Crossrail replacement of Class 317, 321 and 360 fleets?

[corfield]

Apologies if this has been done elsewhere but looked and not seen anything definative hence wondering quite what GA will have left post XR takeover of some routes and te new 345s.

I assume the 317s will definately go (those remaining post LO takeover of Lea Valley and new stock), but not sure how the mainline services with 321/360s will be affected.

I'm wondering if there could be some sensible cascading, 321s North? 360s LM or SWT ?

If GA look at new EMUs to replace the 90/Mk3s then presumably they would roll in some of the other types on IC tasks ?

What the UK perhaps needs is a 100mph plus EMU suitable for regional/intercity that isnt quite the full IC performance and spec of IEP.

 

[jopsuk]

Um, Crossrail replaces the 315s. The 317, 321 and 360 fleets, as far as anyone knows, are going nowhere.

 

[Manchester77]

Only the 315s are being displaced by Crossrail. The 317s, 321s and 360s are all deployed across the greater Anglia network.

 

[59CosG95]

Only the 315s are being displaced by Crossrail. The 317s, 321s and 360s are all deployed across the greater Anglia network.

Though the 5 360/2s running Heathrow Connect will almost certainly go to GA. Or maybe additional TPE capacity?

 

[CP165]

Though the 5 360/2s running Heathrow Connect will almost certainly go to GA. Or maybe additional TPE capacity?

The topic of 360 displacement has been discussed quite a few times on the forum, with the general consensus being that they'll go straight to GA (probably after the fifth car is removed).

I personally think that either the whole lot could go to TPE or Northern, or they could transfer to GA as four-car sets with the remaining 5 trailers plugged into 5 of the TPE 350/4s for extra capacity, seeing as they're mechanically identical.

Of course the DfT and the train leasing companies/agreements in particular probably get in the way of this being simple or even happening at all.

 

[The Ham]

I'm wondering if there could be some sensible cascading, 321s North? 360s LM or SWT ?

Even if the 360's were freed up they wouldn't be heading to SWT's as they would require work to make them run on the DC only lines.

 

[Boothby97]

The trouble is that the HC 360/2s are owned outright by BAA/Heathrow Express

 

[swt_passenger]

The trouble is that the HC 360/2s are owned outright by BAA/Heathrow Express

You really think they'll prefer to store them than move them on to someone else? I just don't see it. They are realists, not kids taking their ball home while the game is still on...

 

[Surreyman]

Um, Crossrail replaces the 315s. The 317, 321 and 360 fleets, as far as anyone knows, are going nowhere.

London Overgrounds takeover of the North east London GA suburban network will presumably make the remaining 315s redundant plus maybe a few 317s?

Will be interesting to see where the 317s & 321s from the current FCC operation end up when Thameslink is fully operational, I had always assumed they would end up on Anglia but it now looks as if they will have a surplus of trains.

 

[edwin_m]

Even if the 360's were freed up they wouldn't be heading to SWT's as they would require work to make them run on the DC only lines.

Probably not too much work, as the bogies and electrics are basically the same as the 450. However I doubt SWT would want a small batch of units without end gangways - GE seems much more likely.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Probably not too much work, as the bogies and electrics are basically the same as the 450. However I doubt SWT would want a small batch of units without end gangways - GE seems much more likely.

How much work would be involved in SWT getting gangways installed (probably would need a new cab module). One could be used on the Lymington branch, that wouldn't necessarily need a gangway

 

[badassunicorn]

I reckon 350's and 321's will stay on the GE, don't think there is any plans to replace them. 317's will still be used on the WA, either by LO in the short term or GA for mainline work.

 

[IanXC]

I don't know the demand patterns on AGA really, but would there be any case for a mixed fleet of 3, 4 and 5 car units?

 

[edwin_m]

How much work would be involved in SWT getting gangways installed (probably would need a new cab module). One could be used on the Lymington branch, that wouldn't necessarily need a gangway

A huge amount. The 360s only have two cab end windows, so the centre pillar is right in the way of the gangway and these pillars are pretty hefty to meet structural crashworthiness standards. Taking this out and replacing with two pillars positioned to suit a gangway would also involve modifying and probably replacing most of the gubbins in the cab. It might also trigger compliance to the later crashworthiness standards which class 380 etc have to comply with.

So basically it's not going to happen. I think SWT is somewhere in the course of ordering yet more units (the quoted reason for the 455 retractioning is to reduce their depot visits to make room in Wimbledon for more units), so any extra requirements are likely to be lumped in with those rather than messing with microfleets.

 

[Class 170101]

GA is a 4, 8 and 12 car railway mixed fleets of 3, 4 and 5 car trains will not be helpful.

In respect of the 315s these I understood to have a future in the Welsh Valleys but you could see 317s staying with West Anglia to strengthen services there with additional ones coming from FCC and the ones heading to LOROL returning back to GA to strengthen additional West Anglia services to 12 carriages.

