Crossrail replacement of Class 317, 321 and 360 fleets?

[jopsuk]

Say whoever takes on the 360s only wants them as 4 car trains, could one of the intermediate coaches (one with nothing critical line pan well, etc) be removed and added to a Desiro of another TOC?

Technically, yes. But SWT, LM and TPE would not want a micro-fleet of five 5car units. So that won't happen.

 

[Haydn1971]

TPE might be ok with the 360 given it's current fleet of Siemens units - five car TPE between Leeds and Manchester with high capacity seating - sounds great

 

[IanXC]

The only place I can think of which either would require a microfleet of this nature is Northern at Leeds. I seem to recall that Skipton services could be extended to 5 car relatively easily (where Bradford and Ilkley would be much more difficult, if not impossible). This would then free up 5 other 4 car units for use on newly electrified routes in Yorkshire, such as Leeds-York, Leeds-Selby and potentially Hull-York. (Possibly not enough units for all that, but allows Northern's east electric fleet to be expanded without bringing in widely different types).

 

[jopsuk]

it would mean half their fleet would be five car and unable, due to platforms only extended for 8-car, to double up (even to a 9-car formation). It would also mean less power to weight (which isn't an issue on the Connect route!)

 

[JamesRowden]

Heathrow Express want to operate services between Reading and Heathrow:
http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2014/02/heathrow-express-plans-reading-service/

This seems to be plan A for where they intend to deploy their 360s displaced by Crossrail.

 

[Chris125]

I'd be surprised if such a small fleet of 5-car trains was suitable for such a service whoever operates it.

As for where the 360s will end up, Bangkok could be a possibility - they already have a fleet of 3 and 4-car 360 variants and have considered, though not followed through IIRC, with expanding the fleet. This could be just what they're looking for.

Chris

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The only place I can think of which either would require a microfleet of this nature is Northern at Leeds. I seem to recall that Skipton services could be extended to 5 car relatively easily (where Bradford and Ilkley would be much more difficult, if not impossible). This would then free up 5 other 4 car units for use on newly electrified routes in Yorkshire, such as Leeds-York, Leeds-Selby and potentially Hull-York. (Possibly not enough units for all that, but allows Northern's east electric fleet to be expanded without bringing in widely different types).

The main issue with the Airedale/Wharfedale lines is P2 (and to a lesser extent P5) at Shipley- for those unfamiliar with the layout, that's the Northbound Leeds-Skipton (P2) and bi-directional Bradford-Skipton (P5) legs of the triangle, which can't be extended beyond 6x23m without a massive and expensive rebuild. With Ilkley and Bradford the issue is more whether such a long train would be needed outside of a few trips in the peaks.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Will be interesting to see where the 317s & 321s from the current FCC operation end up when Thameslink is fully operational, I had always assumed they would end up on Anglia but it now looks as if they will have a surplus of trains.

And as class 365s are being replaced by newer trains with air conditioning on King's Lynn services, at least some of these are going to be free as well; a swop for class 370s perhaps?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

And as class 365s are being replaced by newer trains with air conditioning on King's Lynn services, at least some of these are going to be free as well; a swop for class 370s perhaps?

Could the 365s be used as replacements for 442s on the Brighton Line and if there is enough units could they also be used on the Gatwick Express trains (they might need some seating replaced with luggage racks for that)?

 

[swt_passenger]

Could the 365s be used as replacements for 442s on the Brighton Line and if there is enough units could they also be used on the Gatwick Express trains (they might need some seating replaced with luggage racks for that)?

Academic point of course because they've already categorically stated that GatEx is getting new stock...

 

[Class377/5]

A huge amount. The 360s only have two cab end windows, so the centre pillar is right in the way of the gangway and these pillars are pretty hefty to meet structural crashworthiness standards. Taking this out and replacing with two pillars positioned to suit a gangway would also involve modifying and probably replacing most of the gubbins in the cab. It might also trigger compliance to the later crashworthiness standards which class 380 etc have to comply with.

So basically it's not going to happen. I think SWT is somewhere in the course of ordering yet more units (the quoted reason for the 455 retractioning is to reduce their depot visits to make room in Wimbledon for more units), so any extra requirements are likely to be lumped in with those rather than messing with microfleets.

The 360/2 orignally had a center gangway when they were 350/0 so its possible. But whether or not that would be allowed with safely rules is a different matter.

 

[fgwrich]

Thinking quite clearly madly for a minute here, but if the 360s were to be transferred to another TOC and lose a vehicle, could the redundant vehicle be rebuilt and refurbished to act as a trailer coach for a 185? Ok so it would only mean that 5 185s could finally gain the long proposed 4th coach but it could help some of TPEs capacity problems?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

OMG was it not bad enough with the 319 London castoffs heading North?Ceasefire over - cue immediate resumption of North-South hostilities!

Actually, that has reminded me of one of the North v South arguments that the North never has any new trains while the South East get's them all. Er, not in my neck of the woods where we should be complaining - TPE got our 170s (which by coincidence could be heading south again!) and 185s, while we got ex TPE 158s and 159s. For fleet standardisation and a good refurbishment to follow obviously!

Anyway, enough of that! Thanks for that HEX link JamesRowden. I wonder how the western chord services will be planned out in the end, what with talk of IEPs, HC and brief mention of a Basingstoke>Reading>Heathrow>Paddington service all utilising the proposed western chord. If HEX do get their proposed services, then it looks like a safe bet that the 360s would be retained for these.

 

[jopsuk]

Again, the "micro fleet" problem would rear its head if you had five out of the 185 fleet extended. There would be potential platform length issues when working in multiple, and the extra coach would be shorter and wider than the rest of the coaches

 

[Surreyman]

And as class 365s are being replaced by newer trains with air conditioning on King's Lynn services, at least some of these are going to be free as well; a swop for class 370s perhaps?

I was under the impression that 365s would be staying on Kinks Lynn?

 

[dosxuk]

And as class 365s are being replaced by newer trains with air conditioning on King's Lynn services, at least some of these are going to be free as well; a swop for class 370s perhaps?

I'm not sure they'll be bringing the APT out of retirement for King's Lynn services...

 

[trainplan1]

I'm not sure they'll be bringing the APT out of retirement for King's Lynn services...

It would also mean the south gets an old cast off train. Which as we know is not physically possible, the south only ever gets gleaming new trains not museum relics....

 

[johnnyp_360]

It would also mean the south gets an old cast off train. Which as we know is not physically possible, the south only ever gets gleaming new trains not museum relics....

I wouldn't mind too much seeing a 155mph train go thru Ely. No matter how old

 

[grumpyoldman01]

I'm not sure they'll be bringing the APT out of retirement for King's Lynn services...

Sorry; should have been 360s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was under the impression that 365s would be staying on Kinks Lynn?

Go to the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise interactive map on the DfT website and click on King's Lynn; the following message should appear:

"More modern air-conditioned trains replace the current units"

Then, if you click on Cambridge a similar message appears in connection with the Cambridge Express service.

This is the only reference I've found to the change.

If you click on Gatwick Express, it does indeed say NEW trains; as the introduction date is the end of 2015, it suggests that Southern will be exercising their option for more Electrostars

 

[59CosG95]

I was under the impression that 365s would be staying on Kinks Lynn?

Careful now...