Who decides which lines and services should have first class carriages and loos?

[infobleep]

How do they decide which services and/or lines should have first class carriages and which ones shouldn't? Also how do they decide which lines and services should have toilets?

The Cobham line from Guildford to Waterloo normally has trains without loos or first class. However given the cost of the property in the villages along that line, I would have thought there would be people queuing to pay for first class travel. That would bring in extra revenue for South West Trains, were first class carriages to exist.

Clearly it might only be during peak rush hour, given the more restricted times at which the ticket offices and station loos are open. However peak time is the period when far more people travel and surely rail companies would get more first class passengers, especially in affluent areas, if the service was provided.

There has to be a good reason why it isn't though.

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[MidnightFlyer]

Unless I'm also mistaken there's no First on the Aylesbury / Met line on Chiltern too - I would have thought there would be plenty of people in that area willing to pay for it (ditto places like Beaconsfield and Gerrards Cross on the Mainline). I believe Chiltern actually scrapped First a long time ago however?

 

[yorksrob]

Depends on whatever the people running the trains think at the time.

Guildford via Effingham Junction's been without loos and 1st since the days of SUB's and EPB's at least, whereas as MattE2010 mentions, Chiltern got rid of theirs to Aylesbury more recently. Roughly based on distance.

The Marshlink had first class and loos until the early 90's, then these were removed when its dedicated fleet of Oxted units lost their middle carriage as a cost saving measure. It then got the loos back when they regained a centre CEP carriage for the direct Brighton service a bit later on and finally got first back as well in 2004/5 when the new trains came in.

 

[Bald Rick]

Generally, specified by DfT in the franchise. It just doesn't make sense on high density, metro style commuter operations. You could argue that there is a case for first class on the northern line through Hampstead, Golders green, Highgate, Totteridge etc.

I'm rather surprised 1st is specified on the new Thameslink trains, although there is a suggestion that was done to keep the right side of the Brighton commuters.

 

[tsr]

I'm rather surprised 1st is specified on the new Thameslink trains, although there is a suggestion that was done to keep the right side of the Brighton commuters.

At least First Class (bar the frankly dreadful seats they've put in there) will be noticeably better-equipped than Standard on the 700s - tables, armrests and plug sockets versus none of those elsewhere on the train, and also a door which will at least close properly, albeit doing little for noise insulation purposes due to the big gap around the frame. I am not commenting on whether it is acceptable to leave Standard Class without any of those fittings, bar the door (that debate can go elsewhere on the forum), but the difference in facilities might just appease a few of the Brighton commuters - at least until they sit down!

 

[Class172]

I've always thought my local line would be able to sustain a first class service, as it serves a fair number of affluent areas. However, as yorksrob mentioned, it is probably most strongly influenced by the TOC operating the services and what stock they have. For example in my situation, LM do not have any DMUs with first class, so hence it is no offered.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Unless I'm also mistaken there's no First on the Aylesbury / Met line on Chiltern too - I would have thought there would be plenty of people in that area willing to pay for it (ditto places like Beaconsfield and Gerrards Cross on the Mainline). I believe Chiltern actually scrapped First a long time ago however?

It was scrapped to mild complaints on class 165s about ten years ago, it has never existed on class 168s or class 172s.

The silver sets have a "business zone" which is a nicely refurbished Mk3 first class coach you can upgrade a standard ticket on, not unlike the Weekend First system on other ToCs.

 

[GatwickDepress]

The Marshlink had first class and loos until the early 90's, then these were removed when its dedicated fleet of Oxted units lost their middle carriage as a cost saving measure. It then got the loos back when they regained a centre CEP carriage for the direct Brighton service a bit later on and finally got first back as well in 2004/5 when the new trains came in.

Then the first class on the Turbostars was declassified early 2011 due to severe overcrowding. Something that wouldn't have happened if an option for a middle carriage was on the cards when the service was extended to Brighton again.

