located (Wittersham), I have found that O2 works OK outside there, but certainly not in a building. So... I'm glad you've found at least one network which does OK in that general area of the country, but I wonder how it copes in the wilds between Tenterden and Rye...

 

[jon0844]

Vodafone in rural Kent is awful, it appears that in addition to the lack of 3G the 2G network is either running out of capacity or that a number of the transmitters are out of action. I've just been trialling a 3 payg sim card and the improvement is incredible on a daily commute to London.

The biggest problem is the slow backhaul on sites now coping with more users wanting data. O2 has less smartphone users (many more feature phone users that probably don't use data anywhere near as much) but has even fewer sites.

So far, EE and Three are miles ahead. In 2016 onwards, O2 and Vodafone should have massively improved though. They have to, as 2G is way too slow for people these days.

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[Mikey C]

I hope the WiFi is working well on East Midlands (1st Class) as I've just realised that I'm travelling back from Nottingham to London at EXACTLY the same time as the World Cup final!

 

[Deerfold]

I hope the WiFi is working well on East Midlands (1st Class) as I've just realised that I'm travelling back from Nottingham to London at EXACTLY the same time as the World Cup final!

Are you planning on looking at a website with your laptop or phone?

I'm fairly sure they don't allow streaming.

 

[Mikey C]

Are you planning on looking at a website with your laptop or phone?

I'm fairly sure they don't allow streaming.

I was wondering about that...

 

[kevjs]

I hope the WiFi is working well on East Midlands (1st Class) as I've just realised that I'm travelling back from Nottingham to London at EXACTLY the same time as the World Cup final!

Wait for a HST and you can use your 4G (assuming EE) - on the Merdians it (Edge, 3G, and 4G) dies somewhere between East Midlands Parkway and Loughbough and only returns for more than a couple of seconds inside the M25 where it's really slow until you leave the train.

Even on the HST 3G was a bit patchy and slow (not been on an HST since switching from T-Mobile 3G to 4GEE though).

I've found all the WiFi hotspots I had in my phone (for various pubs, cafes, and shops) have been deleted since switching to 4G - on 3G they were a godsend as they offered a faster signal (and T-Mobile's 3G round here is poor) but 4G works so much better (on a par with my home EE Fibre Broadband connection) that falling back onto WiFi is a retrograde step. In town I'm often on 0 bars of indicated signal but the 4G signal is still outperforming 3G or the bars Wifi (heck in a lower ground floor hotel room near King's Cross station I was getting faster speeds on 4G than my old ADSL connection could muster - no need for the Hotels £8 a night WiFi - and streamed BBC iPlayer and 4oD perfectly fine )

 

[jon0844]

4G can perform significantly better with a very low signal, which is something that doesn't happen on 3G. I've had 10-15Mbps on what my phone was showing as 0 bars.

Of course it doesn't help that different phones report signal strength in different ways (there's no standard). Obviously an iPhone will show full signal nearly all the time, just in case you might hold it wrong!

 

[paul1609]

With regards to where your profile says you are located (Wittersham), I have found that O2 works OK outside there, but certainly not in a building. So... I'm glad you've found at least one network which does OK in that general area of the country, but I wonder how it copes in the wilds between Tenterden and Rye...

Ive stuck with Vodafone because of sure signal but 3 now do Homesignal (they will give me one for free on day 1 of a contract) and outside their signal is so much better. On the train 3 only drops in the tunnels and for a short time around Paddock wood and Sevenoaks. Vodafone to all intents has no data signal south of Tonbridge.

 

[jon0844]

Three is now trialling 'inTouch', an app which allows you to use just about any Wi-Fi service to make and receive calls and texts in the UK (perhaps one day this will include overseas).

Doesn't launch until August, but anyone with poor signal can request access (and receive a link to the beta app). Android and iOS only at the moment, whereas 3 Home Signal will work with any Three phone (and allow access to a number of phones, albeit ones that are registered for use).