321s may have a future either on Greater Anglia to provide additional services to GEML destinations or perhaps on LM or maybe even Northern alongside their 321/9 and 322 cousins. This may be where the Heathrow Connect Class 360s come in to operate with the 360s already on GE to allow 321s to head north.

 

[306024]

GA is a 4, 8 and 12 car railway mixed fleets of 3, 4 and 5 car trains will not be helpful......

True, let's keep it simple, none of those Southern practices over here thanks.

 

[Wivenswold]

GA have been having serious problems with train faults of late and it's rumoured that they have few spare units, so transferring the Heathrow trains would make sense even if they are reduced to 4 car units. It could coincide with the refurbishment of the existing 360's too.

 

[Pugwash]

The 360's from Heathrow Express, would make lovely replacements of some of the Norwich 90's + mk3's. Maybe make them into permenant 10 car trains with just a cab either end ?

As much loved as the 90's + mk3's are loved here on the Forum - they are becoming increasingly tatty and unreliable.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 360's from Heathrow Express, would make lovely replacements of some of the Norwich 90's + mk3's. Maybe make them into permenant 10 car trains with just a cab either end ?

You know there are only 5 of them? So that gives you two ten car trains. Is that a realistically usable micro fleet?

 

[Pugwash]

You know there are only 5 of them? So that gives you two ten car trains. Is that a realistically usable micro fleet?

Given that they have to use the 321's on some Norwich services - they might just well be a solution.

It could form part of a follow on order to replace the 90's. without doing the maths, I would imagine they would provide a lot more seats.

 

[hassaanhc]

As things stand the five 360/2 Heathrow units (one in Heathrow Express colours and moquette with 2+2 seating while others are 3+2 seated) are standard class only. Therefore they'd only be usable on standard-only services unless you go round adding First to them.

 

[Pugwash]

As things stand the five 360/2 Heathrow units (one in Heathrow Express colours and moquette with 2+2 seating while others are 3+2 seated) are standard class only. Therefore they'd only be usable on standard-only services unless you go round adding First to them.

GA's Class 321 First Class is 2+2 in any case. They may decide a class seperator and head rest covers on the seats would suffice. At least these units would have Air Con.

 

[jopsuk]

the Connect 360s will not be used in 10 car (either 5+5 or fixed) formation on Norwich trains. I'm confident of that.

They may go to the Great Eastern. if they do, I predict the following:
Step 1: They got bought by Angel Trains
Step 2: They lose a carriage, the centre carriages are stripped for parts and most of the body shells scrapped- one may be kept as a spare. Maybe.
Step 3: As the GE fleet will probably be in need of refurbishment anyway, the ex-Connect fleet will refurbished to the same standard, with as close as possible the same 1st class seating. It may even be that the GE fleet get new seats, in which case they will be made identical.
Step 4: the ex-Connect units get incorporated into the GE fleet. Potentially they even get renumbered as 360/1s, leaving very little trace of their former life.

 

[Class 170101]

NR need to get the power sorted. 360s banned north of Ipswich again apparently due to power supply issues.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

Only the 315s are being displaced by Crossrail. The 317s, 321s and 360s are all deployed across the greater Anglia network.

Don't forget LOROL arrive next year too. They're having a handful of 315's and 317's. There are rumours as to what they're having, but I'm hearing different things so we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Say whoever takes on the 360s only wants them as 4 car trains, could one of the intermediate coaches (one with nothing critical line pan well, etc) be removed and added to a Desiro of another TOC?

 

[jopsuk]

well there's a pre-notoifcation of a tender for a fleet of four-car EMUs for the LOROL Lee Valley, GOBLIN and Romford-Upminster shuttle so there's a fair bit of certainty- just need the actual procurement now! Though I guess the interim is exactly what they get of the GA fleet.

 

[Emblematic]

Say whoever takes on the 360s only wants them as 4 car trains, could one of the intermediate coaches (one with nothing critical line pan well, etc) be removed and added to a Desiro of another TOC?

Sounds straightforward compared to the 458/460 reformation. Even if not needed for any current units, they could potentially be inserted in future Desiro sets if short ordered - a class 455 for the 21st century

 

[corfield]

Thanks for the correction on these fleets. I was very confused with what exactly is going over to what !

Logically the FCC Class 321s could augment GA, ex Heathrow Class 360s could (minus a coach) go to GA or to LM to replace its 321s and perhaps be dedicated to what 350s currently do off the WCML ?

At the risk of dragging the thread off - why not try to keep the Class 319s in the South as with their DV capability they are ideal to support DC-AC changeover ? The 315 & 317 fleets could go to Wales/North until replaced by new in 5-10 years time ? (321s would also make sense to send North at some point, especially if GA gets new EMUs for its Class 90 & Mk3s which could be a large program ?).

 

[Emblematic]

At the risk of dragging the thread off - why not try to keep the Class 319s in the South as with their DV capability they are ideal to support DC-AC changeover ? The 315 & 317 fleets could go to Wales/North until replaced by new in 5-10 years time ?

OMG was it not bad enough with the 319 London castoffs heading North?Ceasefire over - cue immediate resumption of North-South hostilities!