If you purchase a first class ticket from Lewes to Brighton and take the direct route, only the hourly Ore - Brighton services are marked as having first class.
So for the best value, you wait as the Turbostars growl past, then the Seaford services, and the hourly Lewes shuttle...

 

[Hyphen]

All this talk of declassifying... but then you get the direct opposite on routes like Nottingham-Cardiff and Birmingham-Leicester-Stansted Airport.

These routes had no first class in CT days*, but as they were moved over to XC they had an end area (on the Turbostars) refreshed and upgraded to allow XC to sell very expensive first class tickets. And although I can't speak for the Stansted run, it's incredibly rare to see anyone in first on the Nottm-Cardiff - I've seen maybe 3 or 4 people total in there, over 7 years of regularly travelling on that service.

* Again can't speak for Stansteds, but when CT received the ex-MML 170 stock, they kept the very luxurious first class seating in the centre coach, without ever operating a first class service. Somehow I never managed to feel guilty about seeing people crowd into vestibules at New St whilst I sat there with half a carriage empty around me...


EDIT clarifying my 'very expensive' claim:
Off-Peak Return, Cardiff-Nottingham, Standard Class: £70.50.
Off-Peak Return, Cardiff-Nottingham, First Class: £176.90.
Difference: £106.40. And all you get for that is a wider chair and a cup of coffee.
The difference between the equivalent Anytime return fares is £144.00. For that same wider chair and the same cup of coffee.

 

[Tio Terry]

Some of the reasoning behind the provision of First Class facilities revolves around the ability of on-board staff to police usage. On a packed surbaban service - like Waterloo-Epsom-Guildford - it's just not possible to make your way through the train to check that only 1st class ticket holders sit in First Class seats. If you dont police it you get complaints from 1st class ticket holders. It's a matter of practicability.

 

[infobleep]

Generally, specified by DfT in the franchise. It just doesn't make sense on high density, metro style commuter operations. You could argue that there is a case for first class on the northern line through Hampstead, Golders green, Highgate, Totteridge etc.

I'm rather surprised 1st is specified on the new Thameslink trains, although there is a suggestion that was done to keep the right side of the Brighton commuters.

However there is first class on services between Waterloo and Portsmouth and some of these are standing room only even with 12 carriages attached. Again some of the Southern mainline services are standing room only with first class attached.

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[infobleep]

Some of the reasoning behind the provision of First Class facilities revolves around the ability of on-board staff to police usage. On a packed surbaban service - like Waterloo-Epsom-Guildford - it's just not possible to make your way through the train to check that only 1st class ticket holders sit in First Class seats. If you dont police it you get complaints from 1st class ticket holders. It's a matter of practicability.

By the same token therefore it is also not possible to police first class between Waterloo and Woking/Guildford/Surbiton and any other mainline station offering first class on fast services out of Waterloo, where they are one of the first stops after leaving Waterloo during the evening peak.

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[LBSCR Times]

Considering the space allocated on a 377 to First Class ( the same number of seats as it would have been if it was Standard Class), and the extra revenue obtained, then no wonder there is still First Class on many commuter routes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm rather surprised 1st is specified on the new Thameslink trains, although there is a suggestion that was done to keep the right side of the Brighton commuters.

Try getting a First Class seat at Gatwick Airport on a northbound peak service, whether it is either Southern or FCC. It is not surprising there is a reluctance to abolish it south of the Thames!

 

[Qwerty133]

All this talk of declassifying... but then you get the direct opposite on routes like Nottingham-Cardiff and Birmingham-Leicester-Stansted Airport.

These routes had no first class in CT days*, but as they were moved over to XC they had an end area (on the Turbostars) refreshed and upgraded to allow XC to sell very expensive first class tickets. And although I can't speak for the Stansted run, it's incredibly rare to see anyone in first on the Nottm-Cardiff - I've seen maybe 3 or 4 people total in there, over 7 years of regularly travelling on that service.

