UK Taxation & Bus Passes

[cjp]

Prompted by the Bad news for Pensioners, Commuters etc in South Yorkshire thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1694785#post1694785 which seems by some to be going the way of "Tough -pensioners do not deserve their country-wide bus passes" I thought I would point you at this Quiz on the Guardian's website which is about how much tax rich pay compared to poorer British residents. http://www.theguardian.com/money/quiz/2014/jun/16/tax-richest-poorest-average-quiz

Perhaps a means tested "poor persons' bus pass" would be the next challenge for penny pinching politicians and the bus companies to grasp?

Personally I think free travel ought to be replaced with a flat 10p or 20p fare.

Of course once such a flat fare is established it would then be too easy for politicians to up it to 50p or whatever takes their fancy from their lofty pay, perks and expenses ivory tower.:roll:
But I believe that things that do have a cost are often better appreciated than things that have no cost.

Oh if you are are going to try the quiz do not read the small print below

Nearly seven in ten people – 68% – of the 1,036 adults polled by The Equality Trust and Ipsos MORI, dramatically underestimate what the poorest pay in tax and wrongly believe the richest face the biggest tax burden.

In reality, households in the lowest 10% income group pay 43% of their income in tax, while average households and those in the highest 10% both pay just 35% – 8 percentage points less than those in the lowest 10%. Since 1986, the bottom 10% of households have paid a greater proportion of their income in tax than the middle and the top 10%.

People's inaccurate understanding of the tax system can be attributed to people's tendency to disproportionately focus on income tax, finds the report from the Equality Trust. Yet income tax constitutes only a small portion of the tax the bottom 10% pay.

The largest tax that affects households in the bottom 10% is VAT. The bottom 10% of households pay 11.6% of their total income in VAT, almost double the proportion of the average household and almost three times that paid by the top 10%.

Council tax affects the bottom 10% substantially more than the top 10%. These households pay over twice as much of their income in council tax as the average household and more than four times as much as the top 10%.

 

[DownSouth]

A small fare instead of a free pass would be worth considering, paying your way (or at least contributing part of it) is virtuous and encourages people to attribute value to the service.

 

[Bill Stanier]

A small fare instead of a free pass would be worth considering, paying your way (or at least contributing part of it) is virtuous and encourages people to attribute value to the service.

But as the OP pointed out, a small fare would become the true full fare before very long. Re arrange the following into a well known phrase or saying:

Wedge the end thin the of.

 

[steamybrian]

You still need a pass to identify who is over 60 and qualifies for a Senior Citizen fare.
I suggest paying one flat admin charge of say £5 and still give Senior Citizens unlimited complimentary travel with it
Yes- I am 60 and have a "free" bus pass.
Yes- I am quiet willing to pay £5 for it because I would easily cover the cost in a couple of bus journeys.(or little change for a single journey on the London Underground !)

 

[Bill Stanier]

You still need a pass to identify who is over 60 and qualifies for a Senior Citizen fare.
I suggest paying one flat admin charge of say £5 and still give Senior Citizens unlimited complimentary travel with it
Yes- I am 60 and have a "free" bus pass.
Yes- I am quiet willing to pay £5 for it because I would easily cover the cost in a couple of bus journeys.(or little change for a single journey on the London Underground !)

A £5 charge? Why? Why not £10? Or £0.50p? Or leave it as it is? What's the logical thinking process that specifically leads to a £5 charge?

 

[steamybrian]

A £5 charge? Why? Why not £10? Or £0.50p? Or leave it as it is? What's the logical thinking process that specifically leads to a £5 charge?

Administration cost of issuing them.
I just quoted a figure of £5 but I would pay £10.

In London the "Freedom Pass" is issued FREE to all Senior Citizens giving them FREE travel on all buses, tube, trams in the whole of the Greater London area.

My Senior Citizens bus pass issued by Kent County Council is valid five years so even £10 for five years complimentary bus travel is good value...

 

[Bill Stanier]

Administration cost of issuing them.
I just quoted a figure of £5 but I would pay £10.

In London the "Freedom Pass" is issued FREE to all Senior Citizens giving them FREE travel on all buses, tube, trams in the whole of the Greater London area.

My Senior Citizens bus pass issued by Kent County Council is valid five years so even £10 for five years complimentary bus travel is good value...

£10 may or may not be 'good value' (what is 'good value' in this context anyway?). But anyway, it's a meaningless figure.

Any proposal to change the senior bus pass must have a demonstrable logic. 'To cover issue costs' doesn't cut it. How do we know what true issue costs are? Could it be issued more efficiently? And what's the logic of basing a charge on issue costs anyway? Would it cost more to collect the £10 than you'd reap in revenue (my guess, knowing local authorities, is a resounding YES!). Why not base any charge on implementation costs, for instance?

Leave it as it is or abolish it. Anything else would probably cost more than leaving it alone!

 

[fowler9]

£10 may or may not be 'good value' (what is 'good value' in this context anyway?). But anyway, it's a meaningless figure.

Any proposal to change the senior bus pass must have a demonstrable logic. 'To cover issue costs' doesn't cut it. How do we know what true issue costs are? Could it be issued more efficiently? And what's the logic of basing a charge on issue costs anyway? Would it cost more to collect the £10 than you'd reap in revenue (my guess, knowing local authorities, is a resounding YES!). Why not base any charge on implementation costs, for instance?

Leave it as it is or abolish it. Anything else would probably cost more than leaving it alone!

I was informed a few years back that each standard letter I sent out cost the company I worked for £50. I doubt £5 will cover the admin for a senior citizens pass. Free or just get rid of them.I would prefer free.

 

[Bill Stanier]

I was informed a few years back that each standard letter I sent out cost the company I worked for £50. I doubt £5 will cover the admin for a senior citizens pass. Free or just get rid of them.I would prefer free.

Exactly. Anything else would cost more than leaving them free.

 

[fowler9]

Exactly. Anything else would cost more than leaving them free.

Totally agree.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

As a percentage of gross income, richer people pay less than poorer people. VAT for instance, given that it's charged on "luxury items" like home fuel and female sanitary products, disproportionately affects poor people. Even council tax rates place comparatively more of the burden on poorer people, as the highest council tax bands don't reflect just how much more wealthy the people in these houses are. In my borough, Dacorum, the highest band is less than three times higher than the lowest band.

There's a lot of indirect taxation in this country. Indirect taxation affects poor people far more than richer people. It always has.

But in pounds and pence, rich people pay far more than poor people do. The top 1% of earners in the UK paid almost 27% of all the income tax revenue in 2010/11.

It depends how you want to define as "paying more tax".

 

[cjp]

I was informed a few years back that each standard letter I sent out cost the company I worked for £50.

What sort of company is that - prettty inefficient or with whopping pay?
Either way I can help them
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
....
But in pounds and pence, rich people pay far more than poor people do. The top 1% of earners in the UK paid almost 27% of all the income tax revenue in 2010/11.

It depends how you want to define as "paying more tax".

Dear Mr Troll
The article you references is two years old. It referred to figures from a year older (three years old).
It said within the article that "all these figures, published a year ago, were estimates by HMRC and We will not know the facts until the Revenue has carried out its calculations. "
Selective quoting can be deceiving.
Few are truly objective as we are all tempered and influenced, for good or bad, by our experiences.
Yours etc

 

[Tetchytyke]

The article you references is two years old. It referred to figures from a year older (three years old).

Yep, I said which financial year it referred to.

Do you think much has changed?

As a proportion of income poor people pay more. As an actual figure rich people pay more. Which definition of "paying more" you choose depends on your political persuasion. The Guardian choose the first definition, The Telegraph choose the second. It's always been the way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was informed a few years back that each standard letter I sent out cost the company I worked for £50.

It wasn't a bank was it? They tried to claim that £50 for sending out an overdraft letter was a legitimate administration fee, until the Financial Ombudsman Service told them to prove it. They didn't, so renamed it as a an "overdraft charge" instead.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But as the OP pointed out, a small fare would become the true full fare before very long. Re arrange the following into a well known phrase or saying:

Wedge the end thin the of.

Though exterior to where we reside, my wife has friends in the TfGM area who say that the fare paid outside the validity period of their ENCTS passes was increased incrementally as follows over a short period of time:-

40p....50p....70p....FULL FARE.

 

[blackfive460]

The simple solution is free travel in local areas, half fare elsewhere.
That provides essential travel for those who need it and is a perk when you go elsewhere.

Don't worry though, nothing will change much for a few years, we've an election coming!

 

[Bill Stanier]

Don't worry though, nothing will change much for a few years, we've an election coming!

Err, general election is less than 11 months away! If the next gov is wanting to change it, it'll do it early in its term rather than later. Get the nasty stuff over with time for the electorate to forget before the election comes around again 5 years hence.

 

[Butts]

You still need a pass to identify who is over 60 and qualifies for a Senior Citizen fare.
I suggest paying one flat admin charge of say £5 and still give Senior Citizens unlimited complimentary travel with it
Yes- I am 60 and have a "free" bus pass.
Yes- I am quiet willing to pay £5 for it because I would easily cover the cost in a couple of bus journeys.(or little change for a single journey on the London Underground !)

As the Pension Age is 65 + should this not be changed.

I know people who go to work using their bus pass or railcard which seems a bit crazy.

 

[Bill Stanier]

As the Pension Age is 65 + should this not be changed.

I know people who go to work using their bus pass or railcard which seems a bit crazy.

If bus pass they must start late - they don't get free travel until after 09:30. Senior railcards cost the taxpayer nowt - that's a scheme run entirely by the railways to encourage uptake of off-peak capacity among the retired, who have to pay up front for the cards (about £27 pa IIRC).

 

[Butts]

If bus pass they must start late - they don't get free travel until after 09:30. Senior railcards cost the taxpayer nowt - that's a scheme run entirely by the railways to encourage uptake of off-peak capacity among the retired, who have to pay up front for the cards (about £27 pa IIRC).

In Scotland they can travel at anytime including during the rush hour. Another interesting thing I came across, In England the age for qualification is actually being gradually raised to 65.

Whilst in Scotland,Wales and Nothern Ireland...yes you guessed it....it is NOT

 

[edwin_m]

While on the subject of UK taxation and bus passes, am I the only one that thinks it's ridiculous that people can salary sacrifice to avoid paying income tax on their spending on car park season tickets, but not on bus or train season tickets?

 

[Bill Stanier]

In Scotland they can travel at anytime including during the rush hour. Another interesting thing I came across, In England the age for qualification is actually being gradually raised to 65.

Whilst in Scotland,Wales and Nothern Ireland...yes you guessed it....it is NOT

You'd better pray you don't get independence next year. All that will change if you do, and economic reality hits north of the border. No more free higher education either or all that other free stuff you Scots presently enjoy!

 

[Butts]

You'd better pray you don't get independence next year. All that will change if you do, and economic reality hits north of the border. No more free higher education either or all that other free stuff you Scots presently enjoy!

I wouldn't be so sure The Welsh are still getting a better deal with regard to Bus Passes and Higher Education Fees amongst other things

 

[Bill Stanier]

I wouldn't be so sure The Welsh are still getting a better deal with regard to Bus Passes and Higher Education Fees amongst other things

Yes, but they are still financially dependent on rest of UK. If they declared complete independence I suspect life would be much harder for them than for an independent Scotland.

When we were in Ayr recently on a rail special we came across Scottish independence promoters in the street, and eagerly sought their 'YES' badges to wear!

 

[Butts]

Yes, but they are still financially dependent on rest of UK. If they declared complete independence I suspect life would be much harder for them than for an independent Scotland.

When we were in Ayr recently on a rail special we came across Scottish independence promoters in the street, and eagerly sought their 'YES' badges to wear!

The real question is why The English put up with being treated as "second class citizens " in a UK where they make up the vast majority of the population

 

[Bill Stanier]

The real question is why The English put up with being treated as "second class citizens " in a UK where they make up the vast majority of the population

Very good question! I think a few are asking that!

 

[radamfi]

Obviously there is freedom of movement within the UK, never mind the EU, so people in England are free to move to Scotland. That would seem to be a good option for pensioners in southern England who own their own house, given the difference in house prices and the various free benefits in Scotland. But for working people, despite everything, you are still likely to be better off in England.

 

[bussnapperwm]

While on the subject of UK taxation and bus passes, am I the only one that thinks it's ridiculous that people can salary sacrifice to avoid paying income tax on their spending on car park season tickets, but not on bus or train season tickets?

Where I work we can, but there again it's Centro land where my office is based.

 

[Bill Stanier]

Obviously there is freedom of movement within the UK, never mind the EU, so people in England are free to move to Scotland. That would seem to be a good option for pensioners in southern England who own their own house, given the difference in house prices and free prescriptions etc in Scotland. But for working people, despite everything, you are still likely to be better off in England.

Err, have you ever been to Scotland? It's wet, it's cold, and it's dark most of the time! They even force bi-annual moving of the clocks on the rest of UK to try to eek out their meager daylight!

Us oldies like a bit of sunshine, and some warmth in our old bones!

 

[radamfi]

According to Wikipedia:

Inverness: January average high 6.9 degrees Celsius. Annual rainfall 732.8 mm
Brighton: January average high 8 degrees Celsius. Annual rainfall 851 mm.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If bus pass they must start late - they don't get free travel until after 09:30. Senior railcards cost the taxpayer nowt - that's a scheme run entirely by the railways to encourage uptake of off-peak capacity among the retired, who have to pay up front for the cards (about £27 pa IIRC).

Actually, it now costs £30 for an annual Senior Citizen Railcard.