* Again can't speak for Stansteds, but when CT received the ex-MML 170 stock, they kept the very luxurious first class seating in the centre coach, without ever operating a first class service. Somehow I never managed to feel guilty about seeing people crowd into vestibules at New St whilst I sat there with half a carriage empty around me...


EDIT clarifying my 'very expensive' claim:
Off-Peak Return, Cardiff-Nottingham, Standard Class: £70.50.
Off-Peak Return, Cardiff-Nottingham, First Class: £176.90.
Difference: £106.40. And all you get for that is a wider chair and a cup of coffee.
The difference between the equivalent Anytime return fares is £144.00. For that same wider chair and the same cup of coffee.

I see people in there pretty often...
however nearly all of them are in the same uniform.
I believe that plug sockets are fitted in first class, not that I've ever felt the need to pay treble and check!

 

[yorksrob]

Then the first class on the Turbostars was declassified early 2011 due to severe overcrowding. Something that wouldn't have happened if an option for a middle carriage was on the cards when the service was extended to Brighton again.

If you purchase a first class ticket from Lewes to Brighton and take the direct route, only the hourly Ore - Brighton services are marked as having first class.
So for the best value, you wait as the Turbostars growl past, then the Seaford services, and the hourly Lewes shuttle...

Ah, thanks for the update. I'd seen the compartment at the front of the new units, but hadn't realised it had been "deactivated".

 

[LBSCR Times]

Ah, thanks for the update. I'd seen the compartment at the front of the new units, but hadn't realised it had been "deactivated".

However, there is nothing in the units to say, as the First Class is still used when working Uckfield services, so the casual traveller will not necessarily know.

 

[infobleep]

Which I guess is why one should always read the timetable in advance if traveling.

Actually they often put on services where first class is located. How about a message stating as first class does not exist on this service passengers may use the first class carriage. They could probably word it better than that.


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[Sod]

Depends on whatever the people running the trains think at the time.

Guildford via Effingham Junction's been without loos and 1st since the days of SUB's and EPB's at least, whereas as MattE2010 mentions, Chiltern got rid of theirs to Aylesbury more recently. Roughly based on distance.

The Marshlink had first class and loos until the early 90's, then these were removed when its dedicated fleet of Oxted units lost their middle carriage as a cost saving measure. It then got the loos back when they regained a centre CEP carriage for the direct Brighton service a bit later on and finally got first back as well in 2004/5 when the new trains came in.

The New Guildford Line (via Cobham) featured 4 VEPs with First Class facilities for several years, I think in the late 70s or early 80s. I commuted daily between Claygate and London Road Guildford between 1966 and 1974, and it was a solid diet of 4 EPBs and 4 SUBs, leavened only by the occasional appearance of a 2 BIL / 2HAL combo when there was something unusual going on such as strike action or dramatic weather. The Carriage Sheds at Effingham Junction never contained anything other than SUBs or EPBs; while I grew bored with them at the time, they seem to have so much character through the rose-tinted spectacles of retrospect.

 

[Kite159]

Which I guess is why one should always read the timetable in advance if traveling.

Actually they often put on services where first class is located. How about a message stating as first class does not exist on this service passengers may use the first class carriage. They could probably word it better than that.


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Last year when I was on the Southern service from Croydon to Milton Keynes, there was announcements that there is "no 1st class within the metro area" or something along those lines.

 

[30907]

First class was withdrawn in 1941 (IIRC) from services operating wholly within the LPTB area as a wartime measure. It couldn't be policed (with almost 100% non-corridor stock) and it was underused (a real issue with increasingly crowded trains and stock shortages).

The GC line out of Marylebone had first class restored on dieselisation, even though most of its trains were in-area, presumably because only one type of unit was provided (and Metroland would have provided a market).

(The GW was, of course, different - all ordinary suburban trains carried first class, but auto trains had always been third class only and the single units (bubble cars) carried this on.)

The Cobham line was caught by this, because it had always been worked by suburban stock - whereas Guildford via Woking stoppers were part of the Portsmouth Direct service.

I can't remember whether first was advertised on the Cobham line in the years when there were EPB+VEP combinations, but there were isolated other regular workings with within the suburban area - I recall a Victoria or Holborn-Orpington which was EPB+CEP for a while, and certain commuting schoolboys took advantage of the legal luxury of first class. (OT - my home station of Shortlands also had one advertised first-class train at 8.32 to Holborn and one first-class season-ticket holder)

 

[infobleep]

Fascinating replies. Interestingly there is about 2 first class trains a day from Byfleet and Newhaw. 8.02 stopping service from Woking also has first class but it doesn't stop at Byfleet and Newhaw. It does stop at other stations which off peak have faster services into London.

As for the South Croydon to Milton Keynes, I find it odd that a service to Milton Keynes has first class declassified. I'm fairly certain it's a long the whole route but I may be wrong.

The first class offered by Southern isn't in my opinion as good as South West Trains although their Gatwick Express might be.

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[181]

The New Guildford Line (via Cobham) featured 4 VEPs with First Class facilities for several years, I think in the late 70s or early 80s.

Definitely early 80s, probably late 70s as well. The route was taken over by 455s some time when they were fairly new (1984-ish?). I remember an item in the diary column of the 'Times' about the lack of toilets. I hadn't been aware of it being run by inner-suburban stock before that, my earliest journeys on it that I can remember being in the latter part of the 70s, but as an occasional user who was quite young at the time I can't be certain.

 

[Hyphen]

I see people in there pretty often...
however nearly all of them are in the same uniform.

Well yes - I didn't include staff

I believe that plug sockets are fitted in first class, not that I've ever felt the need to pay treble and check!

They do.

I did once get upgraded to First on that service FOC, after the Turbostar decided it was going to fail to keep water out of the passenger area - a load of rain dripped right onto my laptop. No damage done (it wasn't that much water) but I did get to charge the laptop for the rest of the journey

 

[Tio Terry]

Last year when I was on the Southern service from Croydon to Milton Keynes, there was announcements that there is "no 1st class within the metro area" or something along those lines.

I use the Clapham Junction to MK service - and return - several times a month. The on-train announcements now clearly state that passengers in First Class must be in possession of a First Class ticket - although I've never seen anyone do a ticket inspection!

 

[Kite159]

I use the Clapham Junction to MK service - and return - several times a month. The on-train announcements now clearly state that passengers in First Class must be in possession of a First Class ticket - although I've never seen anyone do a ticket inspection!

Maybe it's only Croydon to Clapham where IIRC it's an all station stopper which is standard class only, with 'first' class coming back into force after the junction.
----
One service which should have it's first class area declassified is the Salisbury to Romsey via Southampton loop, 25% of the 2-car set is given up for 1st class, and it's not like it's a long journey

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Some first class services are more first class than others. To me, first class means three seats across and waitresses/waiters serving you complementary drinks at your seats.

But to many TOCs, particularly in the south, first class simply means four seats across in carriages which are no more spacious or comfortable than standard and no free food or drink whatsoever. All you are paying for is a better chance of a seat and not having to mix with the hoi polloi. In fairness, the price differential with these TOCs is not as great.

Turning to toilets, their provision or lack of it is the one downside to the otherwise excellent Merseyrail Electrics. There are no toilets on the trains and very few at stations.

 

[GatwickDepress]

The Milton Keynes Central - South Croydon services seem a little weird, since "Any Permitted" ticket holders aside, I don't think any first class fares exist via Kensington Olympia?

Which I guess is why one should always read the timetable in advance if traveling.

Actually they often put on services where first class is located. How about a message stating as first class does not exist on this service passengers may use the first class carriage. They could probably word it better than that.


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Southern has a CIS announcement that goes roughly like: "This is a Southern Metro service. Standard class ticket holders may sit in any part of the train, including areas marked as first class accommodation."

 

[infobleep]

It does seem odd that it's a metro service beyond Shepberds Bush as it misses out loads of stations and has a similar but not identical stopping pattern to London Midland's Tring services and they have first class